Author Topic: I need your help to attend a military hockey tournament (Read 3177 times)

DB323334 · « **on:** November 03, 2011, 20:53:22 »

Good day,

I need some help in order to get to a hockey tournament in Borden.

Due to a tight budget at my current posting members wishing to attend must do so without TD. I'm willing to use leave and pay for it out of my own pocket but it says in a BSO that "No member shall participate in any CF sports program while on any form of leave". Does this mean I cannot take annual leave to attend this tournament, or can the Base Commander sign off that I'm good to go. There is no mention of this in CFAO 50-3 -- Sports.

Finally if I cannot take annual leave to attend is it possible to go on TD but simply pay all the costs yourself? They are saying I need to be on TD incase something happens to me but CFAO suggests that a member must fill out an Appendix 1, Annex B of CFAO 50-3 application to enter a sports competition and be approved by the CO. Hockey is a recognized CF sport and if I get injured and the CO approves I should be covered for anything that happens to me.

The tourney is 5 days long, I did up a leave pass, I'll be using my last annual, requesting 2 short and trying to use 2 special as CTO. CTO as in Post Ex leave.

At the End of the Day, Can the CO simply approve of me going to the Tournament and sign off on the leave pass or do I need to be on TD and if won't allow me TD because of money can I give money to military.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions.

Zoomie · « **Reply #1 on:** November 03, 2011, 23:45:40 »

I have seen/heard of this exact situation with other members. Some believe you can get some set of no cost TD instruction - others are against that thought. If you go while on leave - you won't be covered by DVA and the CF for a duty related injury if you get hurt. In the end you will need to decide how important playing hockey is when it is stacked up against your career.

Strike · « **Reply #2 on:** November 04, 2011, 00:09:40 »

Talk to the sports coordinator at PSP. I believe you are permitted up to $200 a year from them to attend a military sports competition. That would not cover all your costs, but you would be on a TD claim. The cost is carried by PSP and not the unit.

GnyHwy · « **Reply #3 on:** November 04, 2011, 02:31:19 »

Zoomie is absolutely right in saying that you cannot be on leave while playing military sports.

Strike also offers up a potential solution. Just to add a bit, it may depend on which team you are playing for; base or unit?. If it is a unit team then the base PSP maybe reluctant to flip the bill. Might be worth a try if it is just you, but be careful, as you might not want to unintentionally embarrass your unit or stir up shitshow of e-mails.

You may have already answered your own question though.

Quote from: DB323334 on November 03, 2011, 20:53:22

Due to a tight budget at my current posting members wishing to attend must do so without TD.

I've never seen this before, but if that is what you CoC is saying and your willing to flip the bill, then it should just be a matter of clearing it with your section head to get the time away and your on your way. I am not an admin expert and perhaps you do need a claim, which includes TD to go.

What I'm trying to figure out is how are you in this situation to begin with? If it is a base team, then they pay. If you are a pick up, the the team that picked you up pays. If it is your unit team and there are other guys in this situation, why was this not forecasted and determined long ago that it wasn't achievable? Which is it?

Hopefully, they are not just throwing crappy excuses at you because they don't want you to go. If that is the case, they should just man up and tell you no. It is the CoC's prerogative.

Occam · « **Reply #4 on:** November 04, 2011, 06:36:09 »

CANFORGEN 169/07 was the order stating that members were deemed on duty for the purposes of the CF Sports Program, but there's a message out since then (not a CANFORGEN) which supercedes it. I used to have a copy, but tossed it when I retired. Your local PSP staff should have it, if not, contact the CFSU(O) PSP Sports Coord. I know they have a copy of it on file.

Pusser · « **Reply #5 on:** November 04, 2011, 11:10:12 »

There is no such thing as "No Cost TD." You're either on TD or you're not. If you're on TD, then all the applicable rules come into effect. Units cannot pick and choose, which rules to follow.

There is also no such thing as "Special Leave - CTO." Special Leave is not some blanket catch-all device to give members time off for special circumstances . In fact, it is very clearly defined and only for very specific circumstances (E.g. Christmas/New Year's, Education, Community Affairs, etc). Each type of Special Leave has defined paremeters that must be met. CO's have absolutely no authority to grant Special Leave that does not meet these criterion.

Wookilar · « **Reply #6 on:** November 04, 2011, 15:27:46 »

To add with what Pusser has said:

If your unit is sending a team, as in you are the "CFB Nowhere Hornets" ground hockey team, to a civilian tournament, then they have to send you on TD as you are representing them. To do this, use 50-1 and 2 and the annex needs to be filled out and approved by higher. If this is not done, and you get hurt, you are screwed. The Gagetown guys playing in the pond hockey tourney are covered every year as they are representing the CF in a positive and public manner (they also regularly kick butt so that helps as well).

If you are playing in a military tournament (say EX Strong Contender or Nationals in Borden), then you are considered "on duty." You will get TD status if you are playing out of your geographical area.

Your unit cannot have it both ways. It doesn't get representation with out covering the members.

We just got approval for a member to be on TD to participate in an international level competition in Sep. No problems, but we had to cover the TD.

The only thing we cannot cover with public funds (i.e. TD costs) is the registration fee. You can apply to PSP to off-set that, but their budgets were slashed this year so don't expect any help from them unless you are CISM (and even they were cut in a number of areas this year). You can also ask that your unit's Unit Fund (NPF) be sued to off-set the registration costs.

We go through this every year with curling bonspiels. If it is a sanctioned sport, and your unit is sending a team, they must cover you. There is no other way. You also usually need approval one higher (or two) depending on the level of competition (local, national or international).

The CFAO's are still valid and quite extensive, and not too bad straight forward wise either.

Wook

p.s. bonspiel isn't in the spell check dictionary. Just struck me as funny. That is all.

Jim Seggie · « **Reply #7 on:** November 04, 2011, 15:34:02 »

To add, I am no administrative genius, but your unit is not being ethical. To send troops without proper support is unethical and immoral. Its like saying "here's some uniforms, go to war but by the way we aren't feeding you or giving you ammunition - that's on your own dime"

My two cents.

DB323334 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 08, 2011, 18:09:01 »

Thank you all for your input, I've done some research myself and I'm going to present the case below.

In regards to CTO/Post EX leave

Special Leave (Relocation) is available to ensure members are available to attend to the packing/loading/unloading/unpacking of HG&E and preparation of insurance claims related to the relocation.
In addition, when a member is away from home on duty for operations and training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings within or outside Canada, Special Leave (Relocation) may be granted at the discretion of the CO.In theses circumstances, grants of the leave shall be in accordance with the graduated scale prescribed in paragraph 5.11.11 Table 2.

The Table to refer to is at pages 45-46 and 47.

TABLE 2
Part 1 – Within Canada 14 Days or More
IF serving away from home on duty for operations, training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings within Canada for…    THEN the following amount of Special Leave (Relocation) may be granted by the CO…
14 to 30 days      1 day pre-deployment granted prior to departure
2 days post-deployment granted immediately upon return
31 days or more    2 days pre-deployment granted prior to departure
2 days post-deployment granted immediately upon return

http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgcb/dppd/pdf/LeavePolicyManual_e.pdf

Therefore special leave may be granted at the discretion of the CO. Discretion is the ability and right to decide exactly what should be done in a particular situation.

As for TD, the CF sports program is different then Unit events. A member may not be on leave for regionals, nationals etc...but a member can participate in Unit run events as long as it's approved by their chain of command. The approval will also guarantee coverage in case there is an injury. For example members that wish to participate in morning hockey for PT while on mata/pata leave simply need approval from their COC and will be covered in case something happens to them.

My reference for this was the local PSP staff.

PMedMoe · « **Reply #9 on:** November 08, 2011, 18:26:41 »

So, were you on "operations and training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings within or outside Canada" over 14 days to be granted special leave?

~~Not to mention, in your original post, you stated "it says in a BSO that 'No member shall participate in any CF sports program while on any form of leave'."~~

(Emphasis mine).

Occam · « **Reply #10 on:** November 08, 2011, 18:45:19 »

The BSO in this case is overridden as there is a national policy on this subject.

For the OP - did the PSP staff give you the message which superceded the CANFORGEN on this very issue?

DB323334 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 08, 2011, 18:50:21 »

In addition, PSP only covers the CF Sports program and out of service events. For out of service events you can claim up to $500.

Wookilar, you mentioned that
"We go through this every year with curling bonspiels. If it is a sanctioned sport, and your unit is sending a team, they must cover you. There is no other way. You also usually need approval one higher (or two) depending on the level of competition (local, national or international)."

In CFAO 50-3

58. Travel and temporary duty is authorized from present unit funds under this order for the following CISM activities:

CISM General Assembly Meeting;
CISM Regional Meetings;
CISM World Competitions;
CISM Regional Competitions and tournaments;
CISM Academy Meetings;
CF Training Camps and courses; and
Out-Service Training Schools and Clinics.

Even if I have the right to TD, it doesn't mean I have to take it. I agreed with my COC that I will attend without TD. Therefore I'm going to this tournament on my own time. If I wasn't then I believe TD would be a must.

DB323334 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 08, 2011, 18:55:32 »

Occam,

I will ask PSP for the message that supercedes the BSO tomorrow.

I will then present my case and let you all know how it turns out.

Occam · « **Reply #13 on:** November 08, 2011, 19:21:57 »

Quote from: DB323334 on November 08, 2011, 18:55:32

Occam,

I will ask PSP for the message that supercedes the BSO tomorrow.

I will then present my case and let you all know how it turns out.

It doesn't supercede the BSO. The BSO likely references the CANFORGEN, but now that the CANFORGEN is superceded, the BSO doesn't stand either.

The message supercedes the CANFORGEN. I can't remember who put out the message, but I do recall wondering why something ~~less~~ different than a CANFORGEN was used to supercede a CANFORGEN. The PSP people have it...or at least the Ottawa ones do.

Pusser · « **Reply #14 on:** November 09, 2011, 12:36:48 »

Quote from: DB323334 on November 08, 2011, 18:09:01

Thank you all for your input, I've done some research myself and I'm going to present the case below.

In regards to CTO/Post EX leave

Special Leave (Relocation) is available to ensure members are available to attend to the packing/loading/unloading/unpacking of HG&E and preparation of insurance claims related to the relocation.
In addition, when a member is away from home on duty for operations and training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings within or outside Canada, Special Leave (Relocation) may be granted at the discretion of the CO.In theses circumstances, grants of the leave shall be in accordance with the graduated scale prescribed in paragraph 5.11.11 Table 2.

The Table to refer to is at pages 45-46 and 47.

TABLE 2
Part 1 – Within Canada 14 Days or More
IF serving away from home on duty for operations, training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings within Canada for…    THEN the following amount of Special Leave (Relocation) may be granted by the CO…
14 to 30 days      1 day pre-deployment granted prior to departure
2 days post-deployment granted immediately upon return
31 days or more    2 days pre-deployment granted prior to departure
2 days post-deployment granted immediately upon return

http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgcb/dppd/pdf/LeavePolicyManual_e.pdf

Therefore special leave may be granted at the discretion of the CO. Discretion is the ability and right to decide exactly what should be done in a particular situation.

Wohhhh! The policy you're quoting on Special Leave (Relocation) has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your situation.

As for the general statement that COs have discretion to approve Special Leave, yes they do, in accordance with the approved policies. However, COs cannot make up reasons for Special Leave or create their own versions of it. As I said before, Special Leave is not a catch-all means of approving leave for things not specifically covered by other types of leave. Special Leave IS specific in nature. The CO only has discretion in granting Special Leave in that he/she determines whether you meet the established criteria for whatever type of Special Leave is being requested. He/she has no discretion in determining what that criteria should be. There is no Special Leave for attendance at sporting events as a player. Short Leave could be considered in this case, but not Special Leave.

DB323334 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 09, 2011, 16:19:26 »

Pusser,

I was on EX but due manning issues I won't be able to take the Post EX leave until end of Nov. The leave policy states that no special will be used for sporting events.

In any case, I've learned a lot about leave and sports regulations. I appreciate everyone's input.

Pusser · « **Reply #16 on:** November 09, 2011, 18:03:28 »

Quote from: DB323334 on November 09, 2011, 16:19:26

Pusser,

I was on EX but due manning issues I won't be able to take the Post EX leave until end of Nov. The leave policy states that no special will be used for sporting events.

In any case, I've learned a lot about leave and sports regulations. I appreciate everyone's input.

OK. Now I see the connection.

Thaern · « **Reply #17 on:** January 05, 2012, 04:23:48 »

Hey, I hate to Necro an dying thread but i had a question that sort of fits in with the theme.

I'm a reservist and one of my subordinates recently approached me about an issue she has regarding the PSP run hockey team. Apparently now that her class B contract is up she can no longer play with the team while on class A. I have a bunch of questions regarding this but they really boil down into two. Firstly, does anyone have any information regarding the policies/directives what limit reservists participation with psp sports team. And the second, (which i might be able to answer myself if i could find the darn policy) is there any way to allow her to participate. I have tried browsing the PSP site and found a link entitled PARTICIPATION IN CF SPORTS PROGRAM - 169-07 but its and old link and wouldn't open from my home or work computer.

Any info or insight you guys have would be appreciated.

Thank you.

airmich · « **Reply #18 on:** January 05, 2012, 04:42:10 »

I suspect that it boils down to liability and such, but I'm sure it's stated somewhere what and why. Here is some reading for you to start with. The link that you found is a Canforgen:

Quote

CANFORGEN 169/07 CMP 074/07 161941Z NOV 07
PARTICIPATION IN CF SPORTS PROGRAM
UNCLASSIFIED

THE CANADIAN FORCES SPORTS PROGRAM CONSISTS OF INTERSECTION/INTRAMURAL COMPETITIONS AT THE BASE/WING LEVEL, REGIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS, NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS AND CONSEIL INTERNATIONAL DU SPORT MILITAIRE (CISM)

IT HAS BEEN BROUGHT TO MY ATTENTION THAT CF MEMBERS ARE SOMETIMES ENCOURAGED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE CF SPORTS PROGRAM WHILE ON LEAVE. THE AIM OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO CONFIRM THAT CF MEMBERS ARE ON DUTY WHILE PARTICIPATING IN AUTHORIZED SPORTS ACTIVITIES. FURTHERMORE, TRAVEL AND TRANSPORTATION COSTS SHALL BE AUTHORIZED FOR CF CHAMPIONSHIPS AT THE COMMAND, REGIONAL AND NATIONAL LEVELS. COMPLETE DETAILS ON CF MEMBERS PARTICIPATION IN SPORTS IS CONTAINED IN CFAO 50-3

COMMANDERS ARE ENCOURAGED TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THIS IMPORTANT FITNESS AND HEALTH RELATED PROGRAM

THE OPI FOR THIS ACTIVITY IS GAETAN MELANCON, DPE / CFPAS, HE CAN BE CONTACTED AT 613-992-2799

SIGNED BY MGEN W. SEMIANIW, CHIEF MILITARY PERSONNEL

It references CFAO 50-3 which is here: http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/cfa-oaf/050-03-eng.asp

Occam · « **Reply #19 on:** January 05, 2012, 07:32:28 »

Quote from: airmich on January 05, 2012, 04:42:10

I suspect that it boils down to liability and such, but I'm sure it's stated somewhere what and why. Here is some reading for you to start with. The link that you found is a Canforgen:

That CANFORGEN was superceded by another message (not a CANFORGEN, although I'm not sure why they didn't target the same audience). That message reaffirms the "thou shalt not be on leave while participating in the CF Sports Program" stance, but clarifies some other policy issues.

Strike · « **Reply #20 on:** January 05, 2012, 10:18:32 »

The way I'm reading that is that her home unit would have to pay for her to be on Class A time during practices and games.

PuckChaser · « **Reply #21 on:** January 05, 2012, 13:00:35 »

We have Cl A members playing hockey at CFB Kingston for the intersection leagues. Those members are permitted to play on their own time (and I presume own risk) and are not reimbursed for practices and games. Cl A members aren't allowed on Base Teams, they require a Cl B contract for the duration of the "season". This is far better than it used to be, Cl A members needed to buy a IS Sports Card for $20 to have the right to play with their unit teams on their own dime.

Occam is right, 50-3 was clarified about a year after. Its intent was to prevent people from being on MATA/PATA/other leave from going away on Regional/National sports tournaments and collecting TD, but everyone read into it more than that and some individuals weren't allowed to play when they had a short day on a Friday.

CountDC · « **Reply #22 on:** January 05, 2012, 15:29:35 »

hmmmm be interesting to see what happens down the road when one of those players get injured, are not able to work and submits a request for compensation. Have seen some funnies with those and this may turn out to be another one.

dapaterson · « **Reply #23 on:** January 05, 2012, 15:41:26 »

As long as they fill out their "Exercise to stay in shape for the CF" form (the formal designation eludes me, but I beleive it's included with the LFCO on fitness) and include hockey on it, they are covered under the CBI for Reserve Disability Compensation.

So it's not hockey - it's a fitness activity on their own time.

Aerobicrunner · « **Reply #24 on:** January 05, 2012, 17:44:37 »

You got it Count DMC, each case will have its own unique circumstance and I had a recent Reserve Force Compensation (RFC) issue I had to deal with (To keep privacy but to provide information I have removed the team sport played. However, it was not an extreme activity).

The Class A individual who was injured was playing [a team sport] with a garrison team and as a result of his leg injuries was unable to work in his civilian job. [This team sport], along with several other team sports such as hockey and broomball, was recognized by the Base Commander as authorized sports for full time military pers. The individual played on the team on his own time and was not signed in. (Reserve CO's will not allow individuals to sign in for team sports on their own time, as the costs associated would be prohibitive - i.e. signing in for every practice and game would be giving unfair financial advantage to those individuals - basically getting paid to compete in sports).
However, it was argued that current policy (i.e. CANFORGEN 115/08) states that members are deemed to be on class A duty if injured in an authorized and prescribed fitness program when engaged in fitness activity. The RFC was submitted and after going back and forth with NDHQ about what constitutes an prescribed activity, this was the response:

The request for Disability Compensation on behalf of xx was reviewed by DCSM.
Based on the information on the file, xx was injured while playing [the sport]. This activity does not fall in the parameters of CBI 210.72(4) - Deemed Class A Service, as [the sport] is not a prescribed activity, as part of an authorized fitness program of the CF Expres or the LFCPFS program.
If this was a Unit activity directed by his Commanding Officer, xx should have been signed in at the time of the injury, which he was not.
Unless further information is made available, this request cannot be approved.

P.S. I noticed that the term Reserve Disability Compensation has been used. CANFORGEN 115/08 also officially changed the name from "Compensation for Disability and Death Gratuity - Reserve Force" to "Reserve Force Compensation (RFC) During a Period of Injury, Disease or Illness." I have to keep reminding unit Adjt's and Adm staff of that change of name

dapaterson · « **Reply #25 on:** January 05, 2012, 18:43:32 »

Quote from: Aerobicrunner on January 05, 2012, 17:44:37

The request for Disability Compensation on behalf of xx was reviewed by DCSM.
Based on the information on the file, xx was injured while playing [the sport]. This activity does not fall in the parameters of CBI 210.72(4) - Deemed Class A Service, as [the sport] is not a prescribed activity, as part of an authorized fitness program of the CF Expres or the LFCPFS program.
If this was a Unit activity directed by his Commanding Officer, xx should have been signed in at the time of the injury, which he was not.
Unless further information is made available, this request cannot be approved.

P.S. I noticed that the term Reserve Disability Compensation has been used. CANFORGEN 115/08 also officially changed the name from "Compensation for Disability and Death Gratuity - Reserve Force" to "Reserve Force Compensation (RFC) During a Period of Injury, Disease or Illness." I have to keep reminding unit Adjt's and Adm staff of that change of name

However, had Bloggins properly indicated on his exercise prescription form that he participated in inter-base tiddly-winks, his tiddly-winks injury would have been covered. In my unit, at least, those forms are completed annually as part fo the DAG, and all soldiers are encouraged to include all exercise and physical activites they participate in.

Of course, were I Bloggins in this case, I would submit a grievance - there's a degree of subjectivity in this, together with an overly legalistic approach by DCSM. CBI 210.72(4) is there specifically to cover individuals not signed in but conducting fitness on their own time. "Not signed in" is irrelevant (at least, irrelevant under 210.72(4)).

Aerobicrunner · « **Reply #26 on:** January 05, 2012, 19:31:27 »

Quote from: dapaterson on January 05, 2012, 18:43:32

However, had Bloggins properly indicated on his exercise prescription form that he participated in inter-base tiddly-winks, his tiddly-winks injury would have been covered. In my unit, at least, those forms are completed annually as part fo the DAG, and all soldiers are encouraged to include all exercise and physical activites they participate in.

Of course, were I Bloggins in this case, I would submit a grievance - there's a degree of subjectivity in this, together with an overly legalistic approach by DCSM. CBI 210.72(4) is there specifically to cover individuals not signed in but conducting fitness on their own time. "Not signed in" is irrelevant (at least, irrelevant under 210.72(4)).

Oh right, I neglected to mention that he had both the memo from the unit and his LFCPFS form annotated that he could do the sport. These were provided with the memo from the Base Commander saying that these are the authorized sports under his command as part of the RFC request. However, as I mentioned, despite several discussions between DCSM (director and others), next level HQ, JPSU rep and others, his compensation was still denied stating that team sports not part of a unit signed in activity are not considered part of the overall authorized and prescribed fitness plan. So anyway, it is up to him what he does next and will see if anything changes in the future or if anyone else gets into the same situation.

PuckChaser · « **Reply #27 on:** January 05, 2012, 20:07:54 »

Quote from: Aerobicrunner on January 05, 2012, 19:31:27

Oh right, I neglected to mention that he had both the memo from the unit and his LFCPFS form annotated that he could do the sport. These were provided with the memo from the Base Commander saying that these are the authorized sports under his command as part of the RFC request. However, as I mentioned, despite several discussions between DCSM (director and others), next level HQ, JPSU rep and others, his compensation was still denied stating that team sports not part of a unit signed in activity are not considered part of the overall authorized and prescribed fitness plan. So anyway, it is up to him what he does next and will see if anything changes in the future or if anyone else gets into the same situation.

Wonder how that denial of compensation would look on the front page of the Ottawa Citizen. "Soldier denied compensation for injury during authorized sports".

dapaterson · « **Reply #28 on:** January 05, 2012, 20:17:16 »

Quote from: Aerobicrunner on January 05, 2012, 19:31:27

Oh right, I neglected to mention that he had both the memo from the unit and his LFCPFS form annotated that he could do the sport. These were provided with the memo from the Base Commander saying that these are the authorized sports under his command as part of the RFC request. However, as I mentioned, despite several discussions between DCSM (director and others), next level HQ, JPSU rep and others, his compensation was still denied stating that team sports not part of a unit signed in activity are not considered part of the overall authorized and prescribed fitness plan. So anyway, it is up to him what he does next and will see if anything changes in the future or if anyone else gets into the same situation.

That is alarming. There has been clear direction from the CDS and many levels below on the importance of fitness; this individual acted on them and followed the directions given to report on what he does to say in shape, and now is being refused coverage?

Pusser · « **Reply #29 on:** January 05, 2012, 23:01:40 »

The case above is what I would consider to be a very grey area, which we as an organization have not yet fully come to grips with. Notwithstanding CDS direction, I'm think the law of unintended consequences is very much at play here. I wonder how it would be looked at if the individual concerned were playing in a civilian league (with all appropriate paperwork completed and fully explaining that this activity was part of his exercise prescription)?

On a more generic note, intramural sports teams are "clubs" within the PSP structure and as such are bound by normal club rules which restrict the number of reservists (as well as retirees and/or DND civilians) that can participate. It's a percentage of the total membership. Some activities are obviously restricted in the total number of members they can have (e.g. a hockey program will have a maximum number of participants because the amount of ice time available is finite). The rules also state that regular force members have first crack at the available spots. If the program can be filled with regular force members, then no reservists can participate. I give the example of the CFSU(O) hockey leagues. They are currently restricted to regular force and full time reservists, but there are also waiting lists to get in from the regular and full-time reserve communities. If the priority applicants have to sit on a waiting list, there is simply no room for the Class A crowd.

In general, Class A personnel are not prohibited from participating in base clubs and intramural sports activities, but in some cases, they are too far down the pecking order to be allowed to participate simply because the folks higher up in the order fill all the spots. I suspect that this is what has happened here.

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Author Topic: I need your help to attend a military hockey tournament (Read 3177 times)