Topic: Reg Force at Reserve Unit Working Hours

[wesleyd]

Currently posted to a reserve unit. Love the job and the unit. However one concern is working hours. They have Monday and Wednesday training/admin nights from 1900-2200 and one Saturday a week. The CO at the unit informed me that I am not a public servant and am expected to be at all unit events without any compensation. So Mondays and Wednesdays are from 0750 until 2215. While Class A, which most command are, works 3 days per week. I understand the Military obligation and we don't have a 9-5 job ( I have 23+ years in and 20 years sea time). But I am not used to having to work 55+ hours a week (every week) and not get any time off for it. While at sea these hours are normal but we get sea pay and usually some time off for extra work, ports, PDL, etc. I have tried my COC and there is nothing they can do. To me this is a quality of life issue. The unit tells me it is operational requirement but it is a building.
Looking for some advice on how to deal with this matter. Never had to deal with this in the past.
Thanks

[CDN Aviator]

and one Saturday a week.

My liver wouldn't be doing too good if there was more than one Saturday a week 

[hamiltongs]

Currently posted to a reserve unit. Love the job and the unit. However one concern is working hours. They have Monday and Wednesday training/admin nights from 1900-2200 and one Saturday a week. The CO at the unit informed me that I am not a public servant and am expected to be at all unit events without any compensation. So Mondays and Wednesdays are from 0750 until 2215. While Class A, which most command are, works 3 days per week. I understand the Military obligation and we don't have a 9-5 job ( I have 23+ years in and 20 years sea time). But I am not used to having to work 55+ hours a week (every week) and not get any time off for it. While at sea these hours are normal but we get sea pay and usually some time off for extra work, ports, PDL, etc. I have tried my COC and there is nothing they can do. To me this is a quality of life issue. The unit tells me it is operational requirement but it is a building.
Looking for some advice on how to deal with this matter. Never had to deal with this in the past.
Thanks

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent units. But if your command team is working 3 days a week class "A" on top of their 40 hour civilian jobs, you can imagine that they're reluctant to entertain griping about having to put in extra work from the career sailors sent to support the unit.

While at sea these hours are normal ...

Bingo. Don't tell me the extra $250 a month you get as sea pay makes the difference for the extra working hours; you put those hours in because you believe in your job and because everyone understands it to be normal. The real problem here is that you arrived at your new unit believing that you were being sent on a "lifestyle" posting that would let you spend lots of time with your family, etc, etc, so expectations were out of whack with the realities of the job. Not your fault - I wish the "facts of life" for Reg F staff sent to support NRDs were better communicated to the people being posted in so they could decide if they're willing to make the commitment in advance of the posting.

My experience of having been full-time staff at an NRD was that I've never worked more constantly in any other job (including on operational deployment abroad). If you find your 50 hours per week unproductive, it's because something really important isn't getting done; find out what that is, figure out how to fix it, rinse, repeat and eventually you'll find the job fulfilling. If it's any consolation, NRD life slows down (to about 40 hours/week) in the summers.

To answer your question of how to "deal" with this, though - figure out how to make the system work the way you envision. Are you going to the gym on company time? There's a NAVRESORD that permits it. Contact day staff at other NRDs and ask what their pers policies are; look at the work you have to do and figure out how you can accomplish it in 40 hours a week, then structure a formal proposal in a briefing note to command with a recommendation for how to change the system. If its focus is in the right place (i.e. on the needs of the unit and how they can be adequately met with less full-time coverage) and sufficiently documented with examples of your proposal working elsewhere, they may accept it. But if they don't bite, don't fight the white and just ask for a posting-out from your CM for next year. And when you go back to the fleet, remember the poor bastards (reserve and Reg F) who are running their bags off to make the Naval Reserve work.

[Occam]

I think what the OP meant was that the Command Team works Mon/Wed/Sat but are not being sympathetic to the dayworking RSS who works the straight days as well as the training hours.  If they have civvie jobs during the day (which they're getting paid for) as well as their reserve Class A hours (which they're getting paid for), then they're not exactly being fair expecting the RSS to put in all these hours just because they're salaried.

I too would recommend that you take a casual survey of your brethren in the RSS positions at the NRDs across the country.  Something doesn't sound right.

[hamiltongs]

I think what the OP meant was that the Command Team works Mon/Wed/Sat but are not being sympathetic to the dayworking RSS who works the straight days as well as the training hours.  If they have civvie jobs during the day (which they're getting paid for) as well as their reserve Class A hours (which they're getting paid for), then they're not exactly being fair expecting the RSS to put in all these hours just because they're salaried.

Understood, but the flip side of that is that if the OP is willing to work those hours on ship, why not at an NRD? Because it's "just an NRD" isn't going to fly, I can tell you up front.

Definitely not saying that's how'd I'd approach the situation in their shoes, but he needs to understand where they're coming from - they're busy people with civilian lives and careers, they've been putting overtime in for the organization for 20 years or more, and they're not doing it for $200 a week. It's because they believe in it, and they may (understandably) not have a lot of patience for the professionals posted in who find that level of commitment onerous.

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I think what the OP meant was that the Command Team works Mon/Wed/Sat but are not being sympathetic to the dayworking RSS who works the straight days as well as the training hours.  If they have civvie jobs during the day (which they're getting paid for) as well as their reserve Class A hours (which they're getting paid for), then they're not exactly being fair expecting the RSS to put in all these hours just because they're salaried.

I too would recommend that you take a casual survey of your brethren in the RSS positions at the NRDs across the country.  Something doesn't sound right.

Thank God,...I thought this was just goin to be another "suck it up Buttercup" pile on.
Occam, thank you.

Making someone work 55 hours a week, every week, seems more a matter of bad planning then an "operational requirement".

[recceguy]

I think what the OP meant was that the Command Team works Mon/Wed/Sat but are not being sympathetic to the dayworking RSS who works the straight days as well as the training hours.  If they have civvie jobs during the day (which they're getting paid for) as well as their reserve Class A hours (which they're getting paid for), then they're not exactly being fair expecting the RSS to put in all these hours just because they're salaried.

I too would recommend that you take a casual survey of your brethren in the RSS positions at the NRDs across the country.  Something doesn't sound right.

The OP never mentioned pay, which really is moot to the discussion. The compensation he was speaking of what time off in lieu.
Types of day jobs (or the dollars) for Cl A are meaningless. It's all about hours.

[a Sig Op]

Obviously it depends by CO, and as such, by unit, but (winter) for the reg force and Class B staff at our unit have them working on Thursday evening, but they take off at 12 on Friday afternoon, and take monday off any time they attend an exercise over the weekend...

Expecting somone to work 55 hours just because you can *make* them work 55 hours a week is certainly bad planning... it's basically the same as expecting them to work an eight hour work day, every day.... in the same class as eliminating PT because "there's work to be done" (There's always work to be done... very little of it can't wait till after PT....).

[Brief side rant here, excuse me] Speaking of command team working a 40 hour work week in addition to their class A reserve commitments, nothing irritates me more then listening to our Class A CO gripe about Class A attendance... he works irregular shifts himself, and I have yet to see him show up for any exercise for more than an hour... given that most of our personnel base are students, they're going to miss some exercises... I work about a 45 hour work week civi side, and I still have far more free time then I did when I was a student....

[Pat in Halifax]

I am assuming you are a PO1/PO2 (I did the same job at an NRD too). Figure something out, talk to the RegF LCdr and TELL him your plan. I had an ugly confrontation myself with my NRD's XO but in the end, all were happy and there was no disrespect. What's the saying?: You can be happy, or you can be right.

[SeaKingTacco]

I've done the 55hr/week RSS gig, too (including one unforgettable stretch of 27 straight days, without a day off).  The biggest problem is one of burnout- most people cannot sustain that kind of a pace for a 2-3 year posting and still remain productive.

The OP is correct that we are not public service employees and we work the hours that are required.  However, most reserve units that I am familiar with do make allowances that grant time off in lieu to the full-time staff ( including both reg and res full-time staff) in an attempt to keep them motivated and effective over he long run.

[hamiltongs]

Making someone work 55 hours a week, every week, seems more a matter of bad planning then an "operational requirement".

Not to beat a dead horse here (I've already said what I needed to, which is just to approach the problem with comprehensive staff work), but the OP isn't really working 55 hours a week. Here's how the schedule looks in reality:

M - F: 0800 to 1600 (40 hours)
T & Th: 1900 to 2200 (6 hours)
(I have a feeling the one Saturday a week was a typo - should be one per month. No unit is budgeted that much, and they'll typically drop a training evening in lieu)

Less one-hour lunches every day (-5)
Less a half-hour at the gym every day (if he's taking advantage of it) (-2.5)

In reality, 55 hours a week pretty quickly turns into less than 40 if you approach it the way any civilian employer (even the public service) would. For sure, he's not going to be able to go home over lunch hours and in the three hours between the end of the normal work day and the beginning of the training night; he may even just stay at his desk in that time to clear up some work - but that's not because his bosses are forcing him to. We in the CF have the bad habit of equating "time away from home" with "time at work". There's not a company in the world that would recognize his schedule as 55 hours for the purposes of overtime.

And again, this isn't a vote of support for the decisions of his unit leadership - just a bit of devil's advocacy.

[Occam]

The OP never mentioned pay, which really is moot to the discussion. The compensation he was speaking of what time off in lieu.
Types of day jobs (or the dollars) for Cl A are meaningless. It's all about hours.

Yup, I understand that.  I wasn't suggesting that there is any kind of financial compensation expected (although if one is forced to spend the entire day at the NRD, then meal claims for supper might be something worth thinking about).  I only mentioned the pay aspect of the reservists to illustrate that they're getting compensated for both their civvie and their class A hours, while the Reg F guy is getting the same compensation regardless of hours worked.  There should be some compensatory time off going on. 

Even shift workers (under the CF Leave Manual) are supposed to have their hours scheduled such that they receive an equivalent number of hours of time off as compared to Mon-Fri workers.

[recceguy]

Yup, I understand that.  I wasn't suggesting that there is any kind of financial compensation expected (although if one is forced to spend the entire day at the NRD, then meal claims for supper might be something worth thinking about).  I only mentioned the pay aspect of the reservists to illustrate that they're getting compensated for both their civvie and their class A hours, while the Reg F guy is getting the same compensation regardless of hours worked.  There should be some compensatory time off going on. 

Even shift workers (under the CF Leave Manual) are supposed to have their hours scheduled such that they receive an equivalent number of hours of time off as compared to Mon-Fri workers.

I won't flog it, but, there's lots of Cl A guys flipping burgers and such that would love to have compensation equal to a Reg F salary. Not every Cl A guy is a corporate CEO or auto worker, for example

[FSTO]

Many units use days in lieu to compensate which I think is fair. Our issue is the lack of class A's which forces more and more work on the FTS. If we loose a Reg force member with no replacement it makes things even harder. Small units are expected to produce the same amount of paperwork as larger units and it is starting to burn us out.

[Bruce Monkhouse]

M - F: 0800 to 1600 (40 hours)
T & Th: 1900 to 2200 (6 hours)
There's not a company in the world that would recognize his schedule as 55 hours for the purposes of overtime.

Also not to beat a dead horse but where I work the nights would be overtime as it was less than 8 hours between scheduled shifts.

And "time away from my family" because of work is my benchmark

[recceguy]

Many units use days in lieu to compensate which I think is fair. Our issue is the lack of class A's which forces more and more work on the FTS. If we loose a Reg force member with no replacement it makes things even harder. Small units are expected to produce the same amount of paperwork as larger units and it is starting to burn us out.

This is not just a problem that affects FTS. Many units\ brigades\areas, demand exceedingly larger amounts of administration from all individuals, including Cl A's. In effect, what ends up happening, is that many senior Cl A people (WO & up) end up after working their civvie job and having supper, sitting down at their computer for another few hours, almost nightly. Most don't get compensated for it. While I picked WO & up as the example, I've seen this becoming more prevalent all the way down to the MCpl level.

[ObedientiaZelum]

For RSS and day staff in the reserves you can really put in a surprising amount of hours.   

I would suggest CTO days (not sure what it stands for) but your chain of command doesn't seem to care very much.

For us if we work a Tuesday and Thursday night we get one day a week off. Even with that day a week off we put in a weekend or two sometimes.  In January I think 3 out of 4 weekends we have something going on.

Some of the bigger units have their regular force members working Monday to Friday 8 to 4 and don't have them come in for admin/training nights or out on weekend ex's.

then again the rss staff are pulling in 15% more than their reserve day staff counter parts

[Journeyman]

CTO days (not sure what it stands for)

Compensatory Time Off   

[hamiltongs]

Compensatory Time Off   

...which actually isn't a concept formally recognized by the CF/DND (it's not in the Leave Manual). The direction the OP should look is towards the well-entrenched concept (in the public service) of a flexible working schedule - i.e. putting in 40 hours a week according to a non-traditional schedule based on the operational requirements of the unit. Day staff could tailor their weekly schedules so that there was coverage 8am to 4pm Monday to Friday, without all of them having to be there all the time.

If only there were an NRD 300km or so up-river from the OP that were doing exactly that...

[mariomike]

"T & Th: 1900 to 2200 (6 hours)
There's not a company in the world that would recognize his schedule as 55 hours for the purposes of overtime."

That would be paid as 12 hours where I used to work.

[hamiltongs]

"T & Th: 1900 to 2200 (6 hours)
There's not a company in the world that would recognize his schedule as 55 hours for the purposes of overtime."

That would be paid as 12 hours where I used to work.

Mike, the reason you and Bruce are paid that way for longer shifts is because the nature of your work is such that even slightly longer days impose exponentially more hardship than regular ones. I've been full time staff at an NRD, and I can say with confidence that it doesn't compare to EMT or Corrections work in that way.

[wesleyd]

I am assuming you are a PO1/PO2 (I did the same job at an NRD too). Figure something out, talk to the RegF LCdr and TELL him your plan. I had an ugly confrontation myself with my NRD's XO but in the end, all were happy and there was no disrespect. What's the saying?: You can be happy, or you can be right.

Hey Pat, right now there are no Reg Force in the command team. I am not saying that I don't want to put the time in but I would like some time to my family and myself. Right now reg force are expected to be there for every unit event even though we may not be directly involved with it. I feel that working in a building that is staffed primarily by part timers should not be more stressful or time consuming than being in charge of a section while steaming EOOW at sea.
 I have spoken with a few other NRD's and they seem to be using CTO, even though it is not a real thing, to compensate for the extra hours. I will be going to NAVRESHQ next month and will ask around to see if there may be any type of policy on this matter. I get the feeling though that it is one of those CO's discretion things.

[wesleyd]

My liver wouldn't be doing too good if there was more than one Saturday a week 

Typo one saturday a month

[wesleyd]

I think what the OP meant was that the Command Team works Mon/Wed/Sat but are not being sympathetic to the dayworking RSS who works the straight days as well as the training hours.  If they have civvie jobs during the day (which they're getting paid for) as well as their reserve Class A hours (which they're getting paid for), then they're not exactly being fair expecting the RSS to put in all these hours just because they're salaried.

I too would recommend that you take a casual survey of your brethren in the RSS positions at the NRDs across the country.  Something doesn't sound right.

I have been talking with a few they appear to be using CTO for the evening and weekends. Which is fair, I think.

[Zoomie]

I have been talking with a few they appear to be using CTO for the evening and weekends. Which is fair, I think.

This is how most PRes units work