Topic: Challenger/"VIP" Jet/CF Chopper Use (CDS, others) [merged]

[marshall sl]

And where is this coming from? Were you around during the "days of darkness"?

Some, not all, of those in the media have an axe to grind...an agenda if you will, and seize on every opportunity, no matter how legitimate or illegitmate the story is, to put the boots to the CF.
Then it does not matter what the CF says...its lost in the scramble to crucify someone.

He was not alive back then Jim.

[john10]

The point is. In the grand scheme of things the items incurred were due to duties. He has functions to attend- and air crews need hours.

The media story is only news if you infer that it was because he is a jet setting playboy. Which he isn't. So it isnt NEWS. Which is what they are supposed to report.

You might be fine with having dirtbags through crap on what you do for a living but some of us dont like being covered in crap. The rest of us admit when we're wrong but stand up when we're right. I dont have delicate sensibilities- I have a sense of pride I've earned. Reporters, and you apparently, don't.

Where is the news story about how much toilet paper is used at CBC headquarters? There isnt one? Thats because it cant be used to stir the pot.

Actually, yes, I do have pride, which is why I expect my colleagues to behave like professionals, and not hypersensitive guys who think that simply reporting public expenses is a vile attack on the Canadian military.

[Container]

I can't believe you are defending the access to information fishing trips used by lazy reporters.

Shot gun access to information requests at various department. Find something that looks weird. Write story where reader without the facts infers their own story.

They shouldn't be in the business of creating news.

[CDN Aviator]

simply reporting public expenses

Whats it like living with your head buried in the sand ?

Go give your professionalism lessons elsewhere, the rest of us grownups have it covered.

[john10]

Baseless whining....self victimization.....hmmmmmm
I'm too much of a gentleman to tell you what I really think of your answer.

Besides....we do have Freedom of Speech, do we not?

Insofar as the whining and self-victimization is not based on anything actually written in the article, but rather on the "agenda" and "axe to grind" that allegedly underlie it, then yeah, it's baseless.

If there's something wrong with the article, step up to the plate and say what it is.

[Jim Seggie]

Maybe you better rein it in there Johnny Boy. There are some of us that are in their 5th decade of uniformed service that read these things and take offense to your Holier than Thou postings.
You haven't been in long enough to say who or who isn't behaving like a professional. I'm not a mod, but I was....you'd be told to sum up.

Actually, yes, I do have pride, which is why I expect my colleagues to behave like professionals, and not hypersensitive guys who think that simply reporting public expenses is a vile attack on the Canadian military.

[john10]

I can't believe you are defending the access to information fishing trips used by lazy reporters.

Shot gun access to information requests at various department. Find something that looks weird. Write story where reader without the facts infers their own story.

They shouldn't be in the business of creating news.

Container, with all due respect, all the relevant facts are there. The trips were all for official functions, except for one, which was made necessary by the fact he attended a soldier's repatriation ceremony.

Really guys, grow some thicker skin.

[CDN Aviator]

If there's something wrong with the article, step up to the plate and say what it is.

OK.......i'll start......

Six months later, he used the plane to attend the Calgary Stampede with his wife. CTV cited records showing that the jet dropped them in Calgary, flew back to Ottawa empty, then returned to Alberta three days later to pick them up. The total cost was $200,000.

Where is the rest of this statement ? Where is the part that indicates that his presence was a required military duty ? Joe-six-pack civvie sees this and says " personal travel on public money" because the reporter omitted a crucial fact in his statement.

[Container]

Insofar as the whining and self-victimization is not based on anything actually written in the article, but rather on the "agenda" and "axe to grind" that allegedly underlie it, then yeah, it's baseless.

If there's something wrong with the article, step up to the plate and say what it is.

If you cant see that reporting on reasonable expenses is not required I have an "everything is okay alarm" Id like to sell you. It goes off continually as long as everything is going well.

Do you see how that alarm is stupid? The "article" is of the same usefullness.

[CDN Aviator]

Really guys, grow some thicker skin.

I have thick skin but i do enjoy things like accuracy in reporting, objectivity..........

[milnews.ca]

I don't think I've ever seen a group of whinier people than Canadian soldiers, when it comes to the media.

Have you been misquoted by media? 

Have you seen/heard your words in a story shown in a very different light than you meant? 

Have you read a story where you were involved, and knew more of the big picture, and shake your head because the single tile chosen to shine light on doesn't come close to reflecting the entire mosaic?

If this has happened to you or someone you know, you'll know why some military folks (or folks who've found themselves in the situations I've mentioned above) aren't always happy with some media coverage.

Do most reporters try to get it right, given (in many cases) limited background and short timelines?  I'll say yes.  Could we all do better, in sharing the military's message/story and writing/broadcasting about the military?  Yes again.

If there's something wrong with the article, step up to the plate and say what it is.

I believe we have, in several cases.

That said, I think this one'll be locked for a little bit to cool things off.

Milnet.ca Staff

[john10]

Maybe you better rein it in there Johnny Boy. There are some of us that are in their 5th decade of uniformed service that read these things and take offense to your Holier than Thou postings.
You haven't been in long enough to say who or who isn't behaving like a professional. I'm not a mod, but I was....you'd be told to sum up.

I'm not denying that collectively, the media might have been unkind to the military, especially in the period immediately following Somalia, but if you're going to criticize their work in 2011, you should bring something substantive to the table (as in, what precisely is wrong with the article) rather than automatically reverting to "they have an agenda".

[milnews.ca]

I'm not denying that collectively, the media might have been unkind to the military, especially in the period immediately following Somalia, but if you're going to criticize their work in 2011, you should bring something substantive to the table (as in, what precisely is wrong with the article) ....

Again, I believe we have, in several cases.

Still locked for cool down....

Milnet.ca Staff

[milnews.ca]

A bit of a "read only" update with extra info to feed the thread - still on cool off lockdown for a bit longer.....

Prime Minister Stephen Harper says government staff are expected to reimburse Ottawa for the costs of any personal travel they undertake using Crown-owned aircraft, after a CTV report revealed that a senior military leader has incurred hefty travel costs in recent years.

Harper made his views on VIP travel known on Friday when reporters questioned him about the more than $1 million in travel costs that Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Walt Natynczyk has incurred while flying on government aircraft since 2008.

CTV obtained government documents showing that Natynczyk flew on Crown-owned aircraft to attend NHL and CFL games, as well as fundraising dinners and galas in major Canadian cities.

Documents also show that Natynczyk used a military flight to join family members in St. Maarten in January, 2010. The return flight cost almost $93,000.

Natynczyk took the military flight because he missed a vacation charter after attending a repatriation ceremony, CTV Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife reported.

Harper said Friday his government has "dramatically cut the use of government aircraft," but when it is occasionally used for personal travel, he and his fellow government members are expected to pay their fair share.

"When they are used for personal or private travel, we expect that travel at commercial rates to be reimbursed to taxpayers," said Harper, speaking to reporters in Saskatoon.

"That's what I do and I think that's protocol that should be expected across government." ....

CTV.ca, 16 Sept 11

Stephen Harper says Canada’s top soldier will be required to reimburse taxpayers if trips he’s taken on government aircraft were for personal or private travel ....

Globe & Mail, 16 Sept 11

While Canada's top general is being criticized over his use of government jets, Prime Minister Stephen Harper says any officials who use the jets for personal reasons should write a cheque to Ottawa ....

CBC.ca, 16 Sept 11

You get the idea - meanwhile....

Prime Minister Stephen Harper says officials will look into the use of government jets after Canada's top military man was outed for high flying ....

QMI/Sun Media, 16 Sept 11

[Crantor]

It's late, I'm tired and I have my tin foil hat on.

I realise that another thread was locked for a cool down period regarding the alleged misuse of a CF challenger jet.  This isn't about the veracity of this but...

The CF and DND are about to undergo major cuts to a variety things.  We have a CDS that was a very important part of of why and where the CF is today. This man has to make some difficult decisions, decisions he may not agree with and may or may not try to fight.  Suddenly this non-story story breaks about the use of a CF jet.  The PM comes out, not exactly defending the guy or standing by him.  The current CDS is very popular with the men and women who serve.

I get the feeling that by this time next year we may have a different man at the helm overseeing the changes...

Maybe I'm seeing things where there isn't anything.  Just a feeling.

Ok, taking the hat off and putting back in the closet.

[AJFitzpatrick]

I thought pretty much about the same thing

as in "this would be a convenient way to get rid of a CDS"

[Crantor]

Or fall on his own sword and step down.  Knowing the character of this gentleman I could see that.

[AJFitzpatrick]

Or fall on his own sword and step down.  Knowing the character of this gentleman I could see that.

which would serve the purpose even better ...
Perhaps I've watched "The House of Cards" trilogy too often.

[Crantor]

LOL.  I just finished watching the only season of Kings.  Maybe that's why I brought it up...

[dapaterson]

 

This CDS was installed on 02 July 2008; his tenure right now stands at 3 years, 2 months and 14 days.  The CDS serves "at pleasure", but generally for a 3 year term. Gen Hillier served under 3 1/2 years; his predecessor, Gen Henault, served just over 3 1/2 years.

Thus, by this time next year it's very likely we'll have a new CDS - he'll have served out his term.

[Crantor]

This CDS was installed on 02 July 2008; his tenure right now stands at 3 years, 2 months and 14 days.  The CDS serves "at pleasure", but generally for a 3 year term. Gen Hillier served under 3 1/2 years; his predecessor, Gen Henault, served just over 3 1/2 years.

Thus, by this time next year it's very likely we'll have a new CDS - he'll have served out his term.

Fair enough. I did say I had my tin foil hat on .  Would be a shame to leave under a cloud though regardless of tenure length.

[Jim Seggie]

Walt is one of the best people I've ever met. Not just a good officer....but a damn fine person.

If he goes I, for one, will miss him. I hope he does not go under this cloud.....and yes I wear a tin foil hat as well.


Wondering who would have tipped the media to this? or am I just another conspiracy theory wannabe?

[cupper]

Even paranoids are right some of the time.

It does seem a little suspicious that someone has an axe to grind. I find that it's a little too convenient following on the heels of the story about former Gov. General Jean using the jet to fly on vacations.

[milnews.ca]

Wondering who would have tipped the media to this? or am I just another conspiracy theory wannabe?

No need for conspiracy theory here.  Journalists writing about Access to Information Act request results is pretty routine - and not just recently:

• Lookit how much Michaelle Jean is using government planes
• Lookit how much Adrienne Clarkson is using government planes
• "A federal program to get old clunkers off the road had a bumpy start."
• "Harper ordered cabinet-security clearances every two years in the wake of the Maxime Bernier affair in 2008, in which the foreign affairs minister forgot a secret briefing binder at the home of his girlfriend, who had links to Quebec biker gangs.  The March 24 document from the Privy Council Office, marked "Secret," was obtained by The Canadian Press under the Access to Information Act."
• "CSIS would use torture-tainted info, internal notes say"
• "Some airport screeners have sticky fingers, documents show"
• "Troops saw Kashechewan operation as PR exercise"

[CDN Aviator]

Even paranoids are right some of the time.

It's not paranoia when they are really out to get you.