Author Topic: PT- Running with weight and gasmask  (Read 3740 times)

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Online Macey

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Re: PT- Running with weight and gasmask
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2012, 13:50:14 »
If you were in my town, I would be game as a training buddy.

Offline dangerboy

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Re: PT- Running with weight and gasmask
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2012, 17:01:31 »

I can't imagine CJIRU not doing all kinds of PT with gasmasks on and and bunny suits all done up and my friend did the army run- 5k-  in TOPP high (forget the new term). 


It is Dress State 4 mask worn. TOPP was replaced with MOPP and it is now called Dress State.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: PT- Running with weight and gasmask
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2012, 17:11:26 »
It is Dress State 4 mask worn. TOPP was replaced with MOPP and it is now called Dress State.

Just another case of someone wanting to get a check in a box on his/her PER.  Me; I stick with the old standby: "Raincoats ON/Raincoats OFF" philosophy.  Just tell me what you want, don't confuse me......I am CLC qual.......ummm JLC qual........no......JNCO qual and JNCO CF qual.......NO! ........PLQ qual.........FRIG IT!.... I earned that damn Leaf, I can understand what you want (If you give Clear, Concise Orders).........
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Offline Spectrum

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Re: PT- Running with weight and gasmask
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2012, 20:42:46 »
I didn't dig down that deep, good find Blackadder.

The little device they use in the article, I imagine, would be significantly harder to breathe through that a gas mask.
Pro's and con's to it I guess. 
I can't imagine CJIRU not doing all kinds of PT with gasmasks on and and bunny suits all done up and my friend did the army run- 5k-  in TOPP high (forget the new term). 

The videos on the NZSAS are pretty neat. It sounds like they do a lot of running (and shooting) with the masks on.
Great! You can catch me if I pass out.

Is TOPP High the same thing as MOPP 4? It would be better since at least no one will confuse the call with "Mop floor". EDIT: Disregard, just read the posts above me.  "Dress State" ? Wow, that sounds super.  ::)

I'd like to try mixing some of the New SAR Tech fitness test with CBRN gear, I bet that would be a bag drive.  I just wish I didn't have to worry about getting taken down by the cops while I workout...
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: PT- Running with weight and gasmask
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2012, 21:07:39 »
It is Dress State 4 mask worn. TOPP was replaced with MOPP and it is now called Dress State.

Wait? What? Does that mean we can get rid of LD and bring back the 'Start Line' now too?
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline resolute

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Re: PT- Running with weight and gasmask
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2012, 23:17:50 »
1.  Running with weight.  Joint considerations have been outlined reasonably above.  Do you throw a grenade (or shot put) like you do a baseball?  Obviously not.  Your rotator cuff would be torn to $hit in short order.  Another thing to consider is you don't necessarily want to do something that will significantly alter your form / neuromuscular programming.  You can probably get away with a bit of extra weight, maybe 5 or 10 % BW, and still run at 3/4 speed or sprint.  But too much of a good thing (like running with a giant parachute behind you or doing overspeed training down a very steep hill), and you are now training a fundamentally different movement, and actually messing up your "normal" running form.  To use a more mundane example, consider that when a person has sprained an ankle, they can actually do more long term damage to the (originally) uninjured structures by trying to do "too much / too soon" and then acquiring abnormal compensatory movements (i.e. limping) that may be difficult to shake completely once the ankle has healed.

2.  Running with gas mask on.  First of all, this isn't really like altitude training. 
a) You may be somewhat increasing your "pneumatic resistance" such that the required inspiratory and expiratory pressures are larger (just like in the article quoted).  I was involved (actually, as a guinea pig) in research at DRDC utilizing a device called a "Power Lung" which did this in a measurable way.  There was no translation to real world performance.  The reason for this (I think), is that the lungs are seldom the limiting factor during submaximal or maximal exercise (unless you're a steady smoker with COPD).  There are some exceptions to this (e.g. exercise induced arterial hypoexemia), but generally, it's the cardiac output and the rate of utilisation of oxygen by the working muscles that limit performance.  Improving the capacity of a non-limiting component is useless. 
b) Other than possibly increasing the resistive forces by increasing turbulence / reducing laminar flow, the other probable difference to running with gas masks (vs. without) is that you are increasing "dead space."  This means that you are rebreathing the same air to a greater degree.  I am unfamiliar with the actual volume of the masks, but if you significantly increased dead space, not only would your breathing mixture be hypoxic, it would also be hypercarbic.  This is NOT the same as hypoxic training, which uses a carefully regulated mixture of gas that is hypoxic but NOT hypercarbic.  Again, there are a lot of variables (e.g. the amount of dead space, tightness of the mask on the face, rate of metabolism), but the possibility of unpredictably losing consciousness does exist (just like those jokers who hyperventilate before taking a large breath of air and then trying to swim as far as possible underwater). 
c) Even if it WAS like altitude training, most proponents of altitude training have long ago adopted the "train low / sleep high" philosophy, because the erythropoietic stimulation of hypoxia can be gained by ~ 16 hours of daily exposure while still having optimal intensity of training in a normoxic environment. 
d) The "real world / functional" arguments of the CJIRU-types only applies if you are wearing the rest of your gear.  There were people in KAF doing Army Runs and the like with PT gear and a gas mask.  I'm no SME on CBRN, but I'm not sure what readiness / MOPP state corresponds to spandex shorts + tank top + gas mask. 

Just my $0.02.  Well, probably more like 3 or 4 cents, actually.  Sorry for the length...

 ;)

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: PT- Running with weight and gasmask
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2012, 22:33:00 »
1.  Running with weight.  Joint considerations have been outlined reasonably above.  Do you throw a grenade (or shot put) like you do a baseball?  Obviously not.  Your rotator cuff would be torn to $hit in short order.  Another thing to consider is you don't necessarily want to do something that will significantly alter your form / neuromuscular programming.  You can probably get away with a bit of extra weight, maybe 5 or 10 % BW, and still run at 3/4 speed or sprint.  But too much of a good thing (like running with a giant parachute behind you or doing overspeed training down a very steep hill), and you are now training a fundamentally different movement, and actually messing up your "normal" running form.  To use a more mundane example, consider that when a person has sprained an ankle, they can actually do more long term damage to the (originally) uninjured structures by trying to do "too much / too soon" and then acquiring abnormal compensatory movements (i.e. limping) that may be difficult to shake completely once the ankle has healed.

2.  Running with gas mask on.  First of all, this isn't really like altitude training. 
a) You may be somewhat increasing your "pneumatic resistance" such that the required inspiratory and expiratory pressures are larger (just like in the article quoted).  I was involved (actually, as a guinea pig) in research at DRDC utilizing a device called a "Power Lung" which did this in a measurable way.  There was no translation to real world performance.  The reason for this (I think), is that the lungs are seldom the limiting factor during submaximal or maximal exercise (unless you're a steady smoker with COPD).  There are some exceptions to this (e.g. exercise induced arterial hypoexemia), but generally, it's the cardiac output and the rate of utilisation of oxygen by the working muscles that limit performance.  Improving the capacity of a non-limiting component is useless. 
b) Other than possibly increasing the resistive forces by increasing turbulence / reducing laminar flow, the other probable difference to running with gas masks (vs. without) is that you are increasing "dead space."  This means that you are rebreathing the same air to a greater degree.  I am unfamiliar with the actual volume of the masks, but if you significantly increased dead space, not only would your breathing mixture be hypoxic, it would also be hypercarbic.  This is NOT the same as hypoxic training, which uses a carefully regulated mixture of gas that is hypoxic but NOT hypercarbic.  Again, there are a lot of variables (e.g. the amount of dead space, tightness of the mask on the face, rate of metabolism), but the possibility of unpredictably losing consciousness does exist (just like those jokers who hyperventilate before taking a large breath of air and then trying to swim as far as possible underwater). 
c) Even if it WAS like altitude training, most proponents of altitude training have long ago adopted the "train low / sleep high" philosophy, because the erythropoietic stimulation of hypoxia can be gained by ~ 16 hours of daily exposure while still having optimal intensity of training in a normoxic environment. 
d) The "real world / functional" arguments of the CJIRU-types only applies if you are wearing the rest of your gear.  There were people in KAF doing Army Runs and the like with PT gear and a gas mask.  I'm no SME on CBRN, but I'm not sure what readiness / MOPP state corresponds to spandex shorts + tank top + gas mask. 

Just my $0.02.  Well, probably more like 3 or 4 cents, actually.  Sorry for the length...

 ;)

Wait a minute there, you sound like you actually know what you're talking about. Now how the heck am I going to BS people on this thread? Geez.... no consideration from some people  ;)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline ObedientiaZelum

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Re: PT- Running with weight and gasmask
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2012, 12:35:51 »
Next someone is going to suggest you can't have BMQ students attempt chin-ups with rucksacks on  ::)
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Offline Rider Pride

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Re: PT- Running with weight and gasmask
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2012, 21:21:18 »
Next someone is going to suggest you can't have BMQ students attempt chin-ups with rucksacks on  ::)


there is no issue with that as long as the troop can grip the bar while having the shoulder and elbow joints in the proper physiological and anatomical position before the full load is placed onto the joints.

I had the opportunity to discuss this issue of gas mask tng with a large group of military MOs and PAs. The common consensus is that while there is literature (one of which is mentioned above) shows there is some  small benefit to training with restricted breathing, it should only be done by those who's occupation routinely requires that a breathing apparatus be worn in a life threatening environment where removal of said device would result in harm or death. The thought is that it is only beneficial to train while requiring the small increase in inspiratory stregnth for job perfomance, as once restricted breathing device  training is ceased, the benefits of it are completely lost in 3-6 months. Further, there is no data that shows if there is any long term effects from restriced breathing to the lung tissue itself.

Further, the study was conducted with restricted brathing apparatus, under direct supervision of a medically trainied personnel. This is also the way professional and high perfomance athletes train as well.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 21:24:48 by Rider Pride »
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Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: PT- Running with weight and gasmask
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2012, 22:49:44 »
I have been running with a weighted vest since last july, started with 12lbs, now up to 66lbs.  I find that when I run without the vest my speed and endurance has gone up significantly.  Also learned early on while running with it on, that for at least myself personally, running right a forefoot strike/POSE style stride, significantly reduced/eliminated any pain I felt in my legs/joints, so much so that I run that way now without the vest as well (also because I wear minimalist shoes, that really aren't designed to be run in using heel strike running.).