Author Topic: Honours and Awards  (Read 16443 times)

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Offline dogger1936

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #75 on: December 25, 2011, 11:51:18 »
A plague of pine beetles meets that criteria.  I'm fairly certain that the Taliban and AQ are organized in some fashion.

Agree. The Taliban we fought were well organised and I respected them. BZ to all the boys who got well deserving medals and recognition.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #76 on: December 25, 2011, 12:52:15 »
The guy responsible for all honours and awards in the CF is the CDS.  As far as I understand things, boards make recommendations and the chain of command is not obligated to heed such recommendation.  A VC would require the approval of the CO, the Task Force Comd and Comd CEFCOM on the DND 2448 and, likely, some sort of memo from the CDS before it moves to Government House for final approval (I've heard this process is largely a rubber stamp).

Infanteer- you are, as usual, pedantically correct.  However, the CDS does not do all of the research in each case nor does he  chair the board.  I've spoken to the guy who does all that and then drafts the letters for the CDS. I doubt that there are many changes after he is does his work.  However, I should have been more clear about whom I was speaking.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #77 on: December 25, 2011, 14:04:06 »
Not when coupled with scale, incidents and technology. You will not convince me that this past war is comparable to those that came before it. We no longer go in "bayonets first" for trench warfare, as a rule, unless our technology is not sufficient to sort it out before we send the troops in.

I'm not sure what you're inferring with "scale, incidents and technology" but a large degree of the technology would be recognizable to someone from a century ago.  What's more, the new stuff hasn't vastly changed things; a UAV dumping a 500-lb bomb on an enemy still means that there is a bunch of HE from overhead killing him - that it is done by a bunch of rubbernecks in Nevada is really irrelevant.  What's more, modern technology has the same problems of overcoming the opacity and cover provided by terrain (as described here); I'm sure anyone who's wandered the greenspace of Panjwayi can attest to this.

As for "bayonets first" and tactics part of things, we never went in "bayonets first" in 1916 and we still don't.  I'll let the Gunners speak to the artillery side of things, but I've researched the evolution of infantry tactics and much of what you see in today's manuals can be found in pamphlets from the First World War.  Organizations, both administratively and tactically, are recognizable, sometimes almost the same.

What's more, the quantitative research has been done, (notably here and here) on this and points (IMO) pretty convincingly to a lack in any substantial change in the conduct of battle in the last century.  So, while I may not convince you, the evidence out there points to your opinion being inaccurate.

How does it relate to the discussion?  We shouldn't assume that any evolutionary changes in the conduct of warfare have substantially altered the criteria or threshold for the awarding of a VC.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 14:15:12 by Infanteer »
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #78 on: December 25, 2011, 14:10:02 »
Infanteer- you are, as usual, pedantically correct.  However, the CDS does not do all of the research in each case nor does he  chair the board.  I've spoken to the guy who does all that and then drafts the letters for the CDS. I doubt that there are many changes after he is does his work.  However, I should have been more clear about whom I was speaking.

As I Staff Officer, I'll take "pedantically" as a compliment.   :D

I willing to bet personality plays a part in this; the Commander I work for takes interest in H&A and reviews all submissions, especially ones going to Ottawa.  I also have no doubt that, considering the gravity of an SMV or VC (only 10 SMV and no VC), when a file for this level of award comes across the desk of the CDS he probably reads into the file a bit.  That's just my guess, and I could be wrong but I'd be surprised if SMVs and VCs didn't receive the personal attention of every level of the chain of command, implying that there is more input into the process than the H&A committee.

Would be interesting to follow a file from the battlefield to Rideau Hall and see how those things really play out though.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Pusser

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #79 on: December 25, 2011, 14:11:06 »
What is interesting is that since the Canadian VC was created in 1993, not a single Canadian has been awarded it. Could it be that the Govt of Canada would not be willing to fork out the $3,000 per year that each recipient is entitled to after being awarded the VC? Where as the Cross of Valour, Star of Courage and Medal of Bravery do not entitle the recipient to any monetary annuity. With only a handful of Cross of Valour being awarded since the creation of the VC (Canada), it's actually not that suprising that there are not any recipients of the VC as it is the only award higher than the Cross of Valour. Not to take away from any of the actions of any soldier on the battlefield, but clearly for it to be awarded it would need to be an action that is "Unthinkable" or "Unimaginable" beyond any action that someone received the Cross of Valour for.

The $3000/a pension is completely irrelevant as that only applies to VCs awarded to Canadians for WWII and before.  There is no pension attached to the current Canadian VC (or any other current Canadian awards for that matter). 

It is worth noting that these awards come under a great deal of scrutiny.  After a nomination has made it through the Chain of Command, it ends up in front of the CF Decorations Advisory Committee (CFDAC), which is chaired by the CDS and includes all the Environmental Commanders.  The level of scrutiny at CFDAC is high and all nominations have the benefit (or hindrance) of all being compared to each other.  In other words, no one can accuse one organization of having different standards than another as all nominations are reviewed by the same people in the end.

Consider also the following:

1)  Modern warfare is (for lack of a better term), "safer" than in the past in that it is no longer necessary to send hundreds of men over the top in order to attain an objective.  Modern warfare uses fewer people and relies more on technology than it did in previous generations.  Now, before the dogpile starts, I'm not saying modern warfare isn't dangerous, but we do fight it differently to the point where I think there are fewer opportunities for individuals to exhibit personal valour than in the past;

2)  In keeping with the above point, we as a society are less willing to sacrifice human life for "glory" or to gain turf than we have been in the past.  The Charge of the Light Brigade would never happen today;

3)  if you look at recent awards, they are virtually all for cases where individuals go in harm's way in order to save other people, not to achieve an objective.  Capturing the enemy's colours would win you a VC at Crimea, but would be seen as foolhardy today;

4)  I think the bar has been set pretty high for a VC when you look at what we have awarded SMVs for.  I'm not sure anyone knows how much more valour will be required for a VC.

5)  comparing a VC to CV is apples to oranges.  What is considered exceptional bravery for a civilian working outside of his/her area of expertise, could be seen as routine for a trained soldier in a combat zone.  Since 1972, only about 20 CVs have been awarded and each case involved a person who could easily have saved themselves or avoided the situation, but chose not to and instead dove in and did more than anyone could ever have reasonably expected.  A soldier in combat is expected to get involved and do something.

6)  The standard for the VC has steadily risen over the years.  Modern VCs are harder to win than the original ones at Crimea were.  In fact, modern VCs are worth more at auction for that very reason.

7)  The biggest challenge will be awarding the first Canadian VC.  Once the standard has been set, others will follow.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #80 on: December 25, 2011, 14:14:12 »
Something about "GRATUITIES AND ANNUITIES" here:
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SI-90-95/page-1.html

This legislation deals strictly with the former British awards, for which Canada has assumed responsibility for Canadians.  It does not apply to any current Canadian awards, including the Canadian VC.
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #81 on: December 25, 2011, 14:21:49 »
1)  Modern warfare is (for lack of a better term), "safer" than in the past in that it is no longer necessary to send hundreds of men over the top in order to attain an objective.  Modern warfare uses fewer people and relies more on technology than it did in previous generations.  Now, before the dogpile starts, I'm not saying modern warfare isn't dangerous, but we do fight it differently to the point where I think there are fewer opportunities for individuals to exhibit personal valour than in the past;

Are we assuming that warfare has become "safer" or "different", or perhaps we simply haven't faced a peer enemy in a long enough time to appreciate what a conventional battle requires?  I will agree with you that lethality of modern weapons has forced greater and greater dispersion, but I feel a lot of what we accept as "modern warfare" are really circumstances of dreadfully outclassing most opponents since about 1951 (this includes the Iraqis and the Taliban, who are generally third rate).

As for your other points, very good and I agree with them all, especially this one:

Quote
7)  The biggest challenge will be awarding the first Canadian VC.  Once the standard has been set, others will follow.

Cheers
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #82 on: December 25, 2011, 14:27:43 »
4)  I think the bar has been set pretty high for a VC when you look at what we have awarded SMVs for.  I'm not sure anyone knows how much more valour will be required for a VC.

This is the biggest issue. We've set it so high that I don't think its attainable. Comparing some of the citations of SMV recipients to VC winners from NZ and AUS, they are remarkably similar in context and what the individual soldier accomplished.

Offline Pusser

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #83 on: December 25, 2011, 14:36:20 »
This is the biggest issue. We've set it so high that I don't think its attainable. Comparing some of the citations of SMV recipients to VC winners from NZ and AUS, they are remarkably similar in context and what the individual soldier accomplished.

Unfortunately, it is also worth noting that the citations often don't do justice to the event.  Sometimes, it's hard to describe something spectacular in 90 words or less.  CFDAC, however, has all the supporting documentation at their disposal and that can be volumes.  Two different files can clearly show a difference between two events, that is not readily apparent in a 90 word summary.
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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #84 on: December 25, 2011, 16:14:34 »
At the risk of covering ground already covered by others, the following is a slightly modified extract from a study I did re honours and awards, in this case from the Boer War, for my possible future use.

Having said all that, there is one factor that ranked above all else in determining the number of honours and awards granted. Simply, to receive an award, one had to have been nominated.  This is as true today as it was in South Africa, or in any other war in which Canadians fought for that manner. For example, during the South African War 78 Victoria Crosses were awarded to British and Empire forces. Of these, five, including three to Canadians, were awarded to members of 19 Brigade commanded by Major General Horace Smith-Dorrien for just over a year including both Paardeberg and Leliefontein. His nickname was “Half Rations, Full Congratulations” because he worked his troops and himself very hard, but also liberally recommended his officers and men for awards. It is well known in military history circles that the numbers of decorations awarded to members of a unit more often than not reflected the number of the recommendations submitted, and not necessarily the unit’s success in battle.  There is another factor which is almost as important. To be successful, any recommendation submitted must be fully documented and well-written. It must also conform to the appropriate instructions and should be as complete as possible. The more documentation, especially eye-witness accounts, included with the submission, the better.

Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #85 on: December 25, 2011, 20:47:22 »
Sorry, I forgot to mention technology. War is very different today than it was then. Even when we're up close now, we still manage to do lots from afar. It is my opinion, that these wars are incomparable --- that includes South Africa. These days, we'd simply send in the rotor heads to blow up a gun so it didn't fall into enemy hands ... you wouldn't see it being saved by someone requiring to snatch it off it's carriage and run with it to keep it from being taken.  ;)

Happy belated birthday to the RCDs too ...

Yes, you are right.  Tech makes a big difference to what can be accomplished nowadays.  Maybe I'm a softie, or maybe they were back then. But reading some of the citations from today, when I compare them to yesterdays VC citations they are just as incredible and brave acts of valour.  To my mind, I would have awarded several VC from what I have read.  Of course, I am not in a position to make a recommendation, comment etc and maybe that is a good thing.  But as I mentioned in other threads, have we not set the bar so high that a mere mortal could not/would not be recognized accordingly?  Look at Sgt Richardson from the LdSH(RC) for example.  More balls than I possess certainly, and not to belittle his act.  But come on, some of our current lads were no less brave and daring...
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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #86 on: December 26, 2011, 05:44:59 »
Yes, you are right.  Tech makes a big difference to what can be accomplished nowadays.  Maybe I'm a softie, or maybe they were back then. But reading some of the citations from today, when I compare them to yesterdays VC citations they are just as incredible and brave acts of valour.  To my mind, I would have awarded several VC from what I have read.  Of course, I am not in a position to make a recommendation, comment etc and maybe that is a good thing.  But as I mentioned in other threads, have we not set the bar so high that a mere mortal could not/would not be recognized accordingly?  Look at Sgt Richardson from the LdSH(RC) for example.  More balls than I possess certainly, and not to belittle his act.  But come on, some of our current lads were no less brave and daring...

In no way, at no time, have I belittled or suggested that acts of our troops in Afghanistan weren't incredible acts of bravery and valour.

I am only suggesting that 'opportunities' (& I hate calling it that) are much fewer and in between in our latest conflict and that our current technology does much to mitigate direct, face-to-face instances.

Yes, the bar is set extremely high. It's a VC.

I don't think it was set any lower back then; how many other Honours and Awards were distributed to Canadians for acts of valour and bravery in prior conflicts, of which a great many probably also read close to VCs? Hundreds? Whatever it is, I can almost guarantee that it is the VC that was and does remain the rare one even though, historically, Canadians won VCs at a higher per captia rate than any other nation.

Now, with stats to determine "ratios" from then - till now, you may be able to convince me otherwise, but if the stats showed that in previous conflicts we awarded "96 VCs (inclusive of Hall's and Reid's respectively - 1857 Indian Rebellion) and 3110 other awards for Military Bravery during same period" and that the stats for same from this conflict indicate that such an obvious (according to some here) discrepency and anomaly actually does exist with it's "lack" of presentation, then I may be willing to be convinced. Pulled my figures from the GGs page.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 05:48:18 by ArmyVern »
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Offline Ralph

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #87 on: December 26, 2011, 06:21:32 »
Is there any point in comparing Boer War-era citations with present day? Look at the last two Brit VCs - Beharry and Budd gave up all expectations of living to do what they did...and imagine the VCs that could have been issued in WWI if all the witnesses hadn't died along with the one who performed the gallant act...

Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #88 on: December 26, 2011, 06:56:25 »
Is there any point in comparing Boer War-era citations with present day? Look at the last two Brit VCs - Beharry and Budd gave up all expectations of living to do what they did...and imagine the VCs that could have been issued in WWI if all the witnesses hadn't died along with the one who performed the gallant act...

Exactly. Apples vs an Orange.
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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #89 on: December 26, 2011, 08:27:18 »
A couple of points re Boer War honours and awards that are moot. First, there were many, many more awards of the Distinguished Service Order (DSO) for officers and the Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM) for men along with the very few VCs. Second, the VC could not be awarded posthumously at the time, although King Edward VII changed that policy in the last stages of the war.

And regarding recommendations for awards, 2 RCRI was the only Canadian unit that served in South Africa that did not have a NCM receive a gazetted decoration. Even the 10th Canadian Field Hospital which was in theatre for a few months in 1902 had a soldier awarded the DCM. However, several officers in 2 RCRI were awarded the DSO, so recommendations for officers at least were being submitted. The Minister of Militia and Defence noticed this and Otter caught a load of crap for it. He did try to submit a recommendation for a VC for Private RR Thompson well after the event (and after Thompson had received his Queen's Scarf in the mail and then returned to South Africa in the South African Constabulary) but it got bogged down in the bureaucracy and was rejected. I believe that if a recommendation for Thompson had been submitted after Paardeberg, it very likely would have been successful.

Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #90 on: December 26, 2011, 08:49:52 »
In no way, at no time, have I belittled or suggested that acts of our troops in Afghanistan weren't incredible acts of bravery and valour.
Forgive me, but I was not suggesting or thinking that you had.

I am only suggesting that 'opportunities' (& I hate calling it that) are much fewer and in between in our latest conflict and that our current technology does much to mitigate direct, face-to-face instances.
That is a very good point, and it is not a bad thing either.  I like the idea of stand off for our guys and being able to put hurt down at a distance. 

Yes, the bar is set extremely high. It's a VC.

I don't think it was set any lower back then; how many other Honours and Awards were distributed to Canadians for acts of valour and bravery in prior conflicts, of which a great many probably also read close to VCs? Hundreds? Whatever it is, I can almost guarantee that it is the VC that was and does remain the rare one even though, historically, Canadians won VCs at a higher per captia rate than any other nation.

Now, with stats to determine "ratios" from then - till now, you may be able to convince me otherwise, but if the stats showed that in previous conflicts we awarded "96 VCs (inclusive of Hall's and Reid's respectively - 1857 Indian Rebellion) and 3110 other awards for Military Bravery during same period" and that the stats for same from this conflict indicate that such an obvious (according to some here) discrepency and anomaly actually does exist with it's "lack" of presentation, then I may be willing to be convinced. Pulled my figures from the GGs page.

Agreed, the bar should be high.  From what I have read of citations for the high level decorations (VC, SMV, MMV and earlier awards DSC, MM, MC etc) they all were of course stand out acts of selfless heroism and at times self sacrifice.  As such, when consideration is given to the weight it must be like splitting hairs and I don't envy the selection board.

As many of the VC awards were posthumous, I would be happier to think that our people come home alive for a SMV or MMV in that they would not have been put into situations of VC award considerations in the first place.  Which goes back to your stand off situations of bringing hurt down at a distance.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #91 on: December 26, 2011, 09:42:20 »
Whatever it is, I can almost guarantee that it is the VC that was and does remain the rare one even though, historically, Canadians won VCs at a higher per captia rate than any other nation.

Canadian V.C.'s were rare in World War Two. For example, of the 10,659 members of the RCAF killed in Bomber Command, only one was awarded the Victoria Cross. 


Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #92 on: December 26, 2011, 10:54:40 »
Canadian V.C.'s were rare in World War Two. For example, of the 10,659 members of the RCAF killed in Bomber Command, only one was awarded the Victoria Cross.

Understood. I had edited my previous post after visiting the GG site. 96 VCs awarded along with 3110 "other" decorations for bravery in previous wars; about 3%, 3 per 100 bravery medals awarded was a VC in previous conflicts.

I'm not sure we've even awarded 100 from this conflict yet, so I'm not seeing anything to back up the comments that infer that we've now made the standard too high or are being stingey etc (even IF we had the same volume of "daily" opportunities --- which we certainly didn't have in this conflict).
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 10:57:35 by ArmyVern »
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #93 on: December 26, 2011, 10:56:19 »
They have similar issues in the US with delays and the 'bar being too high" with the MoH:

Medal of Honor takes moment to earn, years to receive

For Sal Giunta's actions more than three years ago, he will be awarded the Medal of Honor.In most cases when a soldier does something extraordinarily brave in battle, it happens in a matter of moments. But to reward that bravery often takes years.

Spc. Sal Giunta went above and beyond the call of duty on October 25, 2007, when he helped thwart an ambush and stopped two Taliban fighters from capturing a fellow solider. But it will be November 16, 2010, when now Staff Sgt. Giunta received the Medal of Honor from President Obama, a wait of more than three years


http://articles.cnn.com/2010-11-16/us/medal.of.honor.giunta.process_1_medal-of-honor-recommendation-second-highest-medal-proper-recognition?_s=PM:US
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Honours and Awards
« Reply #94 on: December 26, 2011, 15:27:23 »
Keep in mind that a good part of the delay in awarding decorations is a direct result of the scrutiny in the process.  If the court of public opinion (or the uninformed masses if you like) weren't so quick to denigrate, doubt and trash everything, perhaps the process wouldn't be so slow.  CFDAC sits once a month, so it's not like these files are sitting around gathering dust forever.  The process simply takes that long.
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Offline tacmed2007

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Re: Cpl Tony Harris awarded Medal of Military Valour
« Reply #95 on: January 01, 2012, 21:23:37 »
Very interesting story...mind you there is a very different story from the US army Medics that ran that very base....hmmm

Offline Jammer

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Re: Cpl Tony Harris awarded Medal of Military Valour
« Reply #96 on: January 01, 2012, 22:14:23 »
If you weren't there...button it and either offer congrats or begone
What could possibly go wrong?

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Re: Cpl Tony Harris awarded Medal of Military Valour
« Reply #97 on: January 01, 2012, 22:15:35 »
If you weren't there...button it and either offer congrats or begone

AGREED!!   :+1:

Well done Cpl Harris!!!!!  :salute:
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Re: Cpl Tony Harris awarded Medal of Military Valour
« Reply #98 on: January 01, 2012, 22:18:18 »
Very interesting story...mind you there is a very different story from the US army Medics that ran that very base....hmmm

Is it a story you'd like to personally put your name behind? Or will it suffice to suggest politely that you bugger off?
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Re: Cpl Tony Harris awarded Medal of Military Valour
« Reply #99 on: January 01, 2012, 23:29:45 »
Cool read...Very brave and well deserved, congrats!
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