Topic: Legion Poppy Copyright issues (bikers, NHL, etc.)

[FlyingDutchman]

That won first place?  The hell?

[Pat in Halifax]

Oh my.
My brother works.... let's just say; mid-level at a RCL here in the Ottawa area-I will ask what his thoughts are (about the poppy issue, not the 'other' one).

[jollyjacktar]

Whoa!  I missed that one.  They really were dancing on their gear with golf shoes.  I bet they would love to have a "do over" on that one.  Idiots.

[Nemo888]

I wish there was an organization that lobbied for Veterans who served after Korea. RCL never stood up for us when the New Veteran's Charter screwed us. They really hung us out to dry. They will not get anything but scorn from me till they have some balls and stand up for Vets.

[FlyingDutchman]

The Legion just dropped off our counter top poppy pin, and I just paid for one and put it on out of habit.

[Brasidas]

I wish there was an organization that lobbied for Veterans who served after Korea. RCL never stood up for us when the New Veteran's Charter screwed us. They really hung us out to dry. They will not get anything but scorn from me till they have some balls and stand up for Vets.

I'm sure its shrinking, but what about the Korean Veterans Association?

[Teeps74]

The subject of this story is a friend of mine... The Legion does not do a very good job of even sticking up for it's own.

http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?archive=true&e=762346

In 2005, she was elected president - just in time to preside over the historic organization's demise.

Three months after Raymond's installation as president, the 79-year-old institution that was her new companion collapsed.

Hobbled by a debt that had swelled beyond $350,000, Branch 9 folded. The charter was surrendered to senior legion officials. The building was closed and all assets sold. More than 400 members, including many who had been No. 9 members for decades, scattered. Some joined another Kingston branch, No. 560. Some quit the legion in disgust.

Two years after Branch 9 closed, debts and questions linger.

Raymond, now a 68-year-old pensioner, lives in an apartment with a pet cockatiel named Joey on $1,300 a month.

She has been told by the Canada Revenue Agency that she's personally responsible for a $40,000 debt that the branch racked up and remains unpaid.

- See the article for more.

I would like to support the Legion, and see them support vets... But alas, I view the Legion as an entity that has lost it's way and reason a very long time ago.

[milnews.ca]

The subject of this story is a friend of mine... The Legion does not do a very good job of even sticking up for it's own.

http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?archive=true&e=762346

Ouch.....

[garb811]

May 2007: Former executive members of Branch 9 receive notices from the Canada Revenue Agency saying they may be liable personally for unpaid taxes. Some people get second notices saying they are liable and must begin paying while the cases are under appeal.

This is the scary part for me.  I wonder if it was a flaw in the Charter of that Branch specifically or if this an issue that Legion executives of all Branches are liable for.  If it is the latter...

[dapaterson]

This is the scary part for me.  I wonder if it was a flaw in the Charter of that Branch specifically or if this an issue that Legion executives of all Branches are liable for.  If it is the latter...

The officers of any organization can be liable for what it does - something to investigate before taking on a role in any organization.  Many carry liability insurance for the executives, so they won't lose everything if things go bad.

[dogger1936]

I've seen these "biker" groups do a lot of great things for soldiers over the years. What really makes me angry is I'm gonna be forced to buy a couple here shortly. It seems a lot less like the symbol of rememberance to my fallen commrades and those who have served before....and a whole lot like a CF/legion forced copyright POS on my uniform.

Thanks for this; I hadnt heard this on the media.

regards

[dogger1936]

■A-AD-265-000/AG-001, Canadian Forces Dress Instructions, Chapter 3, Section 7, Paragraph 42

This forces me to support a group I do not want to support. Does anyone else see a problem with this instruction?

[AmmoTech90]

Use a non-legion poppy.

[dogger1936]

Thats the problem. It clearly states:

42. The Royal Canadian Legion Poppy.

The red poppy is an emblem of the RCL and is used to commemorate Canadians who died in battle. CF members shall wear the poppy on all uniforms from the last Friday of October until Remembrance Day (November 11th) and are encouraged to wear it when attending any event whose main purpose is to commemorate Canadians who died in battle.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/oth-aut/rd-js/rd-js-eng.asp

Unfortunately the RCL poppy is the only authorised. We are forced to wear their copyrighted version.

[AmmoTech90]

No it doesn't.

It states "the red poppy".  Not "the red poppy distributed through the  RCL's Poppy Fund", nor does it say "the red poppy copyrighted by the RCL shall be worn."

Grow some poppies and wear a new one every day, get someone from the UK to send you one of theirs, make one for arts and crafts, pick one up off the street if you are that adament about not supporting the legion.

[dogger1936]

Suggest you re read then. The direction is for the wearing of the Royal Canadian Legion poppy. Hence the title of sec 42. You cant wear a grown poppy, or a Brit poppy (I have a few).

[Lex Parsimoniae]

■A-AD-265-000/AG-001, Canadian Forces Dress Instructions, Chapter 3, Section 7, Paragraph 42

This forces me to support a group I do not want to support. Does anyone else see a problem with this instruction?

You could always take annual leave from the last Friday of October until Remembrance Day.

[dogger1936]

Thanks for the great suggestion Lex.

Edit to remove B/S not needed on a internet forum.

[Occam]

The document cited at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/oth-aut/rd-js/rd-js-eng.asp is a Remembrance Day aide-memoire.  I don't know about anyone else, but I would be hesitant to say an aide-memoire dictates policy.

The CF Dress Instructions (Change 6), however, is a policy document - and Chapter 3, Section 7, Paragraph 42 of that document states:

42. The Remembrance Day Poppy.  The
Remembrance Day poppy is authorized to be worn
on all uniforms from the last Friday of October until
Remembrance Day (November 11th). See
Figures 3-7-2, 3-7-3 and 3-7-4. For mess dress,
see Figure 6B1-1, Note 3.  Environmental
commanders may establish guidelines for the wear
of poppies on operational dress other than
described in this publication.

"Authorized to be worn", not "shall be worn".  Has anyone seen anything that trumps CFP 265 on this?

[Towards_the_gap]

I'm tempted to see what poo-storm would ensue if I were to wear a RBL poppy, or, one I made myself out of red craft paper, on Monday. Methinks it's not worth the hassle, and would only make an issue out of uniformity vice the relevance/worth of the RCL.

And anyways, the Poppy Fund does go to good causes, at least it's not paying for all those chad medals legion members wear on their right breast.

[E.R. Campbell]

If you insist upon not supporting the RCL, as a matter of principle, then save your poppy from year-to-year.

I do that, although I buy another one or two every year, because I'm absent minded so, at end Oct I put one on each of two blazers and a suit jacket and on the two or three overcoats/jackets I am most likely to wear. I still a) lose one or two every year and b) manage to wear something on which I have not pre-mounted a poppy. 

[ObedientiaZelum]

Ouch.....

Yea that was a pretty stupid move but even then I'd chalk that up as members (from a small town) being stupid and not really thinking of the greater picture.
This is the second year I've had to tell someone not to wear a certain costume for halloween which they thought was funny but falls under "too soon" and would be in very bad taste to anyone outside the military (and probably a good few inside)
I don't see a legion member wearing a dumb halloween costume as any indicator about the legion as a whole anymore than it would a normal CF mess.


On a different note the Legion sure has some cool swag.
61 pages of stuff you can buy.
http://legion.ca/_PDF/Supply/Catalogue_Fall_11_Web_e.pdf

From shirts to stuff to put on tombstones.

side note
I didn't see any box's of Liars Dice.  Anyone know where one would pick one of those up? Fellow at RCR kitshop said they don't have em

[Pat in Halifax]

Maybe I am alone but my wearing of a poppy is not a sign that I fully support RCL policies and directives, just as my wearing of my uniform and subsequent oath to the people of Canada means I "agree" with every government decision. I wear the poppy in memory of those who have given their lives before me and if you must know, I wear two; another on the underside of the lapel, out of sight to all but me. That one is for my personal remembrance and is on my uniform 24/7, 365 days a year. I also carry a picture of my dad taken in 1943 on an inside pocket 24/7, 365 but then, that is discussed in another thread.

[Michael O'Leary]

Maybe I am alone but my wearing of a poppy is not a sign that I fully support RCL policies and directives, just as my wearing of my uniform and subsequent oath to the people of Canada means I "agree" with every government decision. I wear the poppy in memory of those who have given their lives before me and if you must know, I wear two; another on the underside of the lapel, out of sight to all but me. That one is for my personal remembrance and is on my uniform 24/7, 365 days a year. I also carry a picture of my dad taken in 1943 on an inside pocket 24/7, 365 but then, that is discussed in another thread.

But that is just the point. Canadians (for the most part) do not and never have worn it primarily as an RCL symbol. That is not how the symbol has ever been sold in Remembrance Day marketting, it's never been openly identified as an owned trademark of the RCL that they are selling when they pitch "wear this in Remembrance of those who have fallen" .... and that's why it grates every time the RCL launches a legal attack at someone for using some form of the poppy as a symbol of Remembrance. The RCL's own marketting approach over decades has genericized it to a Canadian symbol of Remembrance, and yet they attack others for embracing that perception and wishing to further honour its role as such a symbol.

[ObedientiaZelum]

But that is just the point. Canadians (for the most part) do not and never have worn it primarily as an RCL symbol. That is not how the symbol has ever been sold in Remembrance Day marketting, it's never been openly identified as an owned trademark of the RCL that they are selling when they pitch "wear this in Remembrance of those who have fallen" .... and that's why it grates every time the RCL launches a legal attack at someone for using some form of the poppy as a symbol of Remembrance. The RCL's own marketting approach over decades has genericized it to a Canadian symbol of Remembrance, and yet they attack others for embracing that perception and wishing to further honour its role as such a symbol.

Exactly.

Pat I think it's pretty cool that you wear your own as a symbol or personal remembrance. 

How would you feel though if the Legion's lawyers sent you a letter saying you are not allowed to wear a 2nd poppy on the underside of your lapel because it is a copyrighted object and you're wearing it in a manner that it's not intended.

The RCL takes an object of remembrance and not only turns it into a business but aggressively goes after people who make cookies or CF vets who use the image-in an act of remembrance.