Topic: Official Policy Change RE: Electronics during BMQ/BMOQ

[1984]

There has been larger policy shifts in the CF over the last 20 years, and each time a policy changes some members (of similar thought as most of you here) has said this will be detrimental to the Canadian Forces as a whole.

Well perhaps it will be, and perhaps those other policy changes have had a net negative effect too.

But THIS Canadian Forces has just completed two successful huge missions, plus dozens of small ones, while transferring its main efforts from one theater to another plus morphed from a "peacekeeping" role to a combat role to a tng role in the last 10 years.

I'd say the doom-and-gloom is uncalled for, and its time to earn your "Leading Change" bubble on your PER, as we leaders find a way to mitigate whatever negative effects of this policy may arise.

I know where you've been working for the last 6years and I know how motivated your personnel can be.  Back in the REAL world I've learned that the grass is truly greener on your side of the fence.  It is BAD out here, at least in my little microcosm, and the failure is systemic.  We have the same workload within the world of Operational Support and are short on trained/experienced leaders and overall manpower, the last thing we need is a hoard of disciplinary issues.  It is unfair that the units have to do the heavy lifting with regards to shaping these kids, in my mind the shaping should be done in the training system and when they are passed onto me I WILL then do MY part and ensure that the new shape is maintained while I endeavour to fill that empty vessel.  At the end of the day I have a role to fill and a task to accomplish which is made all the harder when the troops won't even polish their boots because they do not understand "why" they should, and when disciplinary/administrative action is brought to bear everyone walks around with an even bigger lip and a chip on their shoulder.  What does all this have to do with 'electronics during BMQ"?  It's one more straw on the camel's back.

[CDN Aviator]

I'd say the doom-and-gloom is uncalled for,

There is no doom-and-gloom being said. The CF will get on and get the job done quite well. What is deplorable is that we have shifted the burden of indoctrinating recruits from CFLRS to the trade schools and operational units, all in the name of reducing VRs.

A broken clock is right twice a day but it is still broken.

[ARMY_101]

Technology is a part of the forces, but allowing recruits access to iphone crap so they don't quit BMQ is pathetic.

If they can't last 4weeks without posting their BMQ ninja sniper stories in their facebook status then they don't belong in the Forces.

What precisely is wrong with allowing someone to call home, text friends, or see what's new in their social circles?

I agree: if someone is so addicted to their phone that it's distracting them from training or holding them back from studying for a test, cleaning, etc., then by all means take it away and discipline them.  And if they're releasing because someone told them to put their phone away, then I'd also agree that they probably don't belong in a trade where they very well may have to go days, weeks, or months without texting or checking Facebook.

I don't know of anyone who couldn't put their phone down or leave it back in the barracks during training.  Most people wouldn't even want to bring it out during training for an exercise or for the day for fear that it would be damaged.  But at night, when everything's done and you're just waiting for orders or sitting on your bed with nothing to do, what's wrong with saying hi to the family?

[cypres78]

The problem is this policy was brought in because people were quitting over it. Weak. Other then that I don't really care if they have cell phones.

[DexOlesa]

See THAT I can get on board with as a complaint. I can and do go without my phone as did everyone else on the course. They were never taken away, but we were not to use them during the day, only after hours and weekends, and even then I used it sparingly as did anyone else I saw. But yes people that would quit over not getting their phones for 4 weeks (and you still get them if there is an emergency) should not be in the forces.

[CDN Aviator]

And if they're releasing because someone told them to put their phone away, then I'd also agree that they probably don't belong in a trade where they very well may have to go days, weeks, or months without texting or checking Facebook.

So why change the policy to coddle people who were VR'ing due to not having their toys ?

nothing to do,

Thats the problem right there............

[GnyHwy]

What precisely is wrong with allowing someone to call home, text friends, or see what's new in their social circles?

Social media is a distraction, plain and simple; even if it's turned off.  Everything second that is spent thinking about if someone replied to your message, or thinking about what you're going to write in your next message is a second that is not spent focused on training.  Those seconds add up quick and by the end of a 13 week period will sum to a hell of a lot of time.

This does not stop after recruit training.  I know of more than one occasion where troops (Pte to MCpl) were not allowed to use to use their phones except for lunch; not even breaks.  Snr NCMs and Os do not get any special treatment either.  If they are using social media when they are suppose to be working, they get in crap too.

Communications of all types in the recruit school should be limited to a short window per day.  I say 1-2 hours after supper or your last period; that is usually when our brain is mush anyway.  Special circumstances can be handled on a case by case basis.

Recruits,  you left home to be a soldier.  Cut the cord and move on.  Don't worry, your friends and family will still be there when it's over.

[Allgunzblazing]

GnyHwy,

I couldn't agree more. Especially what you said about electronic gadgets being a distraction even when turned off. The fact that only the task at hand should be on their minds, can take some people a while to grasp. More so, when the distractions are not out of bounds.

Cheers,

AGB.

[DirtyDog]

Another bold illustration of why the CF is becoming a joke.  Talk to any infantry NCO these days and see how happy they are with the state of things (or rather, more disgruntled than usual).

Yet no one I speak to can seem to put a pin on it.  Post Afghan hang-over?

Anybody that supports a decision like that needs a slap.

[ARMY_101]

Social media is a distraction, plain and simple; even if it's turned off.  Everything second that is spent thinking about if someone replied to your message, or thinking about what you're going to write in your next message is a second that is not spent focused on training.  Those seconds add up quick and by the end of a 13 week period will sum to a hell of a lot of time.

And you're speaking from first hand experience on this?  I've never seen anyone so distracted or urgently awaiting a Facebook message that they're pre-occupied with sending, receiving, or checking their messages.  Most people have enough common sense to know when and where is appropriate to check their messages, and it would only take one screw up once to fix any ambiguities.

I checked my phone at night or when nothing else was going on.  During the day it was tucked away and only used as a clock when needed.

[jasonf6]

What precisely is wrong with allowing someone to call home, text friends, or see what's new in their social circles?

For me, when I was at St. Jean back in '94 (and we didn't have cell phones really or the interwebs) I didn't worry about anything other than keeping my **** in order in my cubicle and on my floor.  I didn't worry about calling home (because I know where it was and where it would be when I was done) or anything.  Kids nowadays (No, Im no social expert) are too attached to their gadgets; yes, they serve a purpose in today's CF but again, to me, basic is there to prepare you for life in the CF.  The iPhones, Crackberries and the like will be there in 13-weeks. 

[ARMY_101]

So why change the policy to coddle people who were VR'ing due to not having their toys ?

I don't see why it was policy to confiscate electronics in the first place.  If the privilege was being abused then sure, take that person's/section's/platoon's phones away, but as discussed above, what's the problem with checking the news or media updates on your own down time?

I'd have to see the official wording of the order, as well as the cases of individuals who specifically said "I voluntarily release because Sgt. Jones wouldn't let me use my phone."  That probably won't happen, so we're left only to hypothesize...

Thats the problem right there............

Down time is necessary and okay.  Training can already run from 16-20 hours a day; what's wrong with an hour of "nothing to do"?

[CDN Aviator]

And you're speaking from first hand experience on this?  I've never seen anyone so distracted or urgently awaiting a Facebook message that they're pre-occupied with sending, receiving, or checking their messages.  Most people have enough common sense to know when and where is appropriate to check their messages, and it would only take one screw up once to fix any ambiguities.

I checked my phone at night or when nothing else was going on.  During the day it was tucked away and only used as a clock when needed.

101.....the policy was changed specifically to reduce the instance of VRs. Say this out loud a few times until you see whats wrong with that.

It doesn't matter if people have common sense or not, the fact is that people were getting out because they couldn't have their toys. You don't see a problem down the line with that ?

[CDN Aviator]

so we're left only to hypothesize...

No, we have the word of a CFLRS instructor, whom i know personally.

[ballz]

And you're speaking from first hand experience on this?  I've never seen anyone so distracted or urgently awaiting a Facebook message that they're pre-occupied with sending, receiving, or checking their messages. Most people have enough common sense to know when and where is appropriate to check their messages, and it would only take one screw up once to fix any ambiguities.

We clearly don't live on the same planet.

EDIT spelling

[BulletMagnet]

Army 101

I am a instructor at CFLRS the person who started this thread so that potential recruits could stop constantly asking what the policy was re electronics (it had recently changed) I will reiterate something for you. from the Commandants mouth " Trials were done on 4 Platoons, those Platoons were allowed to keep their personal electronice (cells phones etc) it was shown that by allowing those recruits to keep their electronic devices that VR's were down 66%"

Now you could argue complete coincidence seeing as no one has ever said I'm VRing because I don't have my phone but the numbers say otherwise don't they.

Rider,

You know me I'm not the doom and gloom type and yes I will be the first to admit a huge culuture shock from working with you to going to CFLRS. I stand by my personal assesment that this system is not only wrong it is dangerous (the system as whole not just this policy). 

[DirtyDog]

And you're speaking from first hand experience on this?  I've never seen anyone so distracted or urgently awaiting a Facebook message that they're pre-occupied with sending, receiving, or checking their messages.  Most people have enough common sense to know when and where is appropriate to check their messages, and it would only take one screw up once to fix any ambiguities.

I checked my phone at night or when nothing else was going on.  During the day it was tucked away and only used as a clock when needed.

I've seen troops on operation (ever been on one?) get downright PISSY when they found out they'd be seperated from the internet for 72 hours.  I wouldn't normally say it's a generational thing, as there were a lot of guys in his age bracket who could handle a little austerity (know what that is?) now again, but it is FAR more common to see it among the younger troops who can't pull their faces out of their smart phone or laptop.

Anyone who sees fit to defend a decision like this is out of touch with what soldiering is about.  If a bunch of punks can't handle 4 weeks without their precious gadgets they need to be spit back out on the streets and their foul taste erased from the army's memory.

FYI - Electronics were allowed on most of my BMQ as it wasn't seen as much of a problem then and it didn't seem to be a distraction either.  However, there were many instances in my career with everything was strictly forbidden and somehow, I managed.

[ARMY_101]

Army 101

I am a instructor at CFLRS the person who started this thread so that potential recruits could stop constantly asking what the policy was re electronics (it had recently changed) I will reiterate something for you. from the Commandants mouth " Trials were done on 4 Platoons, those Platoons were allowed to keep their personal electronice (cells phones etc) it was shown that by allowing those recruits to keep their electronic devices that VR's were down 66%"

Now you could argue complete coincidence seeing as no one has ever said I'm VRing because I don't have my phone but the numbers say otherwise don't they.

Fair enough. I did not mean for my comments to suggest you were lying or unaware of what was said, if that's how it came out.

I think I've said my peace on this topic.

[jasonf6]

Anyone who sees fit to defend a decision like this is out of touch with what soldiering is about.  If a bunch of punks can't handle 4 weeks without their precious gadgets they need to be spit back out on the streets and their foul taste erased from the army's memory.

 

[GnyHwy]

And you're speaking from first hand experience on this? 

As an experienced instructor and leader of troops, yes.  It is very simple to tell when troops are distracted.  Is that entirely because of phones?  No, I don't believe so, but it I am certain that it is in some cases.

Now that it seems that I am a hardass jerk, this is not the case.  I am quite the opposite; I am a very reasonable guy.  This is my earlier quote.

Communications of all types in the recruit school should be limited to a short window per day.  I say 1-2 hours after supper or your last period; that is usually when our brain is mush anyway.  Special circumstances can be handled on a case by case basis.

This can be simplified down to understanding priorities, which a significant number of young troops don't yet understand.  During the work day and except for significant family issues, if social media is anywhere but the bottom of the list, then priorities have been misplaced.

[Bass ackwards]

It seems to me that this is the world that we built for ourselves. The spoiled, instant-gratification, me-first/me-only world that we've been carefully cultivating since the sixties.
It's probably not the one that most of the readers/posters here wanted -and in fact many probably tried their level best to prevent -but there it is.
It's like an infuriated conservative watching Trudeau/Cretien/Martin being elected (or, for that matter, a no doubt equally infuriated liberal watching Steven Harper being sworn in).
It's not the world you want. For Goddamn sure you knew what the consequences would be -but the majority made that decision for you.

But from what I've seen, somehow, miraculously, some pretty good kids still manage to claw their way up the pipeline.
Not just in the military but in civvie jobs too.

I think the best we can do is cultivate the good ones, try the best we can with the so-so, and let Mr Darwin take the rest.

Just my 
   

[No sea to ruff]

Certainly agree with all  comments that this new directive makes one shake his/her head . But...there you have it "the crux of the biscuit" its been comin' on for a long time. I feel sometimes my hands are tied as to how I raise my son. We all have to pull on the same rope to make it work. Seems to me the young fellers today would rather argue that point or tell me "go to hell old man".

Just sayin'

[ObedientiaZelum]

All

As of now recruits and Officer Cadets WILL be allowed to have access to their personal electronics (Cell phone, Laptop, IPod etc etc) for the entire course.

no longer will they be taken for the first 4 weeks of training and then accessed only on weekends after the 4 week in-doc. Now all candidates will have access to them for the entire course.

The Commandant has taken this step as it was seen to reduce the VR rate by 66% during the trial PL's that were run.

On a personal note many of you will cry havoc at this step (myself included) but he is the CO and thus we follow his directives. Do I like it no, do I agree with it HELL NO but there it is. And people wonder why I am releasing.... 

Edit: Spelling

This is a really bad move.

The fact that banning electronic devices was causing an increased VR rate tells me that the ban is doing it's job.
People these day go to crap if they can't access their cell phones or the internet. We punted a Sgt from tour while overseas because he couldn't disconnect from stupid online dating websites.
NCMs sneaking off to text is a huge problem. future leaders on my leadership course would sit in the back of the class and ignore the class material and text or watch porn and laugh about it.

if a kid is going to cry and want to quit because he can't update facebook for a month then that's not the kind of person we need in the military. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir with this.  I think the Commandant is looking at numbers and not quality, unfortunately.

[MCG]

I have heard that some US Army schools have responded to the problem of an iPhone addicted recruit base by issuing iPhones to everybody on occupation training.
... of course, like every CF issued Blackberry, the techs have disabled all the features that the schools don't want the students using, and the majority of apps are actually e-learning tools (like a US Army Ethic trg app).  Instead of Angry Birds, the games socialize messages of US Army culture.

[Tank Troll]

With postions in the Forces being limited as they are these days you'd think we would want to be more selective. If not having electronic devices makes people quit then I say GOOD it is an other weeding out process. Remember YOU joined the CF we didn't join you! You need to fit to our world and regulations not the other way around.