Topic: HHT and IRP not covering hotel stay for HHT?

[DaisyDee]

We may end up eating this, hopefully not but it sounds like we screwed up. We flew in to Ottawa and stayed overnight before heading to Petawawa the next day. We stayed in Ottawa overnight on the way back so we wouldn't have to drive in weekday traffic. We booked an extended trip at the encouragement (nearly insistence) of our IRP rep, we were told it's much easier to prebook an extended trip than trying to extend it once we're there if need be.

Apparently you have to drive straight to Petawawa and not stay in Ottawa on your HHT if you are posted to Petawawa. There is no policy on this (I asked IRP and my husband checked with the IRP mediator).

Because of this, They won't cover anything, not even our food allowances or car rental for the days we stayed in Ottawa,  not even out of custom or personalized and not even the amount we would have received for staying in Petawawa.

Part of me thinks we should just accept we are out $800+ and move on, but part of me wonders if there is no policy guiding us or IRP on this, should we appeal? Does anyone here have experience with this?

Please don't scold me for being stupid, I realize now we should have asked, but I read the policy and move book so much I know them nearly off by heart, so I was acting in good faith at the time.

Thank you,
Daisy

[Nerf herder]

Someone didn't tell you that they only covered the geo foot print of Pet - Arnprior/ Eganville/ Deep river.

I don't know if there is any way to recoup the costs. You may be out the $800.

Regards

[AmmoTech90]

I would into the maximum travel time.  You are only expected to travel so far and for so long in a day.  Considering it is only 1:45 or 2:00 hours to Pet from Ottawa  you would have to make a good case for not making that drive after a flight within Canada.
How does two nights in Ottawa cost $800 anyway.  Are they refusing to pay anything including the stay in Pet?

[Zoomie]

If you can't get the hotels covered, you shouldn't be out the cost of food and car rental. 

What time did your flight arrive at Ottawa?  What time was your flight leaving Ottawa?

If your advisor did not adequately advise you - tell him/her to fix it.

[Strike]

I would into the maximum travel time.  You are only expected to travel so far and for so long in a day.  Considering it is only 1:45 or 2:00 hours to Pet from Ottawa  you would have to make a good case for not making that drive after a flight within Canada.
How does two nights in Ottawa cost $800 anyway.  Are they refusing to pay anything including the stay in Pet?

I think the cost also includes meals and car rental for those days.

You may be able to argue the travel-time thing if, say, you were flying in from out west and included layovers.  Maybe even depending on the time you got in to Ottawa and then to Pet.  If you got into Ottawa after regular working hours and then got to Pet before the day got going you could argue that there was no time lost on the HHT.  Really, are you going to do a walk through of a house at 2100 hrs or 0700 in the morning?

It's slime, but something to consider.  Of course, we all know how flexible IRP is, so I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

[captloadie]

IRP takes a pretty hard line on this. There have been cases in the past where members have used the extra days to take a little vacation at the crown's expense, not in the location where they were supposed to be doing the HHT. So the result is IRP denies first, and sometimes ask questions later. If you have a strong case for not being able to complete he trip in one day, you can send a memo to the Base/Wing person delegated to liaise with IRP when there is a dispute.

[Anny]

We had a similar thing happen on our HHT.  I was sick for most of the HHT, I lied in the hotel bed for over 2/3 of the trip, couldn't keep food down and ended up visiting the hospital.  We were flying out of Toronto, so on a good day when I was able to travel, since we had bought a house already and had done all we could on our HHT, we drove to Toronto and stayed there a few nights before flying out.  I stayed in the hotel room, in bed, nearly the whole time.  Big mistake!  We were denied everything for three days, and ended up out of pocket for over $1000.  I too asked where it said we had to stay near Borden, and was told there was no policy.  But I was supposed to have asked our IRP rep if we could stay in Toronto.  I had the booklets they give you with me, and since I was in bed all day anyway, I read them cover to cover and it said nothing about having to stay with in a certain area, and since we were flying out of Toronto anyway, why would we even think we were doing anything wrong??  The base liason person was awful, the memo we received back was very harsh and basically said we were not in the approved area, so they would not reimburse anything, period.  It was a hard lesson which I thought was very unfair.  I don't know if there's anything you can do at this point, and I'm so sorry you are going through the same b.s.  You would think they would put something in the damn policy by now if this is happening to a fair number of people.  I would completely understand if you took off and stayed in a totally different place than you were flying out of, but it sounds like thats not what you were doing.

[captloadie]

It is unfortunate that your HHT was not the best experience, but think of it from the CF point of view. You were being paid to do a HHT, in Borden. You decided that it was better to be sick and stay in a Hotel in TO instead of Barrie, where in theory, the service member could have been doing other stuff (getting schools set up, checking into insurance, organizing the utilities, etc.). At the least someone should have called IRP to inform them of the problem. If the posting had been Cold Lake, would you have gone to Edmonton and stayed there for 3 days until the flight out? Would you have thought it reasonable then?

I can reverse the question you posed below and ask does it say anywhere in the policy you can stay in hotels outside the geographical area of the base? 

[Anny]

Sorry I was not clear, there was one day when I was well enough to travel by car, and so we took advantage of it, considering we had taken care of the house purchase (and registering for school, getting insurance quotes, and got as much information as we could for the utilities, and a fair bit more than this), it was reasonable in our eyes to head towards Toronto.

In our case, I can certainly see the funds being denied if we travelled to say Montreal for a few days, or some other place clearly out of our travel route, expecting it to all be covered on the CF's dime, but, just as the OP stated she was, we believed we were acting in good faith and simply getting closer to the airport for our flight out.  Clearly the CF believes differently, but this does not mean I don't have a right to voice my concern about lack of policy surrounding our situation.  Like I mentioned, it was a hard lesson learned and one I would not make again.

[MJP]

Sorry I was not clear, there was one day when I was well enough to travel by car, and so we took advantage of it, considering we had taken care of the house purchase (and registering for school, getting insurance quotes, and got as much information as we could for the utilities, and a fair bit more than this), it was reasonable in our eyes to head towards Toronto.

In our case, I can certainly see the funds being denied if we travelled to say Montreal for a few days, or some other place clearly out of our travel route, expecting it to all be covered on the CF's dime, but, just as the OP stated she was, we believed we were acting in good faith and simply getting closer to the airport for our flight out.  Clearly the CF believes differently, but this does not mean I don't have a right to voice my concern about lack of policy surrounding our situation.  Like I mentioned, it was a hard lesson learned and one I would not make again.

If all that stuff is done and you can leave early you are suppose to leave early unless they have changed the policy again (note I haven't read this years policy).  From the CF/TB point of view you were in the wrong despite the best of intentions and what you thought was reasonable.  I can certainly understand being sick an not being able to travel though, so another option to explore would be for you to see if it can be covered under any health plans you have considering you could have left early but didn't as you were sick.

[DaisyDee]

Apparently we can appeal through DCBA, whoever that is, but whenever DH or I ask anyone how to do this, they scold us.  One person made me feel like they not only thought I am a complete idiot for not knowing this non-existent (at least to the point no one can show us anything concrete) policy, and that we are trying to rip off the system

What really sucks about all this is we can really use that money now as we are expecting twins!  And I am also having trouble with the pregnancies so I'm thinking I have a much more important fight on my hands right now than $800 dollars.  It still makes me angry though how we are being treated, like they assume we are criminals trying to rip off the system and that we are stupid for not knowing we can't leave the area.  They really need to put this in the IRP booklets they hand out.  I read those books from front to back many times and this is not in the section on HHT at all.  Even the IRP person confirmed this.

Maybe we can appeal later, once everything calms down with my babies, but I am doubtful we will be reimbursed anything.  Hopefully there's no time limit on appeals, does anyone here know if there's a time limit?

[CDN Aviator]

From the IRP policy manual that is available when you log in to your secure site :

The purpose of…an HHT..... is to…

secure accommodation at the new place of duty with the
intent of ensuring a door-to-door move, thereby:

Deffinition of "place of duty", as per the IRP manual :

Place of duty :

The place at which a CF member usually performs normal military duties and
includes any place in the surrounding geographical area that is determined to
be part thereof by the Chief of the Defense Staff or such other officer as shall
be designated. Lieu de service

CFB Borden geographical area ( available through the IRP website) at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/borden-eng.asp

BORDEN - ONTARIO
Description:
Start and include the city of Orillia;
Westward on a line to Warminister, Moonstone, Vasey, Wyebridge, Perkinsfield, and Wahnekewaning Beach;
Thence south along the coastline of Georgian Bay to and including Collingwood;
From Collingwood south along Hwy 24 inclusive of Shelburne to Camilla;
From Camilla eastward on a line to Hockley;
From Hockley following County Road One to Bradford;
Thence north along the Holland River;
Following the shoreline of Lake Simcoe, and back to Orillia.

[Ice97]

IRP is one of the worst things to happen to the Military in awhile....IMO.  I've had 2 moves with the Military....the first one was not through IRP and I had no problems what so ever.  The second one was through IRP....I was ready to strangle my agent before the end of it.  IRP likes to enforce all these rules and expect you to know every aspect of their policies....even when they don't.  If they don't tell you something...and you do something that isn't in the policy....they will penalize you for it...even though they should be taking the hit because they screwed up.  If I had my own way....I would not get posted again just so I wouldn't have to deal with that organization again

[Occam]

From the IRP policy manual that is available when you log in to your secure site :

Deffinition of "place of duty", as per the IRP manual :

CFB Borden geographical area ( available through the IRP website) at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/borden-eng.asp

If there's a point in there, I'm not sure what it is.  The person you posted immediately after is posted to Pet, not Borden.

Apparently we can appeal through DCBA, whoever that is, but whenever DH or I ask anyone how to do this, they scold us.  One person made me feel like they not only thought I am a complete idiot for not knowing this non-existent (at least to the point no one can show us anything concrete) policy, and that we are trying to rip off the system

Maybe we can appeal later, once everything calms down with my babies, but I am doubtful we will be reimbursed anything.  Hopefully there's no time limit on appeals, does anyone here know if there's a time limit?

DCBA = Director Compensation and Benefits Administration.  Your Orderly Room should know how to get in touch with them, as should Brookfield.

As far as time limits, the move claim is supposed to be closed one year after the move is complete.  There's the grievance process as well.  Grievances should be submitted within six months after the member becomes aware of the issue being grieved, however that time limit can be extended if there are legitimate circumstances.

[CDN Aviator]

  The person you posted immediately after is posted to Pet, not Borden.

My bad, thank you.

[kratz]

With so many IRP and Brookfield threads, I am not going to stat a new one just to ask my question.

As with any claim, actual and reasonable costs are reimbursed. The Brookfield representative is indicating they will deny
road toll receipts as we chose to travel through the USA vice the Canadian route (direct route).
When you factor in the cheaper gas, meals and hotels compared to traveling through Canada, paying the road tolls is
a small trade off IMO.

Does anyone, having traveled through the USA on a move, have any experience with this?

[SupersonicMax]

Hotel, I can buy.  The rest is paid per km (gas) or per day (meals).  No need for receipts for those.

[Zoomie]

The Brookfield representative is indicating they will deny road toll receipts as we chose to travel through the USA vice the Canadian route (direct route).

That's perfectly reasonable and per the manual.

[CDN Aviator]

hotels compared to traveling through Canada,

It makes no difference WRT hotels. You do not get a flat rate for hotels when travelling through the US, you must provide receipts and reimbursed only for actual expenses (up to the max if you had been in Canada).

Your meals and kilometric rate are paid as if you were travelling in Canada. Every other costs incurred because of travelling the US route are on your own.

[Pusser]

With so many IRP and Brookfield threads, I am not going to stat a new one just to ask my question.

As with any claim, actual and reasonable costs are reimbursed. The Brookfield representative is indicating they will deny
road toll receipts as we chose to travel through the USA vice the Canadian route (direct route).
When you factor in the cheaper gas, meals and hotels compared to traveling through Canada, paying the road tolls is
a small trade off IMO.

Does anyone, having traveled through the USA on a move, have any experience with this?

Brookfield is absolutely correct on this one.  The only one who benefits from cheaper gas and meals is you.  Because you are reimbursed a flat rate for meals and mileage, you can pocket the difference if you find a cheaper route.  I would argue that hotels are not a major consideration for a variety of reasons.  Brookfield's argument (and TreasuryBoard's for that matter) is that if you followed the intended route (i.e. through Canada) you would not have incurred the tolls and so they are not reimbursable.  Even in Canada, only necessary tolls are paid (i.e. toll roads where there are no reasonable alternative routes).

[DaisyDee]

That's perfectly reasonable and per the manual.

I'm not disputing if tolls are reimbursed or not in this persons case or not, but what manual are you referring to?  And where exactly is this?  I don't recall anything in the two IRP manuals except them saying they will reimburse for tolls.  Again again, I have to double check but I am curious if you don't mind.

[Zoomie]

BRGS has a detailed manual that delineates every single paragraph in the IRP contract.  They refer to it daily for further amplification.  In this persons case they would see that tolls/ferries/etc would only be reimbursable if and only if that route was the most direct.

[DaisyDee]

BRGS has a detailed manual that delineates every single paragraph in the IRP contract.  They refer to it daily for further amplification.  In this persons case they would see that tolls/ferries/etc would only be reimbursable if and only if that route was the most direct.

So this is a manual they do not hand out to those moving?  If so, then it should be.  There is no way one could possible know every question to ask, and I take what is in the IRP hand outs as being correct, and it states they cover toll charges.  Not "Toll charges in certain circumstances", which would have me asking more questions because I am one of the few people who actually read and re-read those IRP booklets!

I am starting to become very frustrated with the lack of clarity during a move.  It's like we're given information, in writing, then told after the fact "oh but you can't do that.... or you have to do it THIS way in order to get reimbursed".... and, like I said, there's no way you can know every question to ask.  It would get as ridiculous as "Okay, I will be reimbursed for lodging but only if my husband and I don't sleep in the same bed" or "my kids have to eat breakfast standing up to get our daily meal allowance??".  Clearly these examples are very overboard, but I bet most people understand what I am getting at.  Simply saying "there's an IRP rep there for a reason" is not good enough, because I'm not going to stay on the cell phone the whole drive to our new place giving commentary to every action so we can ensure I'm not breaking any policies.

If I was not being reimbursed for tolls because it's not the shortest direct route, if I knew ahead of time, that is fair.  If I do my due diligence by reading the IRP manuals, asking questions where things are not clear (in the case of tolls to me that is clear, I will be reimbursed) and I end up not being reimbursed for whatever reason, that is unethical in my opinion.

[CDN Aviator]

So this is a manual they do not hand out to those moving? 

It is in the IRP manual that is available from the IRP website.

[CDN Aviator]

it states they cover toll charges.  Not "Toll charges in certain circumstances",

You are wrong and probably need to read the CF IRP manual a few more times.

if I knew ahead of time, that is fair.

See my quotes below from the CF IRP manual.


From the CF IRP manual, which you had access to :

3.3.04 Tolls, ferry and parking charges

you find :

CF members are entitled to reimbursement for actual and reasonable expenses
for all tolls and ferries when incurred as a result of travel by the most direct
route.

So, in other words, you knew. It is rather clear.

[Nix]

Nothing to add about the toll bit, but I am very interested in Zoomie's comment about the detailed manual.  Is this manual available to mil pers who are doing an IRP move?

BRGS has a detailed manual that delineates every single paragraph in the IRP contract.  They refer to it daily for further amplification.  In this persons case they would see that tolls/ferries/etc would only be reimbursable if and only if that route was the most direct.

[CDN Aviator]

A-PP-005-IRP-AG-001 Canadian Forces Integrated Relocation Program Directive

Its available on the secure website when you do a cost-move. Contains just about everything you need to know about policy.

[Occam]

A-PP-005-IRP-AG-001 Canadian Forces Integrated Relocation Program Directive

Its available on the secure website when you do a cost-move. Contains just about everything you need to know about policy.

It's also available here on the internet, if you follow the link to the current year's Relocation Directive.

[Nix]

Thanks, I didn't realize it was the directive everyone was referring to.  I thought there was a policy manual of sorts beyond this.  Thanks for clarifying.