Topic: Need memo assistance

[ballz]

I would also like to see you piss in somebody's cornflakes... I have nothing to add really except for an additional supportive shove

[medicineman]

About all I can add is that not long ago, I was asked if I wanted to volunteer for a tasking to teach at CFSCE.  I thought about it briefly, but said no.  In retrospect, am I ever glad I turned it down.  If they can't manage a cease shaving chit without resorting to skull**ckery like that, I'd hate to see how CFSCE deals with personnel on a grander scale.

I saw lots of issues like that when I was in Kngston...had a guy get sent to sick parade because he was a non-smoker stuck in a room with 3 smokers (when they could smoke in their rooms).  The Sqn Clerk was too lazy to make a room change, so told him he needed a chit from us to change rooms - I wrote him one.  20 minutes later I got hauled into the Clinic WO's office because I wrote "This isn't a medical issue, it's your's so do your f*&king job".  Apparently Cpl Med A's aren't supposed say that to Sgt Clerks, even if it's true.  I could go on, but I think the point is made about CFSCE.

This young MCpl has to learn his place though by the sound of things...resubmit the memo .

MM

[LoKe]

I received clarification on the issue today.  My course director told me that since I dressed it to the Tp WO, and not higher, than it was delegated down to him to have my memo denied.  This was decided by the RSM, and I was told I could redress my memo but it would be denied by the RSM himself.  Rather than waste anyone's time or effort doing something that would lead to the same result, I've decided to cease my efforts.  Once I'm qualified and posted I'll be sure to submit another memo and keep a copy this time.

[Occam]

I received clarification on the issue today.  My course director told me that since I dressed it to the Tp WO, and not higher, than it was delegated down to him to have my memo denied.  This was decided by the RSM, and I was told I could redress my memo but it would be denied by the RSM himself.  Rather than waste anyone's time or effort doing something that would lead to the same result, I've decided to cease my efforts.  Once I'm qualified and posted I'll be sure to submit another memo and keep a copy this time.

Now this is going way beyond plain silliness.  If I understand correctly, and I hope I am, your course director (who I presume is a MCpl/Sgt) told you that since you addressed it to the wrong person (the Tp WO), and not to someone who actually has the authority to grant the request, then somehow the RSM has gotten involved and directed the Tp WO to deny the request, even though the Tp WO doesn't have the authority to grant or deny it in the first place?  That this is all being caused because it was wrongly addressed in the first place?  But according to your earlier post, your course staff was who told you to address the memo to your Tp WO?

I was told from my staff to dress it up to the Tp WO when I asked.  I'll redress it to the proper authority and find out what the result is.

WTF?

If everything is as you've presented it, then I'm floored.  I'm just floored.

[LoKe]

I'm floored too, but if I push the matter any further it'll only make my situation worse than it has already become.

[Retired AF Guy]

Now this is going way beyond plain silliness.  If I understand correctly, and I hope I am, your course director (who I presume is a MCpl/Sgt) told you that since you addressed it to the wrong person (the Tp WO), and not to someone who actually has the authority to grant the request, then somehow the RSM has gotten involved and directed the Tp WO to deny the request, even though the Tp WO doesn't have the authority to grant or deny it in the first place?  That this is all being caused because it was wrongly addressed in the first place?  But according to your earlier post, your course staff was who told you to address the memo to your Tp WO?

WTF?

If everything is as you've presented it, then I'm floored.  I'm just floored.

Ahhh...Catch-22.

[Jim Seggie]

I'm floored too, but if I push the matter any further it'll only make my situation worse than it has already become.

I quite agree. Pick your battles wisely. If you won this one, the call would go out that you are a shyte disturber and that would do you no good.

[Simian Turner]

Did/does the course have Joining Instructions?  Is there a Course Senior binder?  School Routine Orders?

Let's cut to the chase - this thread began two weeks ago.   Your request has gone up the chain and was denied.  Are you clean shaven or do you still have beard?  How long is your course?  How long do want to stay on the instructor's problem child radar?  It is hot and humid, why not opt for a clean shaven low profile until the course is done.

At this point are you still sporting a beard, still want to challenge the system and want to jeopardize your QL3 qualification and perhaps your future in the military - take the risk, ask to speak to the RSM then tell him to charge you and let the CO or Delegated Officer decide. 

I would sooner be a grayman than a problem child.

[ModlrMike]

...I was told I could redress my memo but it would be denied by the RSM himself. 

The RSM doesn't have the authority to deny a grievance addressed to the CO.

Given the amount of canine copulating this issue has resulted in, I suggest you comply and move on. Once you get to your unit, you'll be on much firmer ground. I still have to ask what your ID card picture looks like; that should have settle the question.

[Occam]

Did/does the course have Joining Instructions?  Is there a Course Senior binder?  School Routine Orders?

Let's cut to the chase - this thread began two weeks ago.   Your request has gone up the chain and was denied.  Are you clean shaven or do you still have beard?  How long is your course?  How long do want to stay on the instructor's problem child radar?  It is hot and humid, why not opt for a clean shaven low profile until the course is done.

At this point are you still sporting a beard, still want to challenge the system and want to jeopardize your QL3 qualification and perhaps your future in the military - take the risk, ask to speak to the RSM then tell him to charge you and let the CO or Delegated Officer decide. 

I would sooner be a grayman than a problem child.

This is the type of response that gets my goat.

If the issue were a gray area of policy, I would agree with you.

However, it's not a gray area.  He's in a Naval uniform, not posted to a sea-going unit (beards are verboten at sea now), and has requested to cease shaving as he was directed by his course staff.  He has complied with every directive and criterion for having a beard.  I'll assume the beard looks presentable, and that this isn't a case of being directed to shave because he looks like a vagrant.  It's not like he's asking for gender reassignment surgery, he's requesting to cease shaving.  Every other unit in the CF has an established policy for dealing with this, but CFSCE wants to march to the beat of its own drummer.

Nobody should be chastised nor marked as a shyte disturber for following established procedure.  Someone in his chain of command needs to go to bat for him, but it appears that people are going out of their way to put roadblocks up.  That's poor leadership, period.

[recceguy]

So he requested to cease shaving and was denied, as he is on course. The course has decided no beards. I wasn't aware that everyone who is in the navy is 'entitled' to grow a beard, under any circumstance or at any time they wished, save for sea duty apparently, just because they are sea element. He requested, he was denied by his superiors. He can try again after course, with his new CoC.

[ModlrMike]

So he requested to cease shaving and was denied, as he is on course. The course has decided no beards. I wasn't aware that everyone who is in the navy is 'entitled' to grow a beard, under any circumstance or at any time they wished, save for sea duty apparently, just because they are sea element. He requested, he was denied by his superiors. He can try again after course, with his new CoC.

The point is not so much that he was denied; that's a quite reasonable outcome. The issue is he was denied by those not in authority to do so. A much different kettle of fish.

[CDN Aviator]

The point is not so much that he was denied; that's a quite reasonable outcome. The issue is he was denied by those not in authority to do so. A much different kettle of fish.

Could the CO not have delegated that authority down to the RSM ?

[Simian Turner]

This is the type of response that gets my goat.

If the issue were a gray area of policy, I would agree with you.

However, it's not a gray area.  He's in a Naval uniform, not posted to a sea-going unit (beards are verboten at sea now), and has requested to cease shaving as he was directed by his course staff.  He has complied with every directive and criterion for having a beard.  I'll assume the beard looks presentable, and that this isn't a case of being directed to shave because he looks like a vagrant.  It's not like he's asking for gender reassignment surgery, he's requesting to cease shaving.  Every other unit in the CF has an established policy for dealing with this, but CFSCE wants to march to the beat of its own drummer.

Nobody should be chastised nor marked as a shyte disturber for following established procedure.  Someone in his chain of command needs to go to bat for him, but it appears that people are going out of their way to put roadblocks up.  That's poor leadership, period.

I think that gathering advice through an online anonymous forum to counter a chain of command's decision is risky.  We have met the original intent of the poster - "Memo assistance", it was not "Could you please help me sort out my School".

This is not helpful - "Every other unit in the CF has an established policy for dealing with this.."  Are you sure 'every' is the appropriate word choice, have you personally checked every unit?  This individual has not yet completed his QL3 training.  He is on a purple trades training (i.e., all three elements are represented).  In my experience (more than 10 years at Recruit and Combat Arms schools) it is easier to maintain a single standard for male grooming.

Next we will be advising that he can wear a black undershirt despite his staff telling him otherwise.  I think we have to remember that School settings are often different from units.

[NEM3sis]

I think that gathering advice through an online anonymous forum to counter a chain of command's decision is risky.  We have met the original intent of the poster - "Memo assistance", it was not "Could you please help me sort out my School".

This is not helpful - "Every other unit in the CF has an established policy for dealing with this.."  Are you sure 'every' is the appropriate word choice, have you personally checked every unit?  This individual has not yet completed his QL3 training.  He is on a purple trades training (i.e., all three elements are represented).  In my experience (more than 10 years at Recruit and Combat Arms schools) it is easier to maintain a single standard for male grooming.

Next we will be advising that he can wear a black undershirt despite his staff telling him otherwise.  I think we have to remember that School settings are often different from units.

black undershirt is already a go since we have to wear our NCD
I am on my QL5, same trade, same building.
all the Navy personnel on my course are from the same (field) unit where our dress of the day is Cadpat, we resquested thru a memo to be allowed to wear our unit dress of the day as we are attache-posted to CFSCE unlike QL3's...request was denied by our course director (PO2) the day he was wearing CADPAT...go figure 

[Occam]

black undershirt is already a go since we have to wear our NCD
I am on my QL5, same trade, same building.
all the Navy personnel on my course are from the same (field) unit where our dress of the day is Cadpat, we resquested thru a memo to be allowed to wear our unit dress of the day as we are attache-posted to CFSCE unlike QL3's...request was denied by our course director (PO2) the day he was wearing CADPAT...go figure 

I know I'm going to regret asking this question, but here goes:

Does the PO2 course director (or any of the other "Naval" attired members of the staff) sport a beard?

[NEM3sis]

actually now that you mention it the new QL5 course director, another PO2 (posting season eh) does have a beard

[Occam]

actually now that you mention it the new QL5 course director, another PO2 (posting season eh) does have a beard

Why yes...yes, I do indeed regret asking the question. 

[LoKe]

Why yes...yes, I do indeed regret asking the question. 

I think now you understand my frustration a little more.

[LoKe]

Did/does the course have Joining Instructions?  Is there a Course Senior binder?  School Routine Orders?

Yes, yes, no.

Let's cut to the chase - this thread began two weeks ago.   Your request has gone up the chain and was denied.  Are you clean shaven or do you still have beard?  How long is your course?  How long do want to stay on the instructor's problem child radar?  It is hot and humid, why not opt for a clean shaven low profile until the course is done.

Clean shaven now.  I had the beard for nearly two months of the course, then was told to submit a memo, and while waiting I was told to shave until a conclusion was reached.  Course is four months.  I've dropped the issue in order to prevent any more drama.

At this point are you still sporting a beard, still want to challenge the system and want to jeopardize your QL3 qualification and perhaps your future in the military - take the risk, ask to speak to the RSM then tell him to charge you and let the CO or Delegated Officer decide. 

I'm clean shaven now.  I know I won't win this battle so there's no sense in wasting anyone's time and making me "that guy" at this point. 

I would sooner be a grayman than a problem child.

I never made a very good grayman, but I'm usually reasonable when choosing my battles.  I pushed this issue a bit and they pushed back hard.  I'll continue to discuss the situation in this thread if there are other questions, but the issue, in my mind, is dropped.

[LoKe]

Also, I feel compelled to explain my perspective on the situation (merely the beard itself).  Two years ago I was ordered by a staff member (while on PAT pl) to go to the MIR due to excessive skin irritation caused by shaving.  There I was given a chit in order to cease shaving.  When I was later attached posted to 21EW Regt, I was authorized to cease shaving on the basis that I was in the Navy.  This was the best route, to me, as it would simplify my situation in the sense that I would no longer have to go to the MIR to have my chit renewed (I was on a temporary chit twice).  Now that the memo has been denied at the school, I can't go back to the MIR and get a new chit for the same reason, as it would blatantly appear as if I were subverting their orders and authority.

That's mainly the reason I even pushed the issue in the first place.

EDIT: I believe I answered this question before, but it was asked again.  My ID does not show me wearing a beard.  This is a shortcoming on my part, as I didn't properly read the regs and I misinterpreted the requirement.  But as mentioned before, even if I did have it on my ID, it would not represent authority to wear it.

[Kirsten Luomala]

Also, I feel compelled to explain my perspective on the situation (merely the beard itself).  Two years ago I was ordered by a staff member (while on PAT pl) to go to the MIR due to excessive skin irritation caused by shaving.  There I was given a chit in order to cease shaving.  When I was later attached posted to 21EW Regt, I was authorized to cease shaving on the basis that I was in the Navy.  This was the best route, to me, as it would simplify my situation in the sense that I would no longer have to go to the MIR to have my chit renewed (I was on a temporary chit twice).  Now that the memo has been denied at the school, I can't go back to the MIR and get a new chit for the same reason, as it would blatantly appear as if I were subverting their orders and authority.

That's mainly the reason I even pushed the issue in the first place.

EDIT: I believe I answered this question before, but it was asked again.  My ID does not show me wearing a beard.  This is a shortcoming on my part, as I didn't properly read the regs and I misinterpreted the requirement.  But as mentioned before, even if I did have it on my ID, it would not represent authority to wear it.

If that is the case and you do have a true issue with shaving you can get a permanent category to reflect the shaving issue regardless of what element you are.  I have placed a few pers in my time on restrictions for no shaving that is reflected on their medical docs that don't require renewing chits every 30 days.  I would suggest that when your done your course, either do the memo due to navy uniform in which if not reflected in your pers file or you having a copy this issue could arise again.  Or see the MIR get a dermatologist referral and get a permanent category reflecting the issue.

[PuckChaser]

Was the medical issue listed on your memo? If it was, you're not subverting anyone by going to the MIR again, you informed them of the issue.

[Occam]

About all I can add is that not long ago, I was asked if I wanted to volunteer for a tasking to teach at CFSCE.  I thought about it briefly, but said no.  In retrospect, am I ever glad I turned it down. 

I got asked again this morning if I was interested in another instructor tasking at CFSCE, this time from November to March.  I'm pretty sure the A/BSM heard my snort clear across the building, and one floor down.   

Was the medical issue listed on your memo? If it was, you're not subverting anyone by going to the MIR again, you informed them of the issue.

What he said.  End the silliness once and for all and be done with them.

[Beadwindow 7]

I got asked again this morning if I was interested in another instructor tasking at CFSCE, this time from November to March.  I'm pretty sure the A/BSM heard my snort clear across the building, and one floor down.

Didn't want to try to change it from  inside?

There's a reason some of us call it the CF School of C**k Enforcement