Author Topic: Chronic Sea Sickness Test  (Read 5681 times)

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Offline Cleric515

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Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« on: July 05, 2011, 20:05:52 »
so after a couple sails, it has come to the attention of my PA that i be tested for chronic sea sickness. I am curious as to what these tests are, people have told me some weird stuff they do but I'd like to get some info from someone who actually knows or who has been through the process

Offline Pieman

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2011, 20:18:26 »
I don't know anything about the tests, however served in Afghanistan with a Sailor who had Chronic sea sickness. He got so sick on the water that he could not sail, which is not a good thing when you are in the Navy. Not much you can do for work if you are sick and puking your guts up I suppose.  They tasked him to the gym and dish washing on the base, and he did that for a few *years*. Then he somehow landed a gig overseas.

I did not understand why he would not just OT or pull out of the forces, but refused to leave because he liked the paycheck.  Minus his time overseas, it seems like such a waste of time, IMHO.

Anyway, I hope your circumstances are much better than his.
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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2011, 21:31:58 »
I don't know anything about the tests, however served in Afghanistan with a Sailor who had Chronic sea sickness. He got so sick on the water that he could not sail, which is not a good thing when you are in the Navy. Not much you can do for work if you are sick and puking your guts up I suppose.  They tasked him to the gym and dish washing on the base, and he did that for a few *years*. Then he somehow landed a gig overseas.

I did not understand why he would not just OT or pull out of the forces, but refused to leave because he liked the paycheck.  Minus his time overseas, it seems like such a waste of time, IMHO.

Anyway, I hope your circumstances are much better than his.

Odd......most chronics we have had over the past few years are not left hanging like that. Those that I know of were tested by a doctor and those that were chronics were either retained and given an OT or released. All within a year and at most a year and a half.
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Offline BernDawg

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2011, 22:19:32 »
Odds are that the guy left hanging around washing dishes etc. was not qualified in trade so they couldn't be re-mustered. I worked with and for a guy that didn't want to give up on his sea trade and was basically ordered to re-muster due to chronic sea-sickness. We're just lucky he picked our trade.
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Offline kawa11

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2011, 09:14:45 »
The CF's all about booting people that get seasick, eh?
Hopefully, they're not as quick to toss out Purple-traded individuals and opt for transfers to land.

Couldn't members just use Scopolamine patches?

Offline MJP

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2011, 09:19:29 »
The CF's all about booting people that get seasick, eh?

They aren't, you have just failed to read what three people have said so far about them getting transfers to other trades.  Release is an option but it ain't what the CF is "all about"

Maybe some listening silence is in order?  Or maybe a lane change to the one you know about?
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Offline Jim Seggie

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2011, 09:30:45 »
The CF's all about booting people that get seasick, eh?
Hopefully, they're not as quick to toss out Purple-traded individuals and opt for transfers to land.

Couldn't members just use Scopolamine patches?

I see you're getting some PT in - jumping to conclusions. Stop it.
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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2011, 09:33:22 »
I see you're getting some PT in - jumping to conclusions....

Zing!  :rofl:

I'm stealing that!
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Offline Occam

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2011, 09:35:20 »
Couldn't members just use Scopolamine patches?

Ah, the panic button.  Not everyone responds to the patches, Gravol (oral or injection) and other treatments - hence the term "chronic seasickness".

There is no misery like someone who is chronic seasick - there is nowhere on the ship to go to escape it.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2011, 10:27:04 »
There are different levels of "chronic" seasickness.

I have had a very successful 24+ years at sea career while "chronic". I had to be on the high dose gravol pills all the time, but otherwise was fine.  Bonus: It kept me from any temptation to drink at sea or on the day before any sailing.

On the other hand, I remember a then MARS but future log officer on my MARS II course who was so bad, it even became a serious psychological problem. He became useless the second we let the lines go (at least, I did not need pills on calm waters such as inside Vancouver Island). One time on board MACKENZIE we were scheduled to sail at three in the AM from Esquimalt, but ran into boilers problem - so they let the MARS II sleep in. When they piped wakey-wakey, he was sick as a dog while in harbour and did not believe us when we told him we were still alongside - until we dragged him on deck and he immediately recovered. He did not complete the sea phase before remuster :) .

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2011, 10:27:26 »
There is no misery like someone who is chronic seasick - there is nowhere on the ship to go to escape it.

This is very true. I know from first hand experience! But I got over it using the scopolamine patch.
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Offline Pieman

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2011, 11:56:42 »
Quote
Odd......most chronics we have had over the past few years are not left hanging like that. Those that I know of were tested by a doctor and those that were chronics were either retained and given an OT or released. All within a year and at most a year and a half.
I don't know his circumstances exactly. My impression was that he did not want to deal with being sick at sea, and he loved working in the gym (he is a very fit guy). So it may have been more his influence for staying where he was than the chain of commands....until he was put on dish washing duty that is. (He didn't like that so much)
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2011, 12:04:30 »
Seasickness varies from person to person.  Although a few people claim to have never been seasick, I've always figured most of them are lying.  By the same token, few people are actually chronically seasick (i.e. so sick all the time so that they cannot function).  It is truly a miserable feeling as there really is no place to go to get relief (although they have been known to send folks up in the helicopter in an attempt to do so).

As the effects of seasickness vary, so do the cures.  Bonamine or Gravol can be effective, but also tend to cause drowsiness .  I've heard folks rave about the "West Coast Command Badge" (scopalmine patch), but I know that also cause wild hallucinations for others.  I've know people who swear by the "Sea-Band," which is a wrist band with a marble in it that puts pressure on a acupuncture point.  For some folks one or all of these methods work and for others, none of them work.  My own personal experience is that Bonamine or Gravol both work quite well as long as I don't need to do anything that requires me staying awake.  However, what works best of all for me is to sail on a clear calm day.  If we start the trip when it's calm, I'll be fine after the first day, no matter how rough it gets.  But, if we sail directly into crap, I'll be sick unless I've taken some Bonamine ahead of time.

A few hints:

1)  The ocean makes a difference.  Waves form differently in the  Atlantic and Pacific and this has an effect on seasickness.  I've never chucked my guts in the Pacific, but have several times in the Atlantic.  For others the opposite is true.

2)  Now matter how bad you feel, EAT SOMETHING.  This is the hardest thing to get across to people.  Having an empty stomach will NOT prevent you from throwing up, but it will make it more painful.  Dry heaves hurt like hell and can cause damage.  Having something in your stomach makes it less painful.  Dry crackers or plain bread is really good for this as they are easier to choke down (and softer coming up  :nod:).

3)  Gravol or Bonamine only work if you take them at least a half an hour BEFORE the motion starts and BEFORE you feel sick.  If you take them after the ship departs they won't be as effective and if you already feel sick, won't work at all.  In fact, taking them after you start to feel sick will often trigger vomiting as your gag reflex is hyper-sensitive at that point and they taste really bad.

4)  If you're on the upper decks (fresh air and seeing the horizon can help), make sure you understand the difference between windward and leeward and vomit accordingly.

5)  Seasickness is a common affliction and you will rarely get a lot of sympathy.  You are still expected to stand your watches.  Remember that the guy you're supposed to relieve on watch may feel just as bad as you - don't make him/her wait.

6)  Clean up your own mess.

7)  Prevent that mess by carrying a plastic garbage bag with you.  Traditionally, plastic garbage bags in the Navy are clear, because we all like to see what people had for lunch that day! ;D
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Offline medicineman

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2011, 12:41:43 »
I have a minor thing to add to that - Bonamine is no longer in the system.  The company that makes it in Canada stopped making it, so now I have to beg, borrow or bribe it from the Americans when they're here or get folks to buy some in Seattle when they pop in for what ever reason.  We did manage to get a pharmacy here to make capsules of it for us, however, some people in Ottawa found out and lost their minds, since it was sole sourced and no proper bidding war was started so was kiboshed...if it makes sense, yes we do the opposite.  It now has to be presribed by an MO and the pharmacist will order it it from where ever.

There is new extended release Gravol tablet I'm pushing to the dive crews that seems to do well with them without snowing them out.  Another thing I can say if you don't have extended release Gravol is try taking a half tablet at a time or take it on a full stomach - it slows the absorption down a bit so it doesn't hit you like a ton of bricks.  Like Pusser said, you have to take it BEFORE you start sailing (or flying), as you'll just end up gacking the pills back up.  If you don't like needles, Gravol also comes in suppositories, which are generally quite quick acting, if you get to the point where nothing is staying in.

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline Pat in Halifax

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2011, 13:13:08 »
Seasickness varies from person to person.  Although a few people claim to have never been seasick, I've always figured most of them are lying.  ;D
I am probably one of those liars. To me getting sick is throwing up and though VERY close on several occasions, it has yet to happen.  As mentioned in another thread on here somewhere, many of us are too mad to get sick (can't shower, can't sleep, can't stay in a chair...). As odd (and selfish) as it may sound, if there was someone around me who was worse off than me, I automatically felt a little better.
One hint that goes without saying (to the younger crowd) - Don't go on a bender the night before sailing....especially if you are headed for shitty weather!
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Offline medicineman

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2011, 13:25:29 »
Sea sickness is a really weird continuum - some people just get tired for a couple of days, others are gacking their guts out and everything in between.  Each to their own...literally.  I think I've just been lucky, since my sailing time is limited to a day and a half driving to Rocky Point and back on OTT, a couple of day sails on REG, and the dive boats...looking forward to a tender trip, since they're a tad top heavy and shallow draft  ;D.  Ferry trips to/from the mainland don't count around here as far as I'm concerned.  A buddy of mine's frist trip on his frigate was straight out of harbour into a Sea State 6+ gale - apparently almost a third of the crew were just done in, including him.

MM 
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline MCG

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2011, 13:41:42 »
Odds are that the guy left hanging around washing dishes etc. was not qualified in trade so they couldn't be re-mustered.
Why would you assume such a foolish cause?  Personnel are regularly occupationally transferred before being qualified in the enrolled occupation.  It happens all the time when PATs become medically unfit occupation but meet universality of service, when trainees fail out of an occupation's training, and even voluntarily when a PAT indicates they have no desire to proceed in their current occupation.

Offline Pieman

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2011, 14:12:25 »
Quote
make sure you understand the difference between windward and leeward and vomit accordingly.
Ha ha, please provide a video demonstration of this. :D
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Offline Occam

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2011, 15:05:42 »
Sea sickness is a really weird continuum - some people just get tired for a couple of days, others are gacking their guts out and everything in between.  Each to their own...literally.  I think I've just been lucky, since my sailing time is limited to a day and a half driving to Rocky Point and back on OTT, a couple of day sails on REG, and the dive boats...looking forward to a tender trip, since they're a tad top heavy and shallow draft  ;D.  Ferry trips to/from the mainland don't count around here as far as I'm concerned.  A buddy of mine's frist trip on his frigate was straight out of harbour into a Sea State 6+ gale - apparently almost a third of the crew were just done in, including him.

You're absolutely right about it being something very individual.  I never had a problem with seasickness (or a beer at sea!) through steamers (lots of pitch, not so much roll), 280s (lots of roll due to the wind and them being top heavy, not so much pitch) and tankers (bomb on 'til morning at 20 knots, flat as a board).  That is until I encountered a tanker at 30% fuel load.  Some sort of funky corkscrew motion with a little wiggle thrown in for good measure.  I never actually hurled, but I didn't enjoy my beer!   ;D

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2011, 17:06:16 »
Pusser had some very good advice up there.

I've sailed on Steamers, 280's, and CPF's, and the only time I've gotten anything more than tired, was my own fault. 

Slight lactose intolerance + Milk + Raisin Bran = unhappy tummy

I've learned from that, and avoid milk at sea entirely now.

I actually enjoy rougher weather, it means people focus on the tasks that are important. 

I did actually suggest when MON was heading out storm-chasing for the MHP trials a couple years back that we buy a couple boxes of black gash bags just so we wouldn't have to "share the view" with everyone else....the buffer listened, but the supply department failed to get them in, so I bought a box myself to hand out. 

I'm that kind of a guy....  :-)

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Online Chief Stoker

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2011, 18:16:28 »
I generally don't get sick , however at times I do get extremely tired from the motion. The Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels that I primarily sailed on during my career are the worst platforms for stability in heavy seas and they roll a lot. We have had regular force that sailed with us that never got sick on CPF's throughout their careers get sick on the our ships, its a very different roll.

Here's a few pics from our trip to Europe a few years ago. The highest waves we hit was 16 meters and the most we rolled was about 38 degrees. We did well but there was some white knuckle times to be sure. Lots of clear garbage bags too ;D





"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Hammer Sandwich

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2011, 18:27:26 »

Here's a few pics from our trip to Europe a few years ago.

(Images)


THAT IS THE F-ING SCARIEST THING I'VE EVER SEEN!

And that's why I picked LAND.
(I'd rather sleep on an anthill every night for a year that deal with ONE DAY of THAT.)

See, Read and heed, prospective Seaman!

Holy God....I'm nauseated just from looking @ those pics...
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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2011, 18:35:27 »
Bear in mind we are significantly smaller than a CPF and no that's not a good thing either.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 18:39:24 by Chief Stoker »
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Hammer Sandwich

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2011, 18:41:08 »
Bear in mind we are significantly smaller than a CPF and no that's not a good thing either.

Yeah...but I get spinny on the Ferry from Dartmouth to Halifax....

(please refrain from re-posting in "womanly" or "dumbest thing" threads).... :)
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2011, 19:32:07 »
and tankers (bomb on 'til morning at 20 knots, flat as a board).  That is until I encountered a tanker at 30% fuel load.  Some sort of funky corkscrew motion with a little wiggle thrown in for good measure.  I never actually hurled, but I didn't enjoy my beer!   ;D

I beg to differ Occam! In the early/mid 2000s I was a member of Preservers ships company. When the Freddy and the Iroquois were headed to the gulf, you know the trip when the Iroquois lost her bird? That was gale force to hurricane state weather. We were having waves break over the bridge windows on pitches and dipping the gunnels on rolls. We had to flake out hawsers to try and combat the water that came in the dispersal area from washing down into number 6 stores.

We lost every computer in supply and most of our bolted down filing cabinets broke away, one taking out a storesman who had her ankle broken. The fridges and freezer were in shambles but the store rooms hung on all right. This all happened with a proper secure for sea done as well.

On a side note when the storesman broke her ankle, a hull tech tore his ACL/MC while coming up the ladder from 21 port and starboard mess, trying to respond to the casualty alarm, by being thrown off the ladder by a violent roll.

Funny enough it was so rough and violent that it had the opposite effect on me and I felt no feelings of sea sickness.
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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2011, 20:13:18 »
THAT IS THE F-ING SCARIEST THING I'VE EVER SEEN!

And that's why I picked LAND.
(I'd rather sleep on an anthill every night for a year that deal with ONE DAY of THAT.)

See, Read and heed, prospective Seaman!

Holy God....I'm nauseated just from looking @ those pics...


Looks like a blast to me, but I guess that's why I picked Sea.   >:D

Offline medicineman

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2011, 20:14:48 »
I'll quote you on that Stacked...while eating pizza in your face as you're gacking everywhere  ;D.

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2011, 20:18:40 »
Bear in mind we are significantly smaller than a CPF and no that's not a good thing either.

Coming back from Hawaii in Feb 07 on a CPF we kissed 50 degrees on more than one occasion; 40 was routine.  That bridge shot looks about the same.  The year before on the same transit, the same ship allegedly hit 60*, although I don't think the roll gauge thingy goes that high (I wasn't on board).  It sure as hell didn't help that we were dragging a shaft and could only make about 8 knots.

Man I'm glad I'm in the air force now - a few hours at a time of bouncing around, instead of two weeks 24/7.

Offline Hammer Sandwich

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2011, 20:22:05 »
Looks like a blast to me, but I guess that's why I picked Sea.   >:D

Sick-arsed-sob...... :)

All a y'all NAVY fellas are........

Do none of ya know the delight of digging in, sleeping in, rolling in, and...loving LAND....J/K

I'd never have the sack for it, good on ya'!  :salute:

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Offline BernDawg

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2011, 21:41:25 »
Why would you assume such a foolish cause?  Personnel are regularly occupationally transferred before being qualified in the enrolled occupation.  It happens all the time when PATs become medically unfit occupation but meet universality of service, when trainees fail out of an occupation's training, and even voluntarily when a PAT indicates they have no desire to proceed in their current occupation.
Why? Because I've seen it before. Perhaps more than a few years ago but I have seen it.  Pat's weren't re-mustered back in the day either so I may, indeed, be out of touch but I maintain that it's a plausible scenario.
"We can't all be heroes... because someone has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by."  Will Rogers
Someone has to be last.  At least if it's me I know where all the assholes are.

Offline MCG

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2011, 22:08:59 »
... I maintain that it's a plausible scenario.
It is not a plausible scenario.

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2011, 04:44:19 »
Chief Stoker, those are some pretty cool pics.

I've seen 42.6 degrees...ish.

Good fun.

NS
Insert disclaimer statement here....

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2011, 06:04:06 »
Chief Stoker, those are some pretty cool pics.

I've seen 42.6 degrees...ish.

Good fun.

NS

When we rolled over to 39 degrees we also suffered a total loss of propulsion due to the thrusters coming out of the water and overspeeding. I happened to be out on the sweepdeck with 6 other pers including the CO trying to resecure some oil barrels and such. When the engineering emergency was piped made it inside going through water up to my waist, fun times. That's the closest brush with going over the side I ever had.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2011, 10:11:50 »
YARRRRR! lol
Never forget that no military leader has ever become great without audacity. 
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Offline NavalMoose

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2011, 12:00:33 »
Having sailed in ships ranging from MCDVs to Aircraft Carriers I can say that luckily for me I never got physically sick. There were many times when I felt lousy but I never puked. It can be very tiring when you can't sleep properly and still have to time the ladders going up or down to get to work or your watch.  Mostly enjoyed every minute though.

Offline Pusser

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2011, 12:59:57 »
Sick-arsed-sob...... :)

All a y'all NAVY fellas are........

Do none of ya know the delight of digging in, sleeping in, rolling in, and...loving LAND....J/K

I'd never have the sack for it, good on ya'!  :salute:

The only trouble with those holes is that the sides are covered in dirt,  EWWW!

Sitting down to dinner at a table everynight with proper cutlery and crockery is damn civilized,  :nod: even if it does occasionally fly across the room at you, along with a table full of food.  Flying cutlery, food and sub-lieutenants make for a good evening's entertainment! ;D

I do, however, question the decision to put "The Perfect Storm" on the big screen when we're getting the crap kicked out of us on one trip.  It was right up there with singing "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" during a Channel Fever party years ago...
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2011, 13:37:16 »
Sick-arsed-sob...... :)

All a y'all NAVY fellas are........

Do none of ya know the delight of digging in, sleeping in, rolling in, and...loving LAND....J/K

I'd never have the sack for it, good on ya'!  :salute:

My first training Petty Officer made it clear to us that "if god had meant for us to be pongos, we would have been born with shovels instead of hands and lots of pockets." ;)

BTW, my worst roll memory is from PORTE DAUPHINE. When the Fisheries Dept operated her on the great lakes, they refitted the after cabins and for completely unknown (and unnatural) reasons put all the bunks atwartship instead of fore-and-aft. One night we got caught in a big storm off the Queen Charlotte's and had to turn 180 so got beam to for a short while: I remember suddenly waking up wondering why I was standing up in my bunk while I just saw the shadow of my solid oak desk popping the four screws holding it down and literally falling from the now deckhead of my cabin into the cabin door (now acting as deck).

I learned a few hours later that we maxed out on the angle indicator, which tops at 60 degrees on a Gate Vessel. Thank god they were some of the most seaworthy little vessels out there.
 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 14:18:05 by Oldgateboatdriver »

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Re: Chronic Sea Sickness Test
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2011, 19:09:15 »
Having sailed in ships ranging from MCDVs to Aircraft Carriers I can say that luckily for me I never got physically sick. There were many times when I felt lousy but I never puked. It can be very tiring when you can't sleep properly and still have to time the ladders going up or down to get to work or your watch.  Mostly enjoyed every minute though.

I only got physically ill on one sail, but it was over the course of almost the entire trip.  Very strange seas that gave the CPF a nasty, 280-like roll.  I couldn't keep anything down and in the end, had to get the gravol shot.  The final straw was when I tore out of the ops room to go to the sea head, which was in use, and then tried to get to the heads outside the cave but didn't make it.  Saltines and water everywhere.  Yes, I cleaned it up.

I hadn't experienced anything like it before, or since, and I've got a few sea miles under my belt - it definitely gave me an appreciation of what a true chronic seasick person feels, and it's absolutely miserable.

And to pay a little more attention to the thread topic, the Esquimalt BPSO site has the procedures for chronic seasick pers, which is basically they will start the reassignment process as soon as a local MO signs off, before the official med cat change comes from Ottawa (which can take a while).  No mention of releasing people.  I can't personally recall seeing someone released for seasickness if he or she didn't want it - sometimes the reassignment choices can be a little unpalatable/unexciting.