Topic: Challenger/"VIP" Jet/CF Chopper Use (CDS, others) [merged]

[Zoomie]

The media always adds a cost factor to these jets.  There is no extra cost to the tax-payer for flying crown assets.  The fuel, salary, oil, etc is already budgeted and paid in advance.  If the CDS didn't fly those hours on the jet, the crew would have just taken it empty and gotten their currency training (ie cross-countries) by flying elsewhere.  A little research would go a long way way. 

[Jim Seggie]

The media always adds a cost factor to these jets.  There is no extra cost to the tax-payer for flying crown assets.  The fuel, salary, oil, etc is already budgeted and paid in advance.  If the CDS didn't fly those hours on the jet, the crew would have just taken it empty and gotten their currency training (ie cross-countries) by flying elsewhere.  A little research would go a long way way.

And most citizens can't understand this. My wife and I discussed this and it was pointless bringing this up. She is on the side of the media....I made my point and shut up/.

[medicineman]

The media always adds a cost factor to these jets.  There is no extra cost to the tax-payer for flying crown assets.  The fuel, salary, oil, etc is already budgeted and paid in advance.  If the CDS didn't fly those hours on the jet, the crew would have just taken it empty and gotten their currency training (ie cross-countries) by flying elsewhere.  A little research would go a long way way.

But if the story was bent towards the truth, it wouldn't be that sensational.  Since it's a government dept that's being slandered, they don't care because it would be a lose/lose situation for that dept to confront the story head on - it would look like someone back pedalling or the jackboot of the government coming down on the poor downtrodden press, so they look bad either way.  My guess is the government is hoping it'll just go away OR that the Canadian people are somewhat smarter than the reporter in question is.

 

MM

[E.R. Campbell]

I think we need to realize that Challenger use/cost is always an issue and a good story. Gen Natynczyk is a well known public figure - better known that many (most?) cabinet ministers. Mix a well known guy, with a reliable 'news' story, add a good solid dose of "gotcha journalism", and then add just a pinch of anti-military bias and you have the Good Grey Globe's story.

[milnews.ca]

I think we need to realize that Challenger use/cost is always an issue and a good story. Gen Natynczyk is a well known public figure - better known that many (most?) cabinet ministers. Mix a well known guy, with a reliable 'news' story, add a good solid dose of "gotcha journalism", and then add just a pinch of anti-military bias and you have the Good Grey Globe's story.

The unified theory of journalism from the outside looking in.

I'll be looking for this bit of context as well:

The media always adds a cost factor to these jets.  There is no extra cost to the tax-payer for flying crown assets.  The fuel, salary, oil, etc is already budgeted and paid in advance.  If the CDS didn't fly those hours on the jet, the crew would have just taken it empty and gotten their currency training (ie cross-countries) by flying elsewhere.  A little research would go a long way way. 

Also, let's not forget - the Good Grey Globe didn't even break the story.  CTV asked for and got the documents, producing the first story.  Any indication that the Globe even looked at the logs in question?  I haven't seen any, and I stand to be corrected.  And no outlet is sharing the logs.

[ouyin2000]

I've read the stories, and seen how quickly they were swept to the back pages of the media websites.

I was in attendance at the Grey Cup with the CDS. He both arrived and left Edmonton in uniform. And he attended multiple functions and meetings while he was here for the weekend.

This goes along the lines of Rank Has Its Privilages. Being the top military member in the country, there are certain perks to the job. One of those being that he gets to attend high profile events, as a representative of the entire CF. Sure it's a good gig, but it's not 100% private/pleasure. I, myself, got the opportunity to attend the Grey Cup game on the taxpayers dollar; but I also had a job to do, just like the CDS.

[hamiltongs]

I'd side with the non-conspiracists here: I have a hunch most media outlets have a journalist who submits semi-annual "Tell us what the Challenger's been doing" access to information requests to manufacture stories exactly like this. What stands out about this one is the bit about the trip to St Maarten's to "catch a cruise"; it wouldn't at all surprise me to learn that there was a service obligation associated with that trip as well (DND's Proactive Disclosure site shows the CDS was in Jamaica, Guatemala and Honduras in the weeks surrounding the date in question), but where did the media outlet get the bit of information about the cruise? Surely the flight logs didn't reveal that, so what did?

[milnews.ca]

What stands out about this one is the bit about the trip to St Maarten's to "catch a cruise"; it wouldn't at all surprise me to learn that there was a service obligation associated with that trip as well (DND's Proactive Disclosure site shows the CDS was in Jamaica, Guatemala and Honduras in the weeks surrounding the date in question), but where did the media outlet get the bit of information about the cruise? Surely the flight logs didn't reveal that, so what did?

My guess:  there's a spokesperson quoted in the original CTV story, so that was probably one of the questions - "what was happening in St. Maarten that the CDS had to be flown there?"  Interesting how the first CTV story included that, but NOT the fact that the CDS was called away to a repatriation (that was added in a later version).

[cupper]

According to the CBC News

In the case of the flight to St. Maarten, Cyr said, Natynczyk had to catch up with his family on their holiday because he stayed in Canada to attend a 2010 repatriation ceremony for four soldiers and a journalist killed in Afghanistan. He flew on the Challenger to meet his family to get on a cruise.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2011/09/16/pol-natynczyk-flight-costs.html

[Good2Golf]

The story would have raised a lot less interest if it was reported as: 

Gen Natynzcyk was recalled from leave and a planned vacation that he had paid for personally, in order to attend dead soldiers' and a journalist's repatriation.  The Government did not reimburse Gen Natynzcyk for the cost of his personal airline ticket he forfeited to attend the official function.  The Canadian Forces did, however, fly the General to his destination and the aircrew from 412 Squadron in Ottawa used flight hours already budgeted and allocated to the squadron to maintain required aircrew currency levels.


...but that doesn't have paper-selling panache...

[recceguy]

The story would have raised a lot less interest if it was reported as: 

Gen Natynzcyk was recalled from leave and a planned vacation that he had paid for personally, in order to attend dead soldiers' and a journalist's repatriation.  The Government did not reimburse Gen Natynzcyk for the cost of his personal airline ticket he forfeited to attend the official function.  The Canadian Forces did, however, fly the General to his destination and the aircrew from 412 Squadron in Ottawa used flight hours already budgeted and allocated to the squadron to maintain required aircrew currency levels.


...but that doesn't have paper-selling panache...

Shouldn't some high ranking PAO be doing exactly that? Or do we take the, seemingly, high road and let the press hacks win the accolades of people that are too lazy to understand anything beyond what some third rate journalist writes?

[Good2Golf]

Shouldn't some high ranking PAO be doing exactly that? Or do we take the, seemingly, high road and let the press hacks win the accolades of people that are too lazy to understand anything beyond what some third rate journalist writes?

...one would think...

[milnews.ca]

The story would have raised a lot less interest if it was reported as: 

Gen Natynzcyk was recalled from leave and a planned vacation that he had paid for personally, in order to attend dead soldiers' and a journalist's repatriation.  The Government did not reimburse Gen Natynzcyk for the cost of his personal airline ticket he forfeited to attend the official function.  The Canadian Forces did, however, fly the General to his destination and the aircrew from 412 Squadron in Ottawa used flight hours already budgeted and allocated to the squadron to maintain required aircrew currency levels.

...but that doesn't have paper-selling panache...

Also, imagine the alternative headline:  "CDS No Show at Journalist's Repatriation:  Cost Savings Cited".  Not the mention the editorials....

Shouldn't some high ranking PAO be doing exactly that? Or do we take the, seemingly, high road and let the press hacks win the accolades of people that are too lazy to understand anything beyond what some third rate journalist writes?

Media outlets can be VERY reluctant to make corrections or clarifications, even in cases where facts are misreported.  While a letter to the editor may be doable in short order, if it was from the CDS himself explaining, it would look too CYA.  And since the PM (who appoints the CDS) says they'll be reviewing the policy, I'm guessing a cabinet minister won't be writing to clarify, either.

[Loachman]

Hey newsflash for ya bud, if you don't like this so-called "baseless whining" and "self-victimization" that you seem to think Canadian soldiers constantly express, don't post on an Army forum.

Regardless of the fact that I agree with you, let's end this right now, because that is what caused this thread to be locked last time.

[dapaterson]

This goes along the lines of Rank Has Its Privilages. Being the top military member in the country, there are certain perks to the job. One of those being that he gets to attend high profile events, as a representative of the entire CF. Sure it's a good gig, but it's not 100% private/pleasure. I, myself, got the opportunity to attend the Grey Cup game on the taxpayers dollar; but I also had a job to do, just like the CDS.

The first time he got to do that it was a privilege.  The second time, a bit less.  By now, an invitation to Vancouver means 3 1/2 hours in a plane (a Challenger or commerical jet, it's all the same), plus the duration of the event, plus another 3 12 hours back, which is all time away from his family or causing him to be away from other events in other places, usually over an evening or weekend so he misses that time off... it's hardly appealing, no matter what some may say.  All for a pay that is, arguably, significantly less than it should be.  For example, the head of Canadian Blood Services is paid more than the CDS, as is the head of Ontario's "MaRS Discovery District".. whatever that is.

[milnews.ca]

FYI, here's a page where CBC.ca is asking "Do you think Natynczyk's use of government VIP jets was appropriate? Why or why not?".  (A little better question than their "assault rifle" survey).

Here's your chance to share your views, even if only by clicking "Yes" or "No" on the survey.  As of this post, here's the tally to the question "Do you think Natynczyk's use of government VIP jets was appropriate? Why or why not?":

Yes.  32.6%  (295 votes) 
 
No.  63.09%  (571 votes) 
 
I'm not sure.  4.31%  (39 votes) 
 
Total Votes: 905

[WingsofFury]

Shouldn't some high ranking PAO be doing exactly that? Or do we take the, seemingly, high road and let the press hacks win the accolades of people that are too lazy to understand anything beyond what some third rate journalist writes?

Just more of an fyi....

Whatever statement Public Affairs puts out will never effect the story that a reporter is going to write.  Once the Editors get their hands on information, the story is defined before any member of the Forces is ever asked for content and even when they are asked for content, you'll often see it at the very end of the story where people never end up reading it.

In my opinion, the General shouldn't be in any kind of trouble.  I wonder what type of information would be unearethed for the duration of the Liberal party's stay in power, where they never reimbursed us when they used the Challenger for non government business.

And there you have it....I just showed my immediate bias before asking anyone for a comment. 

[Old Sweat]

There is a well known saying to the effect that news stories are used to fill the space between the ads in newspapers, just as tv reports keep the commercials from taking over the air waves. The aim is to come up with a product story that grips the attention of the public, while being as close to the facts as possible. In this case, the various stories are accurate as far as they go. Even the DND factual explanation is included, albeit towards the end and couched in a "DND claims general has stopped beating his wife" manner*. As for retractions or corrections, some of us may remember when wikileaks included an American sitrep that claimed four Canadian troops were killed by friendly fire on 3 September 2006. Immediately many in the media, including one of the most breathless reporters of the "misuse of Challengers" by the CDS story, reported in their best gotcha mode that DND had delberately covered this up. No effort was made to verify the accuracy of one report against a mountain of evidence to the contrary, including the personal experience of at least one Army.ca member. (The FOO Party's log includes the statement "One bomb did not detonate and bounced very close to friendlies.") Instead the outrageous implication was that there had been a huge cover up with the willing participation of all sorts of people, may of whom had lost friends that day. Again, the cover up angle was soon refuted, but to the best of my knowledge, no retraction or clarification was offered.

* I am being sarcastic here.

[Brad Sallows]

My rule of thumb is that - and this is a lower bound - 1/3 of any given media story is misrepresentation if not outright wrong, rising to 1/2 for any story involving military issues (mostly due to the Hollywood effect - the adoptation of someone else's misconception of military matters as rendered on screen or in print fiction).  That assessment is based on the occasions on which I have known something about the real details of the particular story.

Media are approximately reliable at reporting "what" and "when" and "where", but not "how" and especially not "why".  I believe they lack the time to delve enough into the latter two, and suffer a tendency to "situate the estimate".

[Baden Guy]

There are media and there are media.
And yes they all have to make money but my go to list, in no particular order, New York Times, Globe and Mail, CBC, BBC and for some Middle East stories AL JAZEEERA.

[BadEnoughDude]

Regardless of the fact that I agree with you, let's end this right now, because that is what caused this thread to be locked last time.

I apologize for running the risk inciting another flame war, but the comments that I was replying to really struck a nerve. Still, it's no excuse for my little tirade which was thankfully removed to prevent such a flame war from possibly re-erupting.

I swear, this thread is as potentially explosive as a bottle of nitroglycerin being juggled by a blindfolded man . 

[Rifleman62]

DAP:

The first time he got to do that it was a privilege.  The second time, a bit less.  By now, an invitation to Vancouver means 3 1/2 hours in a plane (a Challenger or commerical jet, it's all the same), plus the duration of the event, plus another 3 12 hours back, which is all time away from his family or causing him to be away from other events in other places, usually over an evening or weekend so he misses that time off... it's hardly appealing, no matter what some may say.  All for a pay that is, arguably, significantly less than it should be.  For example, the head of Canadian Blood Services is paid more than the CDS, as is the head of Ontario's "MaRS Discovery District".. whatever that is.

And he does not sit in his seat looking out the window during the trip. Can you imagine if the CDS and his Aide pulled out a bunch of "Secret" or above documents on CAL?

[E.R. Campbell]

After a bit of back handed character assassination by Kevin Newman and Craig Oliver, the CDS is given some time on CTV's Question Period to answer these baseless charges - starts at at 1:35 but the intro matters because that's where Newman and Oliver sew some doubt.

 

[milnews.ca]

After a bit of back handed character assassination by Kevin Newman and Craig Oliver, the CDS is given some time on CTV's Question Period to answer these baseless charges - starts at at 1:35 but the intro matters because that's where Newman and Oliver sew some doubt.

And when they say "exclusive" and pump it as their story, it means less likelihood of backtracking even a notch on their original position.

Edited to add:  Just watched the interview - well handled by the CDS.

Interesting that the Minister reportedly said "OK" and the PM has been quoted saying "we've got to be frugal and we'll have to look into it."

[E.R. Campbell]

I like how it's attributed to "Staff"; basically, no journalist with a recognizable name wanted to be associated with this POS story. The G&M has already bumped it down from top of the national section to a less prominent spot, and I don't believe it ran in the print edition.

An unappreciated part of how the media works is just how much leeway overnight "editors" (i.e. web page maintainers) have, and just how much their work gets scrutinized and revised once the grownups show up in the morning. I think we can look forward to this one disappearing quite quickly, to be honest.

Unfortunately it's still here, still (as of 1245 Hrs) at the top of the Globe and Mail's main webpage; it has "legs," as they say - if only because there is nothing else to discuss. And the PM has been roped into the issue ... maybe it's harmless, maybe not. I'm inclined to believe in both pack journalism and "gotcha journalism", too. And I believe that once the pack gets the scent of blood they will chase and chase until the prey is exhausted.