Topic: Canada Command boss: More equipment than needed?!?

[milnews.ca]

If quoted properly, of course - highlights mine....

Canadian Forces are deployed in a variety of hot spots around the globe, but keeping citizens safe here at home is job No. 1, says the military commander in charge of domestic and continental operations.

Despite much talk about stretched resources in recent years, Lt. Gen. Walter Semianiw said Canada Command has the equipment it requires, and more, to successfully fulfill its critical, busy mandate. He told MPs on the defence committee Tuesday the unit is well-prepared to juggle a multitude of tasks — from fighting forest fires or terrorist attacks, to responding to disasters and search and rescue needs.

“There are no equipment shortages. We actually have more than we need,” Semianiw said ....

Huffington Post Canada, 29 Nov 11

[Towards_the_gap]

I am left speechless......how can anyone put out a statement so obviously false??

[Journeyman]

......how can anyone put out a statement so obviously false??

It's not "obviously false."

From the perspective of the guy who will be called upon to deal with fighting forest fires or shoveling snow in Toronto, all those Leopard tanks, CF18s, or other war-fighting kit are unnecessary.


....it may even buy a few NDP votes   

[Haggis]

From the perspective of the guy who will be called upon to deal with fighting forest fires or shoveling snow in Toronto, all those Leopard tanks, CF18s, or other war-fighting kit are unnecessary.

Canada Command has the ability to draw on all the resources of the CF to concentrate "combat power" within the domestic AOR. 

However, Canada Command is but one entity in the CF.  He may have sufficient equipment while the other commands/L1's do not.

[Journeyman]

Canada Command has the ability to draw on all the resources of the CF to concentrate "combat power" within the domestic AOR. 

However, Canada Command is but one entity in the CF.  He may have sufficient equipment while the other commands/L1's do not.

True, and patently obvious, but he's not speaking on behalf of the other L1s -- it says quite clearly:

Lt. Gen. Walter Semianiw said Canada Command has the equipment it requires, and more, to successfully fulfill its critical, busy mandate

What domestic scenario do you envisage that we have insufficient resources to address? From the vantage point of NDHQ, how many Leopards and CF18s would it take to evict squatters from their tentage in downtown Toronto?

[Haggis]

From the vantage point of NDHQ, how many Leopards and CF18s would it take to evict squatters from their tentage in downtown Toronto?

Ontario voters had the opportunity to do that in October but re-elected McGuinty's Liberals instead. :-D

[Old Sweat]

True, and patently obvious, but he's not speaking on behalf of the other L1s -- it says quite clearly:  What domestic scenario do you envisage that we have insufficient resources to address?

A Richter Scale 8 or 9 earthquake in Vancouver or the Straits of Juan de Fuca comes to mind, even with the ability to grab the civvy plant that might still be available.

[jollyjacktar]

A problem I see with his comment is that the great unwashed will see the CF has more equipment than they need, not that one facet of the machine is doing well.  I am sure there will be more strident calls from many quarters to see a peace dividend.  I for one would not like to see a repeat of the Uncle Jean years.

[X Royal]

Ontario voters had the opportunity to do that in October but re-elected McGuinty's Liberals instead. :-D

I'd sure like to here your explanation on how the Ontario election results has anything to do with why the protesters where in the park in Toronto or even any of the the other protests across Canada?
If anything it would be more a protest against the PC's.

[Journeyman]

A Richter Scale 8 or 9 earthquake in Vancouver or the Straits of Juan de Fuca comes to mind, even with the ability to grab the civvy plant that might still be available.

Fair enough. I assumed that Semianiw was speaking within the bounds of no military affording to equip for an absolute worst-case scenario.

[ArmyRick]

Switching fire back to topic.

If the boss of Canada command says he has enough, than we probably do, for DOM OPS. I do agree with the comment that most Canadians will not know the difference between Canada Command and the other commands.

One journalist could easily take this and put a bad spin on it.

[Oldgateboatdriver]

A Richter Scale 8 or 9 earthquake in Vancouver or the Straits of Juan de Fuca comes to mind, even with the ability to grab the civvy plant that might still be available.

Old Sweat is bang on with that scenario.

Here's another one: A low level terror campaign in North America. Nothing as grandiose as 9/11, but a series of small bombings spread throughout Canada and the US at say 3 to 6 weeks intervals. The defence of points of interests would stretch resources beyond current levels.

During the Troubles, the Brits had 13 batallions of infantry in Belfast alone: Your talking about a single city just a little bigger than Halifax. Where in all the CF would we find the people and equipment to provide security in, say, all the cities of half-a-million people (calculated on a metropolitan regional basis)?

[Old Sweat]

Here's another one: A low level terror campaign in North America. Nothing as grandiose as 9/11, but a series of small bombings spread throughout Canada and the US at say 3 to 6 weeks intervals. The defence of points of interests would stretch resources beyond current levels.

During the Troubles, the Brits had 13 batallions of infantry in Belfast alone: Your talking about a single city just a little bigger than Halifax. Where in all the CF would we find the people and equipment to provide security in, say, all the cities of half-a-million people (calculated on a metropolitan regional basis)?

In the 1970 FLQ crisis, the CF had a battalion in Cyprus, two battalions plus an armoured and an artillery regiment in Germany and seven infantry battalions, three armoured and three artillery regiments as well as the airborne regiment at home. Virtually every combat arms unit at home except for one battalion and odds and sods was deployed on Op Ginger (assistance to civil authority in the National Capital Region) or Op Essay (aid of the civil power) in Quebec. Imagine if a widespread series of attacks developed across Canada in the near future.

[Journeyman]

OK OK      I never liked Semianiw anyway   

[Haggis]

I'd sure like to here your explanation on how the Ontario election results has anything to do with why the protesters where in the park in Toronto or even any of the the other protests across Canada?
If anything it would be more a protest against the PC's.

I though the Liberals were the squatters.  My bad :-)

[Haggis]

Virtually every Regular Force combat arms unit at home except for one battalion and odds and sods was deployed on Op Ginger (assistance to civil authority in the National Capital Region) or Op Essay (aid of the civil power) in Quebec. Imagine if a widespread series of attacks developed across Canada in the near future.

Fixed it for you :-)

Two points to consider:
1. police forces of the day were less robust and had fewer tactical and operational capablilites; and
2. P Res units were not deployed on Op GINGER and ESSAY as conventional wisdom held that neither the units or individual soldiers were suitable to the task, nor were they required given the number of soldiers in the Regular Force at that time.  Contrast that with recent experience (PODIUM, CADENCE etc.) 

[CDN Aviator]

  What domestic scenario .......

Are all Canada Command operations in Canada ?

No.

I cant think of at least one case where more resources are indeed needed to (seriously) have the required effect.

[Jim Seggie]

I though the Liberals were the squatters.  My bad :-)

I thought your reply was humourous....in fact you owe me a keyboard. 

[foresterab]

True, and patently obvious, but he's not speaking on behalf of the other L1s -- it says quite clearly:  What domestic scenario do you envisage that we have insufficient resources to address? From the vantage point of NDHQ, how many Leopards and CF18s would it take to evict squatters from their tentage in downtown Toronto?

Well..here's a forest fire situation for you. Talking with some US Forest Service staff who were dealing with a fire outside of Ren, NV.  24,000 acre fire (10,000 ha) had 25,000 people associated with the fire from 13 different agencies, 5 states, and 3 federal departments.

Or the fact that Idaho, Montana and Colorado put out warnings last year regarding helicopter availability as the National Guard unit that provided those states with aviation support was deploying overseas and they were unable to hire sufficent numbers of suitable aircraft locally.  Virgina Hills fire in 1998 had 170 helicopters working on it...that's a large part of Canada's civilian fleet.

In Alberta by the end of May this year we had close to 2,000 people deployed on fires which represented almost all resources for Alberta, British Columbia and Ontario.  Additional support came from NB, NS, Nfld., Parks Canada, and Mexico.   Armed Foreces staff were on flood duties in Manitoba and Quebec while the Air Force was invloved with evacuations in Saskatewan. 

A couple of bad fires close to communities or other natural disasters and it's very easy to deplete the provincial resources available.  Keeping in mind that although we tend to focues on forest fires we also respond to floods, tornados etc. as part of the mandate of emergancy response.  People consistently underestimate weather and the efforts/cost needed to try to control situations so having an "over equipped" Armed Forces in your back pocket is a good thing as you can then blend equipment and manpower if required.

Anyways...a civilian's take on what Domestic Operations could look like.
foresterab

[ouyin2000]

Switching fire back to topic.

If the boss of Canada command says he has enough, than we probably do, for DOM OPS. ....

Sure we may have enough on the books. But some units have up to an 80% VOR rate on their heavy lift vehicles right now...

[Brihard]

Fixed it for you :-)

Two points to consider:
1. police forces of the day were less robust and had fewer tactical and operational capablilites; and
2. P Res units were not deployed on Op GINGER and ESSAY as conventional wisdom held that neither the units or individual soldiers were suitable to the task, nor were they required given the number of soldiers in the Regular Force at that time.  Contrast that with recent experience (PODIUM, CADENCE etc.)

Our experiences on CADENCE along with the thrust of the recent TBG exercise suggests to me that 'ability to engage with Canadian civilians without screwing everything up' is one of the unstated training goals of the TBG construct, which of course would be the force generation mechanism for such a security-oriented DOMOP. I'd also throw in that the institutionalization of the IA capability and the very heavy reserve presence therein has built up a modest but critical core of reservists in most of our regiments with experience in CIMIC and somewhat fuzzier let's-deal-with-civilians tasks.

If a bit of hubris could be permitted, I'd be inclined to think that reservists across the board would probably be at least as good if not better at dealing with our civilian population in the manner desired by higher during a DOMOP, simply for the reasont hat there's much tighter integration between reservists and the civilian community. Most of us are 'in and of' the population in question for most of our time most days.

[Old Sweat]

Some very good points, indeed. Remember that Ops Ginger and Essay were no notice operations and things happened very quickly. Recent domestic operations had the advantage of time to plan and prepare, which would not necessarily be the case in the event of a natural disaster and perhaps not in case of civil striff such as a series of attacks. However, I agree that overall the CF is in much better shape than in 1970, and a large part of that is because our reserves are of much higher quality than way back then.

[dapaterson]

If a bit of hubris could be permitted, I'd be inclined to think that reservists across the board would probably be at least as good if not better at dealing with our civilian population in the manner desired by higher during a DOMOP, simply for the reasont hat there's much tighter integration between reservists and the civilian community. Most of us are 'in and of' the population in question for most of our time most days.

Challenges:

(1)  Many Reservists are first responders in their communities and thus would be unavailable in a time of crisis;

(2)  In the event of a natural disaster, Reservists and their families may be among the affected and be engaged in self recovery, vice being available  to assist; and

(3)  Risk of poisoning the well - in the event of any incident of violence, the future relations between the Reserves and the community could be impacted, regardless of who is responsible.


And, finally, the devil's advocate: Remember, the Chinese had to bring in soldiers from far, far away to clear Tianamen Square of protesters.


(Old Sweat:  Back in '98 we didn't have much time to prepare.  (And, by sayng "Back in '98" I realize that I am now, officially, on the road to old coot-dom.))

[recceguy]

I still haven't got my Territorial Battalion ATVs yet Two years and counting

[kratz]

Here's my take on the challenges mentioned:

(1)  Many Reservists are first responders in their communities and thus would be unavailable in a time of crisis;

Agreed, to a point. Most units I have been in those first repsonders only represent a fraction of the 100% that could be called up. Looking at other reserve units in the community and local area, this challenge is not an issue IMO.

(2)  In the event of a natural disaster, Reservists and their families may be among the affected and be engaged in self recovery, vice being available  to assist; and

I agree again, but use the plans and organization for Y2K as an example. These issues can be pre-planned to be dealt with in most scenrarios through CanCom can be greatly mitigated by accounting for this very issue.

(3)  Risk of poisoning the well - in the event of any incident of violence, the future relations between the Reserves and the community could be impacted, regardless of who is responsible.

Three for three, I agree with noticing this challenge, but again there are ways to mitigate it. With the current CanCom (ROEs - ie: Op CADENCE), the concern is as low as can reasonably be.