Topic: The current navy uniform

[Ex-Dragoon]

*shudder* west coast *shudder*

[Dolphin_Hunter]

The NCD's are working clothes, sure they shouldn't be wrinkled up, but ironing them just too look professional?  The navy has the salt pepper rig to look professional, and the NCD's to work in.  There is no need for creases to be pressed while alongside, unless you are an instructor at the school, but for the guys working on board ship a crease should be the least of their worries.  Just keep it wrinkle free.

I seriously think that the main reason behind the Navy not getting rid of the NCD and going with coveralls is the fact that the coveralls don't hold a good crease.   

[axeman]

So what you guys are saying is that the small line running down each sleeve and in  front and back of each pant leg  makes you look like you know whats going on and that you know your job? I keep hearing that the navy is the most forward looking of the 3 arms of service,yet we are still hanging onto old style traditions because they are tradions . That is a contradiction between statements and action. It is time for the NCD's to be replaced in my opinion maybe a split in the ranks as a coverall in the U.S. Coast Guard style with the belt and a better fit then the current coveralls that we HT's and firefighters wear for when we are onboard, and wearing of standard COMBATS [CADPAT style] for when we are not onboard. I can hear the moaning start already about it but the uniform is already in servive and is accepted throught the CF as a standard for garrison dress. Why cant we catch up the the rest of the forces instead of trying to be the self autonomous arm,where we will force everyone else to accept what we are doing ?


 

[sledge]

That's easy because we are the NAVY not the flipping army or air force and should look like sailors not soldiers. get it Through your head that the navy has traditions that date back to the Royal Navy.  To paraphrase Admiral Cunningham. It takes hundreds of years to build up a tradition and a day to destroy them. SO keep your bloody army gear with the army  or have the guys in the field start wearing square rig. Otherwise please f*** off with the putting sailors in army crap.

[Dolphin_Hunter]

No one is putting sailors in CADPAT (yet). 

If you want to look like a sailor bring back the square rig (big fan here, but I don't have to wear it, for the record I would).

Didn't the USN adopt some sort of Naval Cadpat for shore based sailors?

[M Feetham]

All right fellas, this is supposed to be a nice adult converstion, we don't need to tell anyone off. The reason I say that the uniform should be ironed is that it is authorized for wear to and from work. If guys are going to wear NCD's in public then in my opinion it should be pressed, clean and stain free. Boots should at the very least be well blackened. The new boots aren't supposed to have regular Kiwi polish put on them, they have the paste. It doesn't matter what element you are with, if you are unable to present and crisp, clean, professional military appearance then every person who has a hate on for the milirary is just given one more reason to complain. If members do not take enough pride in themselves, their  uniform and their commitment to serve,  they can always get out. I have lots of copies of the request for voluntary release here in my office, Get me their emails and I will send them a copy. PRIDE and DEDICATION folks they are the cornerstones of service Army, Air Force or Navy, it makes no difference.
Feet

[axeman]

No one is putting sailors in CADPAT (yet). 

If you want to look like a sailor bring back the square rig (big fan here, but I don't have to wear it, for the record I would).

Didn't the USN adopt some sort of Naval Cadpat for shore based sailors?

 yes they have its the standard cam pattern for the US forces for persons not afloat . . as to tradition .... the navy simply says its the senoir service but theres always been 2 guys willing to poke each other in the eye with a pointed stick before  there was a need to float a guy to poke the other  with said stick.. the icon is PPCLI  after many years with them  i"m in the navy now so I know what im talking about .... I'm just saying in a none-navy enviroment ie garrison have all members of the CF in one uniform until they are on parade make things easier on the stores system to get us on the pointy end what we need rather then worring about more crap  ... as to the NAVY claiming to be based on tradition WHERES ME DAILY GROG   

[N. McKay]

wearing of standard COMBATS [CADPAT style] for when we are not onboard. I can hear the moaning start already about it but the uniform is already in servive and is accepted throught the CF as a standard for garrison dress. Why cant we catch up the the rest of the forces instead of trying to be the self autonomous arm,where we will force everyone else to accept what we are doing ?

If you spend some time reading Canadian naval history from the period of about 1965-1985 you'll understand, in all its gory detail, why dressing sailors in green is a bad idea.

[axeman]

Yea i know all about the combined arms uniform fiasco. I'm not trying to sweep the navy into the army and airforce im just simply saying is the current CF NCD uniform is lacking .Members of all trades I know of currently moan and groan about it and nothing gets done about it on the sake of TRADITION. Well I know of lots of traditions that have been phased out of the navy ,air force and army . Isnt it time that the navy catches up with reality and design and issue a naval style of dress that works for the sailor instead of fighting them? All I want is a uniform that i can work in without the major drama that happens with the current NCD uniform . This uniform that we''ve been issued has been around for a long time ,long enough that it's shortcomings has been noted and could stand to be worked on . As to putting sailors in the cadpat yea maybe its not the greatest of ideas as some one may mix them up with a SOLDIER.. But it would put them in a uniform that doent make a mess of itself after 15 minutes of real work . This is simply an opinion and should be treated as such .  Hey after how many years we are finally getting Leopard 2 tanks ?

[Dolphin_Hunter]

This uniform that we''ve been issued has been around for a long time ,long enough that it's shortcomings has been noted and could stand to be worked on .

The Current NCD uniform has been around since 99.  The way things seem to be going we can expect a new naval work dress sometime in 2031 when they retire the last Felex CPF.

[jollyjacktar]

Axeman, I'm an HT.  If I wanted to look like a Soldier, I would have stayed in that direction.  A Sailor should look like a Sailor, an Airman(woman) should look like an Airman(woman), and a Soldier should look like a Soldier.  Right now, I am in the sandbox.  While in the Army's playground I will dress like the other kids as is fitting for all the various reasons.  As for drama with NCD's I honestly have not seen any that was unreasonable.

[nerdgirl]

Is the baseball cap optional? I think a black beret looks a lot better!

[kratz]

Your unit's ball cap is authorized for wear in operational settings, ie: on board, or within dockyard. It is not approved as walking out dress. You will need your beret or peak cap anyhow. Your divisional system will assist in answering these questions once you are posted in and issued a ball cap.

[Radar114]

Actually you can expect the "new" NCDs whenever they run out of your size.  Went to trade in my jacket yesterday and since they still have my size in the last style, I get that. 

So my jackets lasted 3-4 years before they have to go in....3 years left till pension.....1 jacket just replaced....hmmmmm

Doesn't matter.

[hamiltongs]

An unexpected (and not bad) proposal from today's Globe & Mail editorial. I can only surmise that there must be a former naval officer on their editorial staff; I can't imagine who else would have given this a second thought (let alone a first one):

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/editorials/the-canadian-navy-a-tradition-to-restore/article1231223/

The Canadian Navy: A tradition to restore

Globe & Mail, 25 July 2009
Editorial

In 2010, Canada's Navy will mark its centennial. Consideration is under way as to how to honour the service and sacrifice of that branch of the military. There will certainly be parades, fleet reviews and other ceremonies. There should be forward-looking announcements on construction of joint support ships and replacement of Canada's fleet of destroyers. But the government should also yield to pressure from its naval officers and restore some naval traditions thrown overboard during the 1960s. The Minister of National Defence, Peter MacKay, for example, could use the occasion to reinstate the executive curl to the service dress of Canadian naval officers.

The distinctive loop on the upper stripe of naval officers uniforms means little to most Canadians, but it means a great deal to many of those who currently serve as officers in the Navy, and to those who previously wore the executive curl for decades in the service of their country. Its origins can be traced to 1856 when it was introduced by the Royal Navy. It was worn by officers from the early days of Canada's Navy, and most notably, during the Battle of the Atlantic, when the Royal Canadian Navy and RCNVR (together with the merchant navy and Royal Canadian Air Force) played a pivotal role in the defeat of Nazi Germany.

When Canada underwent military unification in 1968, the Navy's executive curl was lost along with all the other distinctive elements of the naval uniform. While it was later restored to naval officer's mess dress, the service uniforms were unchanged. As a result, the rank stripes on uniforms of Canada's naval officers today are the same as, say, those found on the uniform of the officers on a cruise ship. In contrast, most NATO navies use some form of the executive curl for their officer rank insignia, as do the navies of Commonwealth countries, such as India. It would surely serve to build morale, and pay tribute to past sacrifice, were Mr. MacKay to yield to the wishes of many naval officers past and present and restore this small embellishment to naval uniforms. But not, of course, as a substitute for joint support ships and destroyers.

[N. McKay]

As a result, the rank stripes on uniforms of Canada's naval officers today are the same as, say, those found on the uniform of the officers on a cruise ship.

Ironically, even some cruise ship (and other merchant marine) officers have a variation on the executive curl in the shape of a diamond, either above their stripes or in the middle.

[E.R. Campbell]

There is one factor to keep in mind: one of the drivers for the “jolly green jumper” experiment was to make us much more distinctively Canadian which equated to making us much less British in appearance. While I know that many other navies use the “executive curl” it might still be seen as a British affectation.

Secondly, I well remember, back in the ‘60s, that the main complaint (second only to suit colour) amongst naval people was not the curl, it was the cap badge or, more pointedly, the profusion of cap badges. Most naval people – and a good many air force people, too – wanted everyone in a common cap badge with some other ways to mark branch identity.

One suggestion for officers, floated by a staff college mate of mine, was:

•   Executive curl for MARS and MARE;

•   Purple background colour for MARE;

•   Common naval cap badge; and

•   Branch badges above the stripes for MED, LOG and so on. 

It seemed a reasonable approach to me, but my mate, who reached very high rank, apparently was never able or never bothered to press the idea. Perhaps the internal politics of uniforms is still too intense.

[North Star]

Ah uniforms...a minefield of meaning and perception.

I believe most politicians, Liberal/Conservative, view Unification as a mistake for multiple reasons.

I think the solution is ultimately to go back to uniforms that tie the CF to its history. The Navy and Air Force DEU are pretty good attempts at that regard. Reintroducing an executive curl and supporters curls would be a finishing touch on a relatively successful effort to rebuild the Navy after the gree decades. Similarly, the Air Force could move to making their rank insignia closer to the RCAF's.

As for the Army, I personally think it's time to move away from our current DEU (which appears to be directly descended from the unification uniform with a few minor changes) to something reflecting the Service Dress of the Canadian Army. Furthermore, with the tan uniform gone, Army DEU is terrible in the summer. A Khaki version may look to "British" for a small group, but just because the British found a good colour for their Service Dress shouldn't disqualify it from our use.

[E.R. Campbell]

Yes, indeed, uniforms are an easy topic to chew over.

My guess is that you will not find much support, in the Army, for either the expense or angst that a “new” (old) service dress uniform would generate.

Some, maybe even most soldiers might want some minor ”edits” to the current uniform but I have never heard any grumbling at the bar of the mess I frequent. I’m also not sure that there is any consensus on what minor, low cost changes might be welcome. Another guess is that there would be very little objection to the “executive curl” in the Navy but I’m not sure there is any item on which many soldiers might agree. I have no sense that the Air Force wants to revert to the old, subdued colour badges. Personally I think the blue and gold looks fine, but what do I know?

The ”Coates of many colours” project, as we called the current DEUs issued when Bob Coates was MND, cost a few tens of millions – money many thought could have been better spent elsewhere. That doesn’t means that we were not happy to see our navy and air force friends in more “familiar” uniforms, just that money was tight. When is money not tight?
 

[North Star]

Lol..you nailed it right there...when is spending any money on clothing worthwhile, except for operational clothing?

If changes to DEU are to take place, it should happen slowly over a period of years to minimize costs.

[FSTO]

Change I would like to see on the Navy Officers uniform:
8 buttons instead of 6 (C&PO's and the rates stay at 6)
Executive Curl
Navy Operations Badge on all peak caps and berets

Honestly how much would it cost to tailor 2 extra holes on the tunic, and make the curl. I watched the tailor in Esquimalt make me executive curl shoulder boards in about 15 minutes. 

[Chief Stoker]

Change I would like to see on the Navy Officers uniform:
8 buttons instead of 6 (C&PO's and the rates stay at 6)
Executive Curl
Navy Operations Badge on all peak caps.

Honestly how much would it cost to tailor 2 extra holes on the tunic, and make the curl. I watched the tailor in Esquimalt make me executive curl shoulder boards in about 15 minutes.

I had a look at the new NCD's, they are slowly making it into the system. The new pants and jacket are OK, the pants have a lot of extra pockets which are nice and have sewn in creases. The jacket looks ok, except for the Canada flag on the shoulder which seems out of place. Hopefully the new NAVY/MARINE name tags won't come out, they look way too flashy.

As per the executive curl, it would be nice to bring it in, however with the shortage of money the navy is facing and with the ecomony the way it is, I think the money would be better spent elsewhere. If money is to spent, I would rather see it spent on the NCM's not the officers.

My 2 cents.

[Sailorwest]

As per the executive curl, it would be nice to bring it in, however with the shortage of money the navy is facing and with the economy the way it is, I think the money would be better spent elsewhere. If money is to spent, I would rather see it spent on the NCM's not the officers.

My 2 cents.
[/=quote]
On what would you prefer money spent for NCM's vs. officers and why? We have moved very far in the direction of 'rank has no privilege' so I guess I don't understand understand why a modification of the uniform to have appropriate representation of history and culture to instill greater pride in the service would be so troubling.

[Radar114]

Then the ballcap was approved for anyplace that NCDs are approved for wear.

[MedTech]

Honestly? We as a service needs to quit thinking about things that make us look pretty, and more into things that makes us more efficient and comfortable for work.

Current NCDs = FAIL

I don't believe that everyone should be in NavOp capbadge. Specialist/Support trades i.e. Med/Int/Log/MP/JAG etc does not belong to the Navy they are 'purple' and should wear Branch insignia.
The only people that should be in NavOp badges are already in them the MARS and the MARE.