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Author Topic: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)  (Read 159698 times)

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Offline BulletMagnet

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2006, 16:30:39 »
The point Mr Dorosh is that we could spend time arguing about being more "Royal" or we could spend time actually doing our job.

I for one would much rather do my job then bother with seeing how much money could be flushed down the toilet in a vague attempt to put something back that has already been removed without much consequence. We still have Royal in many places such as Royal Canadian Infantry Corps, Her Majesties Canadian Ship etc etc, why bother with the rest. I mean hey could spend 2 milion dollars on that or we could buy me more bullets and better equipment.

I know the concept of bullets and equipment mean little to you but as Para has pointed out to us that do the job it extremely important.

Can "we walk and chew gun" at the same time, sure we could. But why bother when we can focus on something infinitely more important and with much deeper consequences.
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2006, 16:31:33 »
well, since being brought into the CQMS world a couple years back, then being brought up to BHQ to act as Operations WO, I've become somewhat familiar with the process. And I have come to realize just how much money is pissed away on stupid crap at the expense of warfighters.

Since you insist on sermonizing, I guess I'll reply in kind.

Some of of that is subjective.  I have indeed, though, seen the "Western Challenge Pencils" the Army bought a few years back (they were a scream!) so no one is doubting that priorities aren't always adhered to, nor is anyone arguing that combat capability shouldn't come first. I think the argument here, dead soldiers aside, is that some of that "stupid crap" is unappreciated by soldiers in the field - those pointy-end dudes you presume to speak for - and is in fact necessary in ways that intangible. Just as intangible as, say, the difference between Walmart socks and Gore-tex socks. Can anyone define a "need" for say a better bivvy bag? We won "the big one" without them, after all. It's all a matter of perspective. Anyway, we agree on these points at any rate.

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You odn't details on what I do, or how I do it. When the content and value of our posts are compared, I'm secure that those who count know which to pay attention to.

I'm not sure I understand the first sentence, but think I get the gist of the second one. ;) If your feeling of self-worth is so tied to a message board and the opinions of strangers coupled with a need to cut others down in the process, you have problems. You seem well adjusted so I'll write this off as you simply not having anything else to contribute to the discussion, and thus figure a little ad hominem will do nicely. Given the sheer volume of our posts I'm equally confident we've both contributed to this board in a myriad of positive ways and probably ruffled a lot of feathers in the process, given our similar posting style. I'm not keeping track, though. If you really want to compare, go back 5 years - but check the History forum cause that's where my best work is done. ;)

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not quite. The difference is that you make it a habit. We can go back through my posts and find any number of times when I've been corrected, and have owned up to it.

I don't doubt it; I apologize for suggesting otherwise.

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and my point is that one second, or one penny wasted on this pathetic, surface-over-substance, appearance-over-functionality silliness is one second and one penny better spent elsewhere. Gara-trooper mentality has no place in our military today. We have to re-build a cash-strapped, under-manned, poorly-equipped force, currently at war. It is the height of stupidity to bother with inconsequentials like this under those circumstances.

I disagree; I think Neil said it best when he said we can walk and chew gum at the same time.  You still haven't presented anything other than a visceral reaction to that suggestion.

Quote
to you, perhaps. But, to those with time at the pointy-end, I'm confident that it's ringing loudly. And, since our highest leadership has significant time there, I highly doubt that this issue will surface until well after the threat we face has been dealt with and the Chairborne are once more in positions of authority. Then we can disband the CSOR and spend money on make-work projects like the LSVW, Garrison Dress, and changing names again. Until then, the testosterone-challenged will simply have to bide their time. Soon enough, the warriors will work themselves out of a job again.

if this was a thread about how to kill someone with a toothpick, your response here might bear some intellectual fruit. The constant assertion that those not serving in the combat arms are somehow "testosterone challenged" are firstly, insulting, second, unbecoming of you personally, thirdly, untrue, and fourthly, off-topic.

You mention the CSOR in the same thread as bemoaning name changes and administrative bumph infringing on combat capability, yet they represent a major reorganization in and of themselves.

Anyway, the suggestion has been made that if we did want to change a name or two, it would not harm our combat capability and your suggestion that it would is unproven. I don't think that warrants attacks on either my trade or anyone personally.

So why not use some of that intelligence you regularly display and either respond with something a bit more substantial, or stop trying to overpower the thread based solely on the trades badge you wear?
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2006, 16:33:25 »
The point Mr Dorosh is that we could spend time arguing about being more "Royal" or we could spend time actually doing our job.

I'm aware of the point, Mr. Miss, and think I effectively covered your points in my last reply to Paracowboy. If I've missed something out, please accept my apologies in advance, and I'll try and address it in detail for you.
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Offline BulletMagnet

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2006, 16:43:00 »
I disagree I think it's you who is missing the point.

Which I will reiterate again, money wasted on being more "Royal" is simply that WASTED! it's how many less bullets for us in theater? how many less rounds for the M777? how many less CH47D frames we can purchase? why bother with wasting that money and it is well and truly a waste, when we have higher more important priorities.

I agree 100% with Para, there is little to no room for the Garrison mentality that has so permeated the CF for the last decade or so, as to make us almost Combat ineffective. Thankfully due in no small part to the the back bone of the combat arms trade and our sheer ability to carry on despite the garrison attitude being shoved at us, that we did maintain some form of combat capability.

As to your argument for CSOR not only is it a capability we lacked it is also dollars spent on just what we need more pointy end troops doing the nasty work that others would not do.
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2006, 16:54:46 »
I disagree I think it's you who is missing the point.

Which I will reiterate again, money wasted on being more "Royal" is simply that WASTED! it's how many less bullets for us in theater? how many less rounds for the M777? how many less CH47D frames we can purchase? why bother with wasting that money and it is well and truly a waste, when we have higher more important priorities.

I agree 100% with Para, there is little to no room for the Garrison mentality that has so permeated the CF for the last decade or so, as to make us almost Combat ineffective. Thankfully due in no small part to the the back bone of the combat arms trade and our sheer ability to carry on despite the garrison attitude being shoved at us, that we did maintain some form of combat capability.

As to your argument for CSOR not only is it a capability we lacked it is also dollars spent on just what we need more pointy end troops doing the nasty work that others would not do.

First of all, I appreciate your point of view and agree that combat capability is the most important priority.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that the name change to "Royal" is unecessary - I don't think we need the change either. I'm saying we could do it if we wanted to.

Given your outlook, why have cap badges? All that brass could be better used in shell casings, couldn't it?

Why have PT equipment? Properly motivated troops should keep themselves fit.

The fact is - and I don't blame you for not realizing this - is the money comes out of different pots. Different budgets are used for different things. You can't spend your PT grant on bayonets. Right?

All that is being said is that the argument that a name change hampers operational readiness is weak. There are soldiers (testosteronally challenged, I think, is the term) that are paid to worry about such matters.

No one doubts the CSOR was necessary. How much did those tan berets cost? If you're going to make the argument, go all the way with it. You can argue the tan beret is a necessary "intangible" contributing to combat capability. I'd even be inclined to believe you. One might argue the same about name changes.
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Offline N. McKay

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2006, 16:59:46 »
The point Mr Dorosh is that we could spend time arguing about being more "Royal" or we could spend time actually doing our job.

Not to sound like too much of a jerk, but which are you doing when you post in this thread?  If you have time to discuss this, surely those in the Forces whose jobs include issues like identity and unit naming (and who are not at the pointy end) could manage the required time.  In fact, we have a whole directorate to look after issues of history and heritage.

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I mean hey could spend 2 milion dollars on that or we could buy me more bullets and better equipment.

It isn't an either/or situation, no matter how many times anyone says it is.  Budgeting for any government department is much more complicated than that.  DHH doesn't buy the bullets.  I can virtually guarantee that no soldier is going to run out of ammunition because someone changed the names of two commands.  (Didn't happen last time, did it?)

Quote
Can "we walk and chew gun" at the same time, sure we could. But why bother when we can focus on something infinitely more important and with much deeper consequences.

DND is an enormous organization, one of the biggest departments in the Canadian government.  If NDHQ consisted of only one soldier whose job was to buy bullets, and we said to him "please lay off buying bullets for a few weeks and order some stationery and signs instead", I'd be with you all the way.  But that's just not the way it works.

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Which I will reiterate again, money wasted on being more "Royal" is simply that WASTED! it's how many less bullets for us in theater? how many less rounds for the M777? how many less CH47D frames we can purchase?

Until you can answer those questions you're not arguing from a very strong position.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 17:04:15 by Neill McKay »

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2006, 17:07:33 »
The fact is - and I don't blame you for not realizing this - is the money comes out of different pots. Different budgets are used for different things. You can't spend your PT grant on bayonets. Right?

This infers that there is a dedicated "pot" of money waiting for a name change (or other such administration) to occur, which, if it does not occur, cannot be reassigned. This would be a false assumption. 

The question, if a price is to be paid for a name change out of DND funding, is: Which previously allocated pot of money (and manhours) does it come from?  What allocated resources, funded IAW the current business plan, are to be redirected for this effort, however minor a piece of staff work it may appear to be on the surface, to be executed?

Even the cost of something as "simple" as repainting base, unit and installation signage has a real value. We can be confident that most Comds/CPOs/etc. would not wait until their sign is due for regular replacement before making the change.  Where does the money come from for such an "intangible" change; one which only seems to have a few internet denizens banging drums in favour of anyway?

It's a real piece of work (the name change), and real resources, no matter how thinly spread across the administrative staff, would have to be expended.

We seem to have a habit in these forums of alternately bashing the system for wastage, and then bashing the system for not pandering to our individually favourite little projects.

Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2006, 17:21:42 »
This infers that there is a dedicated "pot" of money waiting for a name change (or other such administration) to occur, which, if it does not occur, cannot be reassigned. This would be a false assumption. 

The question, if a price is to be paid for a name change out of DND funding, is: Which previously allocated pot of money (and manhours) does it come from?  What allocated resources, funded IAW the current business plan, are to be redirected for this effort, however minor a piece of staff work it may appear to be on the surface, to be executed?.

Where to get the money from? 

*DHH could stop publishing full blown books on 'blacks in the Canadian Forces' or "women in the Canadian Forces' and distributing them for free in published form. Not that I don't appreciate the books, but surely they could be sold for profit rather than just scattered willy nilly through armouries and bases.

*Stop making cap badges no one wears. The Highlanders wear a bronze cap badge, always have, yet the DND issue is gold. We let recruits wear them. But even worse, the DND issued oak leaf shoulder title is not worn by anyone, yet recruits still get the "official" pattern from the ASC and then get told in the unit not to wear them. Don't the Seaforths also purchase badges out of regimental funds because the DND issue is incorrect?

Just two suggestions...
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2006, 17:24:45 »

Thank you for your succint proof of this point.

We seem to have a habit in these forums of alternately bashing the system for wastage, and then bashing the system for not pandering to our individually favourite little projects.

Offline BulletMagnet

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2006, 17:26:18 »
Seem's MO has answered for me and with more style then I could have mustered.

Not to sound like too much of a jerk, but which are you doing when you post in this thread?

I'm on predeployment leave actually, but thanks for insinuating I don't do my job.
  
If you have time to discuss this, surely those in the Forces whose jobs include issues like identity and unit naming (and who are not at the pointy end) could manage the required time.  In fact, we have a whole directorate to look after issues of history and heritage.

A whole directorate that is a waste of DND time and resources, should be part of Heritage Canada and play in their coffers.

It isn't an either/or situation, no matter how many times anyone says it is.  Budgeting for any government department is much more complicated than that.  DHH doesn't buy the bullets.  I can virtually guarantee that no soldier is going to run out of ammunition because someone changed the names of two commands.  (Didn't happen last time, did it?)

On the contrary happens all the time, you see when we split up our money into separate pots as we do that means less money actually does go from bullets and training. Which means that I have indeed run out of bullets on more then one occasion, In a combat zone no but then again we also didn't have the rounds to keep our skills up in said combat zone.

Until you can answer those questions you're not arguing from a very strong position.

Alright well since we don't know how much this would cost I'll go with my made up figure of 2 Mil.  9 cents or so a round (I could be off on cost of rounds BTW) gives me 2.22 milion rounds. 100k a pop for M777 ( the GPS guided ones) rounds gives me 20 rounds. Oh and 2 CH47D airframes well 1. something or other to be exact.

My case any stronger yet? And I to be honest I'm arguing form experience how about you?
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2006, 17:32:15 »
Thank you for your succint proof of this point.


Now, now, Michael - you have to believe we have been expecting a possible changeover from the Queen's Crown to a King's Crown (which may or may not happen on the ascension of the next Monarch) since 1954 or so - where would that money come from?

Where did the money come from for reserve brigade badges and the change in names that happened there?  It got budgeted for. What got cut? I don't know, you can tell us, I suppose. You don't even have to give your opinion of what it was that got cut.

I'm just saying - there are always ways to find efficiencies. We did away with pipe bands once - ruined the trade, but saved a lot of bucks. Was the pointy end happy with that? How was recruiting effected? Was the cost savings worth it?  Who knows.
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #61 on: July 05, 2006, 17:40:51 »
What do we need a "Royal" for; we don't even need a "Navy" in the traditional sense.  Further movement towards Joint Warfighting capability will hopefully see the complete removal of units from service based commands and put into functional/geographic ones as we are starting to see with the Regional JTFs.  A "Royal Canadian Navy" would be (rightly so) nothing but a fashion office in NDHQ.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #62 on: July 05, 2006, 17:42:32 »
A whole directorate that is a waste of DND time and resources, should be part of Heritage Canada and play in their coffers.


Neil McKay, HitorMiss, Michael Dorosh, and many of you others..

Hate to burst your little bubble of knowledge, but that directorate, known as Directorate of History and Heritage, is like every other DND and Government Department in Canada.  They have people holding down one job title, but filling the tasks and responsibilities of ten.  Tell me how you can cut any more money there.  Tell me how you can task them with yet another task.  Tell me how you can plan on making this system more efficient and then tell me where all this money to do so is going to come from.
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #63 on: July 05, 2006, 17:44:25 »
Now, now, Michael - you have to believe we have been expecting a possible changeover from the Queen's Crown to a King's Crown (which may or may not happen on the ascension of the next Monarch) since 1954 or so - where would that money come from?

Where did the money come from for reserve brigade badges and the change in names that happened there?  It got budgeted for. What got cut? I don't know, you can tell us, I suppose. You don't even have to give your opinion of what it was that got cut.

I'm just saying - there are always ways to find efficiencies. We did away with pipe bands once - ruined the trade, but saved a lot of bucks. Was the pointy end happy with that? How was recruiting effected? Was the cost savings worth it?  Who knows.

Changes of crowns are a red herring playing on those who haven't researched the issue.

There is no such need for a change of crowns, the designations of "Queen's" and "King's" crowns are common-use labels which in no way are definitive and binding expressions of the gender of the sovereign.  Properly, as you know, they are the Tudor Crown and the Imperial (or alternatively in use, the St Edward's) Crown.

The point is, as I am sure you realize, that changes such as the Brigade names came with organizational changes meant to improve the command environment - which I would hope it did to some degee across the country (regardless of what some think of any higher headquarters than the office they work in).  I haven't heard anyone suggesting we roll the clock back to the Militia Area period.

What principal organizational change would entail altering every related document, every sign, every website, etc., etc., etc., just to add the "Royal" moniker again?  It would take that type of establishment change requirement to make the change comparable to the situations in which we 'relabeled' the Reserve Brigades, or CEFCOM/CANCOM/CANSOFCOM, etc.


Offline BulletMagnet

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #64 on: July 05, 2006, 17:45:02 »
Well at the very least it's one less job for the man tasked with 10.

And of course kill a whole Directorate and the money does have to go somewhere else doesn't it?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 17:49:37 by HitorMiss »
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Offline GAP

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #65 on: July 05, 2006, 17:52:07 »
And of course kill a whole Directorate and the money does have to go somewhere else doesn't it?

Actually, most government departments operate on the principle "if you don't use it, you lose it"
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #66 on: July 05, 2006, 17:57:35 »
Changes of crowns are a red herring playing on those who haven't researched the issue.

There is no such need for a change of crowns, the designations of "Queen's" and "King's" crowns are common-use labels which in no way are definitive and binding expressions of the gender of the sovereign.  Properly, as you know, they are the Tudor Crown and the Imperial (or alternatively in use, the St Edward's) Crown.

That's exacly what I implied...

Quote
The point is, as I am sure you realize, that changes such as the Brigade names came with organizational changes meant to improve the command environment - which I would hope it did to some degee across the country (regardless of what some think of any higher headquarters than the office they work in).  I haven't heard anyone suggesting we roll the clock back to the Militia Area period.

So why did all the badges change in 1953 then? You don't know that it wouldn't happen again, do you? I suspect your research into that is as extensive as mine - ie no one knows for sure. We changed again in 1968-70 due to operational and command changes.  If someone thought that additional changes were necessary, we'd find the money to do it again - which is my point. The precise name is the red herring.

Quote
What principal organizational change would entail altering every related document, every sign, every website, etc., etc., etc., just to add the "Royal" moniker again?  It would take that type of establishment change requirement to make the change comparable to the situations in which we 'relabeled' the Reserve Brigades, or CEFCOM/CANCOM/CANSOFCOM, etc.

Red herring. My point was, and is, if we thought it desirable, we could do it without impacting operational effectiveness. Unless you can point out inefficiencies which derived directly from changing our badges in 1953, changing our command structure in 1964 (the date CFHQ was created?) or 1968?

I'll put it another way - if the only reason NOT to do it is because we'll have less bullets and beans, that hasn't been demonstrated to have been the case in the past.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #67 on: July 05, 2006, 18:00:32 »
Where to get the money from? 

*DHH could stop publishing full blown books on 'blacks in the Canadian Forces' or "women in the Canadian Forces' and distributing them for free in published form. Not that I don't appreciate the books, but surely they could be sold for profit rather than just scattered willy nilly through armouries and bases.

*Stop making cap badges no one wears. The Highlanders wear a bronze cap badge, always have, yet the DND issue is gold. We let recruits wear them. But even worse, the DND issued oak leaf shoulder title is not worn by anyone, yet recruits still get the "official" pattern from the ASC and then get told in the unit not to wear them. Don't the Seaforths also purchase badges out of regimental funds because the DND issue is incorrect?

Just two suggestions...

So are you for or against the promulgation of our Military History or not?  These people are trying their best to increase the knowledge of those in the Forces and on Civie Street.  Now you want them to drop all that.  Seems a bit back asswards to me.  

The Supply System is expected to to have every Hat Badge in inventory to issue to CF members.  If those members prefer to buy a better quality badge or accoutrement, it is their freedom to do so at their own expense.

So what is your point?
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #68 on: July 05, 2006, 18:01:18 »
My point was, and is, if we thought it desirable, we could do it without impacting operational effectiveness.

Can we be sure about that, we are certainly participating in an operational environment that wasn't there during any of the noted changes to badges, names, etc.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #69 on: July 05, 2006, 18:02:18 »
Leave me out of it...I've seen first hand how civilians run things at military museums...

Yes,  I understand you were one.

Besides the point I was making was your ideas of where the money should come from for your pet projects.........at the sacrifice of others already in process. 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 18:06:42 by George Wallace »
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #70 on: July 05, 2006, 18:07:30 »
So are you for or against the promulgation of our Military History or not.  These people are trying their best to increase the knowledge of those in the Forces and on Civie Street.  Now you want them to drop all that.  Seems a bit back asswards to me.  

The Supply System is expected to to have every Hat Badge in inventory to issue to CF members.  If those members prefer to buy a better quality badge or accoutrement, it is their freedom to do so at their own expense.

So what is your point?

a)It's been a mixed bag.  I think the private sector has done a great job of documenting our history - I'd take a Donald Graves book over most recent DND ones any day. I don't mean to belittle their contributions, but it seems like lately they write for special interest groups rather than the CF as a whole. It may be a mis-formed impression and I don't claim to be privy to a lot of what they've done, though I do visit their site often. The online CMHQ reports are awesome, for example. Look at, say, the boondoggle that was the First World War official history. Stacey had things working much more smoothly and the Second World War histories were great. So was the Korean War one. Lately - I don't know, some pubs seem to be form and not substance. What is your opinion? We agree that the history needs to be documented, but I can't say with certainty who should be doing it.  The best people for the job, naturally, but who is that?

b) The supply system is wasting money stocking some stuff that no one uses. It is not up to members, it is regimental standards that have units buying better stuff, then issuing it in lieu of DND materials.  It's not a freedom, it's frustration at not getting the 'correct' stuff established by regimental tradition out of a hidebound supply system - from my perspective, anyway. In our case, the DND oakleaf is way too small and not at all like the established pattern worn since 1938. So we pay for the "correct" pattern and the ASC stocks the "small" ones anyway.

I hope that's clearer?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 18:12:20 by Michael Dorosh »
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #71 on: July 05, 2006, 18:08:53 »
Can we be sure about that, we are certainly participating in an operational environment that wasn't there during any of the noted changes to badges, names, etc.


NOOOOO we're NOT sure, Michael - that is why we are discussing it!!  ;D And hoping to do so without visceral gut reactions, mine, yours, and everyone's! I suspect we have failed miserably.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #72 on: July 05, 2006, 18:16:46 »
b) The supply system is wasting money stocking some stuff that no one uses. It is not up to members, it is regimental standards that have units buying better stuff, then issuing it in lieu of DND materials.  It's not a freedom, it's frustration at not getting the 'correct' stuff established by regimental tradition out of a hidebound supply system - from my perspective, anyway.

I hope that's clearer?

Sorry.  A Regiment can 'highly suggest' that a member buy a certain item, but it is 'Unlawful' for them to 'dictate' that a member buy non-issue accoutrements.  It is 'not illegal' to wear the CF issued item.  If you do get in sh** from a senior member of the Regiment for doing so, you can of course Redress it and win.  If the CF issues it, it is authorized.  That being said, not too many people do this, as they usually have more pride in themselves, their uniform and their Regiment and do go and purchase, out of their own pockets, the better Regimental accoutrement's and support their Regimental Kit Shops and Regimental Funds.

Does that clear it up for you?
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Offline paracowboy

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #73 on: July 05, 2006, 18:52:18 »
your attempts to invalidate my points would be amusing if they weren't so sad. I particularly like you constant use of the word "visceral" as though you are gazing down placidly from some intellectual height. Nice try. Unfortunately, one of the definitions for visceral is "profound". It's one of those words like "cleave" that has two meanings, both of which are seemingly the antithesis of each other.

No matter how finely you choose to cut it, the CF receives "x" amount of dollars every year. That then gets divided up. Much of it goes to stupid, pointless crap (ie non-operational. If it ain't related to training, actual fighting, and to supporting the above in some way, it's wasted). That could, and should, be shunted into the coffers related to practical purposes.
...time to cull the herd.

Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: "Royalizing" Canada's Navy, Army & Air Force Names (merged)
« Reply #74 on: July 05, 2006, 19:02:14 »
Sorry.  A Regiment can 'highly suggest' that a member buy a certain item, but it is 'Unlawful' for them to 'dictate' that a member buy non-issue accoutrements.  It is 'not illegal' to wear the CF issued item.  If you do get in sh** from a senior member of the Regiment for doing so, you can of course Redress it and win.  If the CF issues it, it is authorized.  That being said, not too many people do this, as they usually have more pride in themselves, their uniform and their Regiment and do go and purchase, out of their own pockets, the better Regimental accoutrement's and support their Regimental Kit Shops and Regimental Funds.

Does that clear it up for you?

You're still confused, George. The members pay for nothing. The regiment pays for the correct badges out of NPF and then issues them out on loan cards. The badges break often, however, and so the wastage is high.

Anyway, you brought up the point about how well DHH does its job and the subject of quality of their pubs. I asked your opinion, was wondering if you'd share it? Like I said, I'm on the fence on it.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 19:09:02 by Michael Dorosh »
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