Topic: Challenger/"VIP" Jet/CF Chopper Use (CDS, others) [merged]

[Jim Seggie]

Him or MacKay.  They seem to be on the war path and will not be satisfied until they have nailed a scalp to the totem pole.  The political hacks that haunt the hill don't seem to know how to be a reporter anymore.  They all want to make the news so it would seem and have lost any and all objectivity.

Plus Craig Oliver is butt ugly - and venomous in his attacks.

[GAP]

Plus Craig Oliver is butt ugly - and venomous in his attacks.

Oliver has and still is a rampant Liberal. Always will be. It grates him that the CPC is in and doing well.....oh, and add Tabor to that list.

[milnews.ca]

New target:  the Associate Minister (don't be shy about downloading the full parliamentary document - even if it is almost 3MB in size)....

Remember all the hot fuss last year about Defence Minister Peter MacKay taking a Canadian Forces search-and-rescue helicopter back from a fishing holiday in Atlantic Canada the Maritimes?

At the height of the fury, the Liberal research bureau tabled an order paper question for all ministerial flights aboard all government aircraft — including helicopters, not just the Challenger jet flight logs to which we’ve grown accustomed to lavishing with taxpayer outrage.

The response from the Department of National Defence, tabled Friday and posted below, reveals that MacKay took other helio flights around the same time. All on government business, of course.

But the first item on the list is also interesting: July 17, 2011, and new associate defence minister Julian Fantino travelled aboard a Griffon helicopter between Ottawa and the Canadian Forces Base in Petawawa, Ontario.

It is unclear from the information provided upon which of the there and back legs Fantino flew.  Three weeks earlier, Fantino was in Khandahar to celebrate Canada Day with the troops, so it’s possible this was the final flight of his trip home.

Depending on traffic, that’s usually a two-hour drive up Highway 17. By helicopter, I’d put it at an hour each way 20 minutes.

The cost of the short ride is pegged at $5,913.60.

Fantino’s office says he was participating in a “demonstration of military capabilities” at the invitation of the Forces ....

Ottawa Citizen, 6 Feb 12

[Good2Golf]

*sigh*

The Associate Minter was travelling on official business from NDHQ to CFB Petawawa, so why not see what 427 Squadron does at the same time as he travels up to the base and back?  Furthermore, neither the Petawawa heliport nor the Pembroke airport have a precision approach (ILS - instrument landing system), so each and every pilot at 427 Squadron must travel at least as far as Ottawa several times a year to conduct their precision approach minimums.

At some point, the press may stop demonizing those who at least ensure that RCAF/CF assets are used to the greatest effect, including collateral training of the crew while conducting other missions (transport included) where possible.  It would be very interesting for the media to look beyond partisan targeting and actually conduct an analysis of DND aircraft over a longer period, say 30 years....actually, let's make it 40 years, to capture a wide representation of governmental officials' travels and determine who the greatest non-CF/military user of DND aircraft was.... 

Folks are still not understanding the all-up flying costs, which include fixed costs such as pilot, maintainer and supporter salaries, maintenance contracts for time-based repair activities, cost of the associated infrastructure, hangars, fuel supply maintenance (tanks, fuel trucks, etc...), navigational aids, etc... required to support flying operations.  So let's look at things differently, since the media seems unable (or unwilling) to put a bit more analysis into the "cost per hour" issue.

The cost factors manual states all-up CH146 Griffon costs at $5,900/hr. [Quoted in the Citizen article]

Let's assume a CH146 Griffon  burns 720 lbs/hr, or 380 L/hr.  At $1.25/L, the Griffon therefore burns $475/hr.  The non-flying related fixed cost portion of the $5,900/hr = 5900 - 475 = $5,425. 

So to NOT fly an hour in the Griffon actually costs $5,425 per hour not flown.

Notice how this doesn't make a lot of sense?  That's because reporters take a number (which is thoroughly and accurately defined by its component costings within the CF Cost Factors Manual that the media ATI'd) but use it inappropriately...out of context.  The reporter(s) fail to inform the readers that the full-up costs were really composed of 8.1% incremental costs that vary as, in this case, the Griffon is flown per hour, and 91.9% of the costs that are fixed, whether the aircraft flies (with Minister MacKay, Associate Minister Fantino, PM Harper, Leader of the Opposition Turmel, etc...) or just sits on the ground not being flown.

It sound a lot more dramatic to imply (for it is not factually or contextually accurate) that Associate Minister Fantino incrementally cost the taxpayers $5900 with his Ottawa-Petawawa flight.

Not that it would get the reporter a Christmas card from the Government's Official Opposition Party, but I'm sure many Canadians would find a news piece on an analysis and/or breakdown of those "confusing hourly costs" of DND aircraft rather interesting and informative. 


Regards
G2G 

[Dimsum]

G2G:  Sounds like something that an *ahem* anonymous person can put on the comment boards of a few national newspapers.   

[Kalatzi]

Quote from: MCG on December 15, 2011, 16:21:23
Actually, the article says the staff did stay in the same hotel.  Their rooms were more than $1,100 cheaper in that same hotel.

That's interesting. I was going from this article that states they stayed at the Hilton instead.

True - But he spent the night in Paris Hilton

[Good2Golf]

G2G:  Sounds like something that an *ahem* anonymous person can put on the comment boards of a few national newspapers.   

Dimsum, the irony is that all the information is out there publically available for those who take the time and make the effort to analyze it. 

While it is not something one might reasonably expect every taxpayer to be able to piece together the puzzle of information out there, it would seem quite reasonable that it is within a talented journalist's ability, one with an investigative spirit, to help the readership develop a better understanding of the issue.  It seems, however, that it is a lot easier to quote the most expensive cost possible without further comment or analysis, thus implying that the taxpayer paid the full-up cost specifically due to the Associate Minister's travel (which they did not).


Regards
G2G

[Good2Golf]

I was discussing the issue of cost per flight hour with some colleagues recently and decided that an example a little closer to everyone's daily life might help folks understand how hourly flying costs can be (mis)interpreted.


Many people finance or lease a car.  Let's say I do as well.  Today, I am thinking about driving into town to get something that I'd like right away, some groceries perhaps...or maybe I want to beat the crowd and drop off my tax return at the local CRA office before everyone else swamps the tax centres with their returns.  Should I go downtown right now, or maybe wait a few days?

Fortunately, I keep very detailed records of my transportation costs...probably more than most people, and I include things that most people wouldn't, but I like to know where every penny I spend goes, so I review my vehicle-related costs for last year.

in 2011, I spent:

• $6,588 in payments ($549/month)
• $$117.38 in fuel (I only drove 867kms last year, more on that later...)
• $1,200 for insurance (darn those speeding tickets)
• $1,135 in out-of-warranty repairs (I drive a lot and exceeded the warranty mileage)
• $74 for the annual license validation sticker
• $235 for car washes (I'm a Virgo and like clean cars)
• $4,320 for the share of my garage's cost of the mortgage (300s.f. garage is 20% of the total of my 1200s.f. house +300s.f. garage, $360/month share of my $1800/month mortgage
• $35 (4.5% of my annual $785 electrical bill to light my garage and run the garage door opener - I did an electrical load analylsis on the house's circuits)

Total vehicle-related costs for 2011: $13,704.38.

In my records, I had also calculated a monthly equivalent of my car costs; it worked out to $1,142.03 / month. 

Remember I said I was a Virgo?  Well, I also had a minor in economics with my degree, so it's time to get a bit more accurate with my car costs.  I know...I'm going to calculate my vehicle costs per km driven...that'll be REALLY accurate.  The problem is, 2011 was the year that I was working hard to get back in shape, and I didn't drive my car much.  I rode my bike to work a lot during nice weather.  Not only that, but I also broke my leg in October when I fell off the ladder putting up some decorations for Halloween, and I couldn't drive my car until just before Christmas.  By the end of December, I had only driven my car 867 kms.  Anyway, I divide my total car-related costs ($13,704.38) by the total kilometres I drove in 2011 (867km) and I get a per unit driven cost of $15.81/km. 

So, for 2011, my car cost me $15.81 per kilometre...wow!  That seems like a lot, but you folks will back me up here...you followed all my calculations, so that is precisely what each kilometre cost me.

Well, I still need a way of helping me decide whether I want to drive downtown today or wait until later.  It's a 11.3 km drive to the tax office, so I'll just figure out how much it will cost me to drive downtown, drop off my tax return (I got a $675 return....I know, not a lot, but hey, that's a few nice dinners and several rounds of golf with Mrs. G2G, right?) then drive home and maybe watch a movie with the Mrs.  So...11.3km x 2 (can't forget the return trip) x $15.81 per km = $357.23!   

You got to be kidding me!  I just want to go downtown and drop off my tax return to get my refund.  That trip is going to cost me more than HALF my refund! 

You folks saw me do the math...all the numbers add up...but that's crazy! 

That's it!  I'm waiting until winter's over, then I'll bike downtown. 


That car of mine is just way too expensive!

 


Regards
G2G

[MJP]

I
That car of mine is just way too expensive!

I see what you did there Mr. CBC G2G.

[dapaterson]

However, it begs the question:  Why did you pay $13K for 867 kms?  You could rent a car for the times you need it for well under a quarter of that and use the rest for other purposes - like contributing $5000 to Milnet.ca as a subscription, for example.

Assuming a tax rate of about 40%, that $13K represents nearly $22k in salary - you had to earn over $25 for each km you drove.

If you're going to pay for such an expensive asset, you should use it.  For example, I hear the MND needs transportation from time to time 

[ballz]

Sometimes I wonder if chalking this stuff up as a witch hunt is giving too much credit to some of these journalists.

To be fair, it's not Mr. CBC that's calculating the numbers and trying to inflate them through that method. Those are the actual numbers that go down on the books by professional accountants. Of course, planes are even more inflated on the books than the car example because the crews salaries are included, as well as *huge* depreciation, amongst other things.

A lot of journalists, like normal people, are just plain stupid. I remember getting irate with the way Greg Weston was talking about these numbers on TV one time ("blah blah blah, this is what the Auditor-General said, are they (DND) questioning the Auditor-General?), but the more I've heard from him ever since, the more I wonder if he (and people in general) just isn't smart enough to comprehend the difference, even if you draw it out for him with a crayon like G2G's example.

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." - George Carlin

[Jim Seggie]

Sometimes I wonder if chalking this stuff up as a witch hunt is giving too much credit to some of these journalists.

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." - George Carlin

I love you man....in the brotherly kind of way.

[Brad Sallows]

In order to keep most journalists in perspective, it is only necessary to know this:

1. Many journalists characterize Sarah Palin as "stupid".
2. Sarah Palin has a college degree in communications/journalism, which is not exactly the kind of program which draws the intellectual heavyweights.  One of the realities of university is that people do not aim above themselves if they wish to graduate, and the easier disciplines tend to draw the less capable students*.  I wouldn't call anyone with a college education "stupid", but if they want to build their own shoe and announce loudly how well it fits, that's their business.

*There are always a few people who go where they truly wish to go even if they could do much harder work, but the "prestige" pecking order of faculties and departments isn't a secret and most people like the title on their paper to look meaningful.

[Strike]

Part of the problem is also of our own making.

If a reporter makes a request through the Media Liaison Office, say, to ask what it costs to fly an aircraft from point A to B, it's up to the person who eventually receives the request to find out the context of this question.  Does this request have to do with a certain point in time/situation or is it just a general request regarding every day operations?

These are the questions we should be asking either the reporter or the person who has been tasked by the MLO or PAO to find this answer.

[MCG]

Part of the problem is also of our own making.

If a reporter makes a request through the Media Liaison Office, say, to ask what it costs to fly an aircraft from point A to B, it's up to the person who eventually receives the request to find out the context of this question.

... but that does not apply if the request is through ATI as opposed to through the MLO.

[Strike]

... but that does not apply if the request is through ATI as opposed to through the MLO.

True 'dat.

I do know that a fair amount of them do go through MLO though.  They likely wait to see what they get and, if they don't get what they were looking for then hit up ATI.  You can usually tell which way they've gone based on the time between the event and the reporting of it.

[E.R. Campbell]

Slightly different, but on the same page, is this report, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/despite-goal-of-restraint-harpers-top-bureaucrats-rack-up-travel-costs/article2335482/

Despite goal of restraint, Harper’s top bureaucrats rack up travel costs

DEAN BEEBY

OTTAWA— The Canadian Press
Published Sunday, Feb. 12, 2012

Stephen Harper’s senior bureaucrats have been racking up some hefty airfares at a time of government restraint and controversy over travel.

Travel expenses recently posted for the final quarter of 2011 show executives at the Privy Council Office, the prime minister’s own department, paid costly fares last year on some of the most competitive routes to Europe and elsewhere.

Return airfare to Great Britain cost taxpayers $6,855 for Rennie Marcoux, assistant secretary to cabinet, to attend a week-long “cyber” conference in London last October.

The clerk of the Privy Council, Wayne Wouters, paid almost as much for a round-trip flight to London – $6,625 – for a public-service summit in November.

William Pentney, deputy secretary to cabinet, spent $3,566 on airfare to attend another international summit in London last June.

Paris, another popular European destination with plenty of airline competition, was also a favoured spot for Privy Council bureaucrats, who paid sky-high prices to get there.

Yvan Roy, legal counsel to Mr. Wouters, billed taxpayers $4,607 for a round-trip flight to Paris last October. The posted expense report does not explain the purpose of the trip or provide related costs, but a spokesman said it was for a conference hosted by the French government.

Another senior public servant in Mr. Harper’s department – Joseph Wild, assistant secretary to cabinet – spent $4,367 on airfare to an OECD conference in Paris.

The Irish capital of Dublin was also the destination for another hefty fare – $5,117, paid by Kristina Namiesniowski, assistant secretary to the cabinet. She was there to learn about “e-government.”

The jetsetters at Privy Council Office racked up other pricey airfares for several multi-stop trips overseas, making it difficult to compare prices directly.

Ward Elcock billed a whopping $15,278 to fly to four cities in Australia and New Zealand last October for two weeks of “meetings.” Elcock was travelling as the prime minister’s special adviser on human smuggling.

Mr. Harper’s national security adviser, Stephen Rigby, was a frequent flyer last year – a five-day visit to Singapore in June set taxpayers back $10,719 in airfare alone.

And Mr. Rigby’s week-long visit to Munich and London cost the treasury $6,733 in airline tickets.

All these travellers were public servants flying commercial, rather than the political staff who work inside the Prime Minister’s Office, which is part of the Privy Council Office.

Mr. Harper and his political staff typically fly on government-owned aircraft, rather than commercial airlines, largely for security and logistical reasons.

The Harper government was embroiled in several travel-related controversies in 2011. CTV News reported in September that the chief of defence staff, Gen. Walter Natynczyk, spent almost $1.5-million since 2008 flying on government-owned Challenger aircraft, once to a Caribbean holiday.

And late last year, it was revealed Defence Minister Peter MacKay called in a military search-and-rescue chopper to take him from a vacation at a Newfoundland fishing camp to a nearby airport, from which he flew to a government announcement in Ontario.

The Natynczyk controversy triggered an internal memo to Mr. Harper, dated Sept. 29, outlining a cat’s cradle of rules for travel spending and use of government aircraft.

The six pages of detailed policy were reviewed “in the context of recent and periodic media attention on issues of government travel,” says the document, obtained by The Canadian Press under the Access to Information Act.

It notes that most senior public-service executives, such as those in the Privy Council Office, can take advantage of higher-cost business-class fares if the trip is 850 kilometres or more one way – which applies to overseas destinations, including Europe. Ottawa to London, for example, is almost 5,400 kilometres.

None of the posted airfares for Privy Council Office executives in 2011 indicate the fare type. Economy return-flights from Ottawa to London booked three months in advance currently cost about $1,200, while business class is about four times as much.

The memo to Mr. Harper cites a temporary cap on business-class travel imposed by the 2009 federal budget, which banned these higher-class tickets for flights of less than two hours for senior executives in the public service.

“While the travel cap is no longer in place, organizations are still expected to restrain spending growth in these areas, consistent with the Budget 2010 restraint measures and the Budget 2011 focus on improving the efficiency and effectiveness of government operations and programs,” says the Sept. 29 document.

“The Government has clearly taken steps to reduce spending associated with travel and appropriately placed the onus on deputy heads to manage this reduction, including a reduction in the use of business class travel.”

The memo is signed by Wayne Wouters, the clerk of the Privy Council who billed taxpayers $6,625 for a flight to London in November.

As the equivalent of a deputy minister, Mr. Wouters is subject to a looser set of travel rules. They allow him to use business class entirely at his discretion, without any requirements of minimum distances or flight times.

For most of the public service, business class is allowed only if the air travel lasts more than nine hours.

First-class travel, the highest grade, is generally forbidden except for cabinet ministers who can book first-class for overseas flights in some circumstances, “such as when ministers are obliged to conduct business shortly after deplaning.”

A spokesman for the Privy Council Office, Raymond Rivet, says all of the flights booked by department executives in 2011 “were purchased using the government approved travel supplier and in compliance with government directives.”

“For some of the travel, economy class was used for the airfare portion within Canada,” he added.

Travel costs for the Privy Council Office, including travel, meals and accommodations, were $2.6-million in 2010-11, down from $3.2-million in the previous year. In the first 10 months of the current fiscal year, travel costs were $1.7-million, Rivet said.

Now, I never was a "top bureaucrat" but I do have some (pretty old) experience with some of them and with big international conferences. The "higher" up the chain you get the less "freedom" you have. Those "top bureaucrats" are held on a pretty tight leash by the Clerk of the Privy Council and by ministers and the PM, himself. Their counsel is demanded immediately day and night and I have, personally, seen a very senior official yanked from a very high level conference in Asia so that he could repeat to a couple of VVIPs what he had already said on paper and on the phone. He was back in Japan, exhausted and, from our point of view, almost hors de combat, a couple of days and about $10,000 later because we needed his signature on an international agreement.

I just checked the Air Canada web site: a "no notice" (fly within the next few days) lowest rate business class seat Ottawa <=> London is $8,000.00+.  (The unrestricted business class fare (no charge for cancellation) fare is $9,900.00+.) In my time in government most people were not allowed to book travel for the seniors too far in advance (at lower rates) because they, the senior staff, too often had to cancel and then Treasury Board bitched because we paid cancellation fees. It was damned if you do and damned if you don't.

It is just plain silly to think that we are going to send senior officials to a conference after a long flight in cattle car economy class; in fact, in my considered opinion, it is demeaning to send senior officials (LCol and above and civilian equivalent) on any flight of more than two hours in economy class. We pay senior officers/officials well because we need to have first class people in the senior ranks; if we want first class people we ought to treat them that way.

[jollyjacktar]

A short flight I'll give it.  But when I flew from QC to Ottawa on returning home from Cyprus the CDS and his wife were on the same flight.  They both sat further back than myself and I was in cattle class hell already.  My hat goes off to both the CDS and his wife for being big enough to fly small enough like his troops.   

[milnews.ca]

Part of the problem is also of our own making.

If a reporter makes a request through the Media Liaison Office, say, to ask what it costs to fly an aircraft from point A to B, it's up to the person who eventually receives the request to find out the context of this question.  Does this request have to do with a certain point in time/situation or is it just a general request regarding every day operations?

These are the questions we should be asking either the reporter or the person who has been tasked by the MLO or PAO to find this answer.

Perhaps one of the IS's in NDHQ could help everyone and come up with a "plain language" fact sheet/one pager explaining fixed (how much it costs to own/maintain the thing, whether it's moving/flying or not) vs. operating (how much it costs to run the thing) to be shared with every response.  Hell, they even have G2G's explanation to start from 

[Brad Sallows]

I don't want the high level leadership and administration arriving for conferences and negotiations tired and whipped, when their fatigue could cost the country billions.  It is foolish to begrudge them a comfortable seat, particularly one with space to sleep comfortably.

[Good2Golf]

A short flight I'll give it.  But when I flew from QC to Ottawa on returning home from Cyprus the CDS and his wife were on the same flight.  They both sat further back than myself and I was in cattle class hell already.  My hat goes off to both the CDS and his wife for being big enough to fly small enough like his troops.   

Shhhhhhhhhh.......if we don't mention this any more, the press won't pounce all over the Natynczyks for such behaviour... 

[Rifleman62]

Flew to Ottawa in a Nav Herc. The Comd and Deputy Comd of Air Comd and their wives were on the same aircraft, but sat at the Nav counsels. It was 1984 I believe on the occasion of Prince Charles and Lady Dianna visit to Canada.

Prince Charles had representatives from all the Canadian Military he was Colonel in Chief of to the GG's  for a Cocktail meet and greet.

[milnews.ca]

Note no reference to "obtained through an Access to Information Act request" in this story....

Military personnel were asked to dig up dirt on an opposition MP in the wake of revelations Defence Minister Peter MacKay was picked up in a search-and-rescue helicopter from a 2010 fishing trip, defence department records show.

It first emerged in a television report on Sept. 21, 2011, that MacKay’s office ordered a Cormorant helicopter to pick him up from a private lodge on the Gander River in Newfoundland at an estimated cost of $16,000. His destination was the Gander airport, where a Challenger jet was waiting to take him to a government announcement in London, Ont.

The morning of Sept. 22, Royal Canadian Air Force staff — including an officer posted in MacKay’s office — were digging through flight logs to find instances where opposition party MPs took rides aboard military aircraft, according to emails obtained by the Toronto Star.

The search fixated on Liberal MP Scott Simms (Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor), whose riding includes the 9 Wing Gander air force base and who was critical of MacKay in the initial CTV report.

By noon that day, the air force officials had found what appeared to be information that might take the edge of Simms’ criticisms.

“Found it. Jan. 17, 2011, he (Simms) flew with the Standby crew for almost the whole day,” wrote Maj. Byron Johnson in an email to Royal Canadian Air Force headquarters in Ottawa. “Fax is on the way.”

That email was sent to a number of individuals in Ottawa, including Maj. James Hawthorne, the military assistant to the Minister of National Defence. Hawthorne then demanded to know who invited Simms on the ride-along, where he flew with the Gander-based search-and-rescue crew, and if he paid any money to reimburse the military for the flight.

Another senior air force official, Maj. Jay Nelles, thanked staff in Newfoundland for retrieving the information so quickly, noting that the urgent request for information gave them “a taste of life in Ottawa!!” ....

Toronto Star, 24 Feb 12

[PMedMoe]

Another senior air force official, Maj. Jay Nelles, thanked staff in Newfoundland for retrieving the information so quickly, noting that the urgent request for information gave them “a taste of life in Ottawa!!”

 

What?  Sorry, you were serious?

[FSTO]

So today in Regina I observed an RCAF Challenger landing at the airport.

sarcasm on "WHOMEVER IS IN THERE BETTER HAVE A DAMN GOOD REASON FOR FLYING IN THAT THING!!" sarcasm off.