Topic: Pers Tempo, military life expectations, and the DART deployment

[my love my life]

Now that the DART team has left Canada with no idea of when they will return home, Does anyone know if any deployed DART members were scheduled to go on a tour next month?  Are there many who deployed who have only recently returned from a tour?

To me, this emergency is another example of how ill prepared we are to deal with such events.  Many find it totally embarrassing that we have to depend on other countries for transportation.  But what is of more concern to me is the families left behind.  The uncertainty of how long their partners will be gone is always hard to deal with but if families have been still in the process of reuniting as a family after a tour, this adds much stress to families already overwhelmed with too many separations of too long a duration in too short a time.   

When will Ottawa wake up to the fact that our families are hurting or do they even care?    Cheers, Dianne

[bossi]

...  Does anyone know if any deployed DART members were scheduled to go on a tour next month?   Are there many who deployed who have only recently returned from a tour?

To me, this emergency is another example of how ill prepared we are to deal with such events.   Many find it totally embarrassing that we have to depend on other countries for transportation.   But what is of more concern to me is the families left behind.   The uncertainty of how long their partners will be gone is always hard to deal with but if families have been still in the process of reuniting as a family after a tour, this adds much stress to families already overwhelmed with too many separations of too long a duration in too short a time.     

When will Ottawa wake up to the fact that our families are hurting or do they even care?      Cheers, Dianne

As far as I know, no - nobody presently deployed with the DART was scheduled to deploy to Afghanistan in February.
And, I've spotted a friend of mine in TV news coverage from Sri Lanka on CBC NewsWorld - he was in Kabul at the same time as me.

But what is of more concern to me is the families left behind.  The uncertainty of how long their partners will be gone is always hard to deal with but if families have been still in the process of reuniting as a family after a tour, this adds much stress to families already overwhelmed with too many separations of too long a duration in too short a time.

Have to comment here, since you're on thin ice.  Even before the DART deployed, commanders at several levels were taking steps to ensure the families of deployed troops were properly cared for (in fact, last night I overheard a conversation that completely contradicts your comments ... but I don't have permission to repeat what was said in this open forum).

As for your implying that "... uncertainty of how long their partners will be gone is always hard to deal with ...", I'd very pointedly remind everybody that normally most troops know whether they're deploying for a six month or one-year tour, or a posting, etc.
The deployment of the DART is normally only supposed to be for 40 days, by the way.
And, I'd also like to point out that even before the troops got on the bus to the airport, arrangements were in place for their postal service in theatre as well as tentative plans for them to be able to phone home (however, there was a bit of uncertainty ... because the equipment was still in flight ...).

Oh, and as far as "... if families have been still in the process of reuniting as a family after a tour ..." - the Army has a strict policy regarding for the employment of soldiers who've just returned from an operational tour (too lengthy to regurgitate here).

When will Ottawa wake up to the fact that our families are hurting or do they even care?

A number of initiatives have been put into place the past few years, such as a much-improved network of Military Family Resource Centres (MFRCs) across Canada.  While I was in Afghanistan the TMFRC contacted my mother on a regular basis, and sponsored a number of events for families to get together and talk.

Thus, I'd very politely suggest you're off base, and perhaps pursuing your own agenda ... ?
The confirmed death toll is 150,000 - surely this is an extraordinary event, and the deployment of Canadian troops on this humanitarian mission is something for family members to be proud of ...

[my love my life]

Hello Bossi,

Thanks for being frank and honest with me in your response.  Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly enough.

I have a genuine concern for our families and our service members and I have seen and cried with far too many (guys and gals) who are stressed out over all the deployments.  I am in no way suggesting we shouldn't have sent the Dart.  My concern was for WHO has gone and whether any who did go, had not had sufficient time at home before being gone again.

I am well aware of the normal length of tours etc and the fact that everyone knows that going in.  However, recent news releases commented on the normal length of time for the DART to be gone but suggested that they could be gone for much longer than anticipated.  THAT is what is hard for the families to deal with - the uncertainty.  There is certainly pride in wherever our troops are sent and this mission doesn't have the level of danger that Afghanistan has.

 It's a different kind of deployment but no matter how much you feel families are being looked after, the bottom line is that families are separated once again.  If we had more troops (I wish I had a loonie for every time I've heard we need more troops) then families wouldn't have to deal with so many separations.
Because regardless of where our troops have gone, THEY AREN'T HOME.

I am well aware of our MFRCs and their support. I am also well aware of those who benefit from the MFRCs and those who will have nothing to do with them - and why.

I strongly resent you inferring that I have my own agenda. Anyone that knows me and my commitment to our families would strongly argue with you on that point..

And I must ask Bossi - are you married?  Your blanket statements that the families are well looked after tells me that perhaps you are not - otherwise I don't understand your not 'getting it' as far as the emotional toll all of these taskings are having on our families.

We all know that there will be more unrest in the world and god forbid, more disasters that we might have to deal with - and so I just don't understand what it will take for Ottawa to wake up and make the military the priority it should be.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, our troops are burning out and so are our families.  Please feel free to agree to disagree with me but DO NOT question my motives.     Dianne

[armybuck041]

Oh, and as far as "... if families have been still in the process of reuniting as a family after a tour ..." - the Army has a strict policy regarding for the employment of soldiers who've just returned from an operational tour (too lengthy to regurgitate here).

Don't hide behind the policy.... those rules are circumvented quite often in the form of waivers. Fortunately, personnel are usually given the option to sign a waiver if they are still inside the 12 month period since they last deployed.

I will not get into the specific numbers of waivers here, but can tell you its no secret that there are some surprisingly high numbers in the Engineer world lately.

There are only 2 Field Squadrons in 2 CER.... so if both returned from Tour in early 04 and Dart aside, both are slated for Tour in 05..... well you do the math.

Fortunately for the Army, the Sapper is a unique breed of soldier who will continue to support regardless of conditions and personal hardship. While others are celebrating another success, he will quietly return to his corner amongst peers and await his next task........ To 24 Field Squadron, I tip my hat to you once again... "Chimo", and i'll see you this August in Kabul.

[CDN Aviator]

Hello Bossi,

Thanks for being frank and honest with me in your response.   Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly enough.

I have a genuine concern for our families and our service members and I have seen and cried with far too many (guys and gals) who are stressed out over all the deployments.   I am in no way suggesting we shouldn't have sent the Dart.   My concern was for WHO has gone and whether any who did go, had not had sufficient time at home before being gone again.

I am well aware of the normal length of tours etc and the fact that everyone knows that going in.   However, recent news releases commented on the normal length of time for the DART to be gone but suggested that they could be gone for much longer than anticipated.   THAT is what is hard for the families to deal with - the uncertainty.   There is certainly pride in wherever our troops are sent and this mission doesn't have the level of danger that Afghanistan has.

 It's a different kind of deployment but no matter how much you feel families are being looked after, the bottom line is that families are separated once again.   If we had more troops (I wish I had a loonie for every time I've heard we need more troops) then families wouldn't have to deal with so many separations.
Because regardless of where our troops have gone, THEY AREN'T HOME.

I am well aware of our MFRCs and their support. I am also well aware of those who benefit from the MFRCs and those who will have nothing to do with them - and why.

I strongly resent you inferring that I have my own agenda. Anyone that knows me and my commitment to our families would strongly argue with you on that point..

And I must ask Bossi - are you married?   Your blanket statements that the families are well looked after tells me that perhaps you are not - otherwise I don't understand your not 'getting it' as far as the emotional toll all of these taskings are having on our families.

We all know that there will be more unrest in the world and god forbid, more disasters that we might have to deal with - and so I just don't understand what it will take for Ottawa to wake up and make the military the priority it should be.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, our troops are burning out and so are our families.   Please feel free to agree to disagree with me but DO NOT question my motives.        Dianne

Dianne,

not to take this forther off topic but i am quite familiar with your point of view ( i have read your book "hurry up and wait").

Everyone who joins the military knows, or should know what to expect as far as deployements are concerned.  In the same breath, if you chose to marry someone in the military, you should know and accept what you are getting into. I am divorced, a result of military service, i have come to accept that and moved on.  I have no regrets about it.  My new girlffeind had quite the schock when i explained to her the deployement schedule for my new MOC.  I told her thats the way it was and she was either ok with that or she could go on her way.  We don't work for a civie companie in Toronto, we have a small military, deal with it. In the memorable words of an RSM i once had in 2 CER..."if you don't like it, get the ______ out !"

You asked what it would take for Ottawa to wake up ...i ask you this: did you and your freinds vote liberal the last time around ?

[Michael Dorosh]

Am I missing something here?

The culture of entitlement we have created for ourselves is leaching into every corner of society, and I see the military is no stranger to it.

During the Second World War, some soldiers left for the United Kindgom in December 1939 and stayed in Europe until 1944 or 1945.  That's five years.  There were no telephone calls, and home leave didn't exist.  There were not enough ships, and boats were too slow - a 30 day home leave meant the soldier was away from his Regiment in practical terms for 25% of a calendar year. 

Was this a good situation for families and soldiers?  No.  Do we have the means to prevent it now, with internet and satellite communications and air travel?   Yes.  Should we do what we can for soldiers and families serving abroad?  Of course.

Are we really, however, at the point that we must now whine, cry and complain about soldiers doing a 40 day humanitarian service?

Does anyone in this country just shut up and do their job, at the very least in an emergency where tens of thousands have just died, and thousands more are orphaned and/or homeless?

Let's get a grip.  Little Johnny Canuck going without daddy for two months is not a tragedy.  Not having Corporal Canuck go to assist disaster victims because Johnny might miss him is.

My dad worked seismic all his life, in South America, the Arctic Ocean, throughout Canada and the US, and was gone for weeks at a time.  We had no "support group" - we sucked it up, and frankly, growing up, I didn't complain and neither did mom.  We soldiered on.

Support groups are great, and minimizing disruptions to family life a worthy goal.  Some people need to toughen up a little bit; going without daddy for a couple of months, especially if he is helping people much, much less fortunate than us, is not a tragedy, sorry.

[CDN Aviator]

Am I missing something here?

The culture of entitlement we have created for ourselves is leaching into every corner of society, and I see the military is no stranger to it.

During the Second World War, some soldiers left for the United Kindgom in December 1939 and stayed in Europe until 1944 or 1945.   That's five years.   There were no telephone calls, and home leave didn't exist.   There were not enough ships, and boats were too slow - a 30 day home leave meant the soldier was away from his Regiment in practical terms for 25% of a calendar year.  

Was this a good situation for families and soldiers?   No.   Do we have the means to prevent it now, with internet and satellite communications and air travel?     Yes.   Should we do what we can for soldiers and families serving abroad?   Of course.

Are we really, however, at the point that we must now whine, cry and complain about soldiers doing a 40 day humanitarian service?

Does anyone in this country just shut up and do their job, at the very least in an emergency where tens of thousands have just died, and thousands more are orphaned and/or homeless?

Let's get a grip.   Little Johnny Canuck going without daddy for two months is not a tragedy.   Not having Corporal Canuck go to assist disaster victims because Johnny might miss him is.

My dad worked seismic all his life, in South America, the Arctic Ocean, throughout Canada and the US, and was gone for weeks at a time.   We had no "support group" - we sucked it up, and frankly, growing up, I didn't complain and neither did mom.   We soldiered on.

Support groups are great, and minimizing disruptions to family life a worthy goal.   Some people need to toughen up a little bit; going without daddy for a couple of months, especially if he is helping people much, much less fortunate than us, is not a tragedy, sorry.

You worded it better, but thats what i was getting at.

[my love my life]

Hello Aesop081,

One of the things I have been trying to find out is how frequently troops are signing waivers and how often they are pressured into doing so.   Thank you for your comments on them.

Goodness, I feel like I"m somewhat being attacked here.   I won't answer your political question as to how I or my friends voted.   I do not ask them as I feel your voting choice is a private matter. But having said that I'd like to say that I take my voting priviledge seriously and am satisfied with it.

Thank you for reading my first book.   I suggest you read my latest release.   I'm not trying to plug some book sales here - for heavens sake borrow it from the nearest MFRC library - but I do hope some of you guys will read it because then you will have a much better understanding of how your partners feel on a variety of issues and you'll realize they are not alone in feeling as they do.

You make it all sound so cut and dried Aesop but it's not. This is a complex lifestyle for your partners.I refer to it as an emotional yoyo and certainly today's military families have unique challenges to face.You can sit down with your girlfriend and describe what your life will be like if you make your relationship a partnership but it really doesn't sink in until the first time you deal with a separation/deployment - then reality hits home.    I don't expect you guys to completely understand our way of thinking, but I do expect you to respect it and hope you'll learn from it.   We don't see the lifestyle the same as you do.   We are more emotional creatures that often think with our hearts.

I guess this message is going in another direction but I hope that by becoming involved in this forum that I can offer a different perspective and that it will be accepted as that.   Thanks,   Dianne

[CDN Aviator]

Hello Aesop081,

One of the things I have been trying to find out is how frequently troops are signing waivers and how often they are pressured into doing so.   Thank you for your comments on them.

Goodness, I feel like I"m somewhat being attacked here.   I won't answer your political question as to how I or my friends voted.   I do not ask them as I feel your voting choice is a private matter. But having said that I'd like to say that I take my voting priviledge seriously and am satisfied with it.

Thank you for reading my first book.   I suggest you read my latest release.   I'm not trying to plug some book sales here - for heavens sake borrow it from the nearest MFRC library - but I do hope some of you guys will read it because then you will have a much better understanding of how your partners feel on a variety of issues and you'll realize they are not alone in feeling as they do.

You make it all sound so cut and dried Aesop but it's not. This is a complex lifestyle for your partners.I refer to it as an emotional yoyo and certainly today's military families have unique challenges to face.You can sit down with your girlfriend and describe what your life will be like if you make your relationship a partnership but it really doesn't sink in until the first time you deal with a separation/deployment - then reality hits home.    I don't expect you guys to completely understand our way of thinking, but I do expect you to respect it and hope you'll learn from it.   We don't see the lifestyle the same as you do.   We are more emotional creatures that often think with our hearts.

I guess this message is going in another direction but I hope that by becoming involved in this forum that I can offer a different perspective and that it will be accepted as that.   Thanks,   Dianne

Dianne,

again this s off the posted topic (mods feel free to tell me to shut up).

I was not attacking you with my voting question, nor did i actualy expect you to tell me who you voted for.  I was simply illustrating the fact that even though, canadians are alledgedly concerned about the CF, the liberals are still in power. Enough said, sorry if it came across wrong.

I actualy will read your new book, looking forward to it actualy.

Yes i do make it quite cut and dry. Yes it is a very comlex lifestyle, i will not disagree with you on that.  If you read my profile, you will see that i am quite familiar with the wolrd you live in.......i was there ! I will agree that it doesnt sink in for families until it actualy happens but everybody needs to remember where they work and what the job is. I understand your way of thinking but i cannot help but feel that you represent a rather selfish point of view. As previously pointed out by Michel, there are things in the world bigger than military families. Its not for everyone members and families alike.

I may sound harsh by over the years i have had to listen to ppl whining about too many deployements, QOL, stuff like that.

I hope that you do not feel that i do not respect your opinion, i rather enjoy being able to discuss this topic

[Michael Dorosh]

You make it all sound so cut and dried Aesop but it's not. This is a complex lifestyle for your partners.I refer to it as an emotional yoyo and certainly today's military families have unique challenges to face.You can sit down with your girlfriend and describe what your life will be like if you make your relationship a partnership but it really doesn't sink in until the first time you deal with a separation/deployment - then reality hits home.   I don't expect you guys to completely understand our way of thinking, but I do expect you to respect it and hope you'll learn from it.  We don't see the lifestyle the same as you do.  We are more emotional creatures that often think with our hearts.

You are identifying a problem - but not stating what you feel needs to be done to combat the problem.  We have plenty of problems without solutions in this country; I find problems without solutions rarely worth discussing.  So much more satisfying to identify answers than questions.  In essence, I am asking "so what".

[MCG]

I am asking "so what".

so we need more soldiers (of the right skills) to share the work.

[armybuck041]

so we need more soldiers (of the right skills) to share the work.

Exactly.... short and sweet...

All i'm trying to say is that the CF made policy about the rules and duration for sending pers on deployment. No sooner than it was in ink they had to come up with ways around it because the policy was almost impossible to fullfil. This is the issue i'm trying to raise.

Its very easy for people to quote history and the hardships faced by our veterans. While I understand and agree, you must realize that this is another time. The problem is trying to keep people in....

Just out of curiousity, what is the Operational Tempo like over in your corner Michael D?

[Rider Pride]

You guys are heartless.   

I do agree, we are a small volunteer army. If you are in Petawawa, and don't want to go on tour/deployments/exercises, whatever...you have two choices; posted out of Petawawa, or get out of the military. Saying that, one area that has improved is that if you do not/can not deploy because you feel it recent deployments have been too much of a strain on your family, the unit will not hold that against you and will find you a role, ie ops & tng, Base clinic etc for a yr or so.

I can only speak with certainty of the medical side of 2 CMBG and DART. The DART and tour  manning is assigned by the Fd Amb RSM in consultation with several mbrs of the senior staff. Nobody HAS to go on a deployment and are usually asked to fill a slot on the TO&E prior to final manning is confirmed. But all of us want to do our job and are willing to go do them wherever, whenever.

As most of 2 Fd Amb (2/3 of the unit) was on tour last yr and only returned between Feb and Apr of 2004, I would be safe to assume more then 50% are being deployed within a yr of return (I would go so far as to say every Cpl to Sgt medic deployingwith DART just returned from ISAF or Bosnia). Of the 45 or so Medics deploying to Afghanistan on roto 3, there are no less then 7 who are being redeployed at exactly or in less then the yr time from their return from overseas.

This is no longer a military problem, as the CF itself has been trying to make people aware, and attempting to put policies in place for several yrs. IMHO, it is now a political responsibility. If the Gov't doesn't a) slow down deployments or b) increase recruiting, the problem will never go away.

ps-DART can be deployed 90+ days if required. This could be one of those cases.

[armybuck041]

You guys are heartless.     

I do agree, we are a small volunteer army. If you are in Petawawa, and don't want to go on tour/deployments/exercises, whatever...you have two choices; posted out of Petawawa, or get out of the military. Saying that, one area that has improved is that if you do not/can not deploy because you feel it recent deployments have been too much of a strain on your family, the unit will not hold that against you and will find you a role, ie ops & tng, Base clinic etc for a yr or so.

I can only speak with certainty of the medical side of 2 CMBG and DART. The DART and tour   manning is assigned by the Fd Amb RSM in consultation with several mbrs of the senior staff. Nobody HAS to go on a deployment and are usually asked to fill a slot on the TO&E prior to final manning is confirmed. But all of us want to do our job and are willing to go do them wherever, whenever.

As most of 2 Fd Amb (2/3 of the unit) was on tour last yr and only returned between Feb and Apr of 2004, I would be safe to assume more then 50% are being deployed within a yr of return (I would go so far as to say every Cpl to Sgt medic deployingwith DART just returned from ISAF or Bosnia). Of the 45 or so Medics deploying to Afghanistan on roto 3, there are no less then 7 who are being redeployed at exactly or in less then the yr time from their return from overseas.

This is no longer a military problem, as the CF itself has been trying to make people aware, and attempting to put policies in place for several yrs. IMHO, it is now a political responsibility. If the Gov't doesn't a) slow down deployments or b) increase recruiting, the problem will never go away.

ps-DART can be deployed 90+ days if required. This could be one of those cases.

Well said...

[Michael Dorosh]

so we need more soldiers (of the right skills) to share the work.

That's a given.   It sounded like the original poster was objecting to anybody deploying for any reason.  Like we should get rid of the military because girlfriends will be left at home alone.  Couldn't make much sense of that position.

[Rider Pride]

I am not involved with the Dart as I am deploying as part of Op Athena TFK Roto 3.

As am I.

[my love my life]

Michael  - I am not identifying a problem I am telling it like it is.

Aesop081 thanks for your message.  However, I resent your comments about my view being a selfish one.  Personally I am finished with the lifestyle and all I am trying to do is be a voice for those who don't feel they have one (military wives/partners).  That doesn't mean that I agree with all of their concerns or 'whining'.  But whether they are justified or not, they are real to those that have these feelings.

In fact, I have been quite vocal in saying that in some ways I believe we are offering too much support to not only our families but our service members too and I'm probably going to take a big hit for that comment but really, we are teaching our familiies to depend on the system and not on themselves and we are not going to see the results of this mindset for 20-25 years until this generation leaves the lifestyle.  It's a big, bad scary world out there when that military door shuts behind you and you are on your own with no support

I must say that I find some of the comments in this thread rather cold and uncaring and that really surprises me.      Cheers, Dianne

[CDN Aviator]

Michael   - I am not identifying a problem I am telling it like it is.

Aesop081 thanks for your message.   However, I resent your comments about my view being a selfish one.   Personally I am finished with the lifestyle and all I am trying to do is be a voice for those who don't feel they have one (military wives/partners).   That doesn't mean that I agree with all of their concerns or 'whining'.   But whether they are justified or not, they are real to those that have these feelings.

In fact, I have been quite vocal in saying that in some ways I believe we are offering too much support to not only our families but our service members too and I'm probably going to take a big hit for that comment but really, we are teaching our familiies to depend on the system and not on themselves and we are not going to see the results of this mindset for 20-25 years until this generation leaves the lifestyle.   It's a big, bad scary world out there when that military door shuts behind you and you are on your own with no support

I must say that I find some of the comments in this thread rather cold and uncaring and that really surprises me.         Cheers, Dianne

Fair enough.  I do find your above comments rather interesting to say the least. in the end its' the member's responsability to prepare his.her family for the reality of military life. It may seem cold to you but i volunteered for the military full well, i ensured i knew what i was gettin into. People gettin into relationships with military members should not jump in blindly. We can argue this till we are blue in the face of course.  I will admit that i was not directing my "selfish" comment specificaly in your direction and i apologise for my poor wording.  it just seems to me that people have to stop siging "me me me" and realise what they are into. I think the problem is a failiure to understand the military lifestyle by familiy members.

[my love my life]

Hello Aesop, Thank you for that - I agree with your comments.  I can' t tell you how many 'facts about the lifestyle' that spouses have shared with me over the many years of doing interviews that I know to be untrue. I was not only a military wife but  I worked for the military as a secretary for many, many years and it just amazed me sometimes at how little some of the spouses know about the lifestyle and about their husband's trade.  Working for the military certainly gave me a much better understanding of some of the day by day frustrations my husband and others dealt with and it gave me a much clearer picture of the military as a whole.

You are right, people shouldn't go into this lifestyle blindly whether as a service member or as a partner but they still do....  Anyway, thanks so much for your posts, I"ve enjoyed 'chatting' with you and look forward to more discussions on other topics as time goes on.  In the mean time do take good care and keep smiling!!  Cheers, Dianne

[bossi]

I've been on the road today, and thus off the Net ...

Goodness, I feel like I"m somewhat being attacked here.  I won't answer your political question as to how I or my friends voted.  I do not ask them as I feel your voting choice is a private matter.

Okay - so let me get this straight:  It's not okay for anybody to ask you how you voted, but it's okay for you to ask ...

... And I must ask Bossi - are you married?   Your blanket statements that the families are well looked after tells me that perhaps you are not - otherwise I don't understand your not 'getting it' as far as the emotional toll all of these taskings are having on our families.

Hmmm ... and you feel like you're somewhat being attacked ... hmmm ...

And then you say ...

... I strongly resent you inferring that I have my own agenda. Anyone that knows me and my commitment to our families would strongly argue with you on that point ...

But, I could have sworn you said something like ...

... all I am trying to do is be a voice for those who don't feel they have one (military wives/partners). ...

Um, I dunno ... but, it sure sounds like you've got an agenda ...

Now, to address a number of discussion points:

1.  It's none of your business whether my family life has suffered from military deployments, etc.
On one hand, personal experience can be very beneficial - on the other, sometimes people can't see the forest for the trees ...
(for example, are you going to accuse men of being insensitive a'holes because they've never personally experienced menopause/childbirth/post-partum depression/menopause themselves, or is it possible for an external observer to detect "raging hormones"?)

2.  Some of the rhetoric in your posts here has been and destructive to the moral of the troops deploying, and their families.  Therefore, I've replied with the sole purpose of countering incorrect or inflammatory insinuations which will further undermine morale. 

3.  Cold and uncaring?  Far from it.  I replied to your post out of compassion for the troops and their families.  You, on the other hand, are stirring up the pot and evoking emotional responses - I notice several of my Army.ca friends have posted on this thread, and I can see their blood/stress levels rising - that pi$$es me off big time (and now I have to wash my mouth out with soap).

"Far from being a handicap to command, compassion is the measure of it. For unless one values the lives of his soldiers and is tormented by their ordeals, he is unfit to command."
- Gen. Omar Bradley

4.  You say:

... I can' t tell you how many 'facts about the lifestyle' that spouses have shared with me over the many years of doing interviews that I know to be untrue. I was not only a military wife but I worked for the military as a secretary for many, many years and it just amazed me sometimes at how little some of the spouses know about the lifestyle and about their husband's trade. Working for the military certainly gave me a much better understanding of some of the day by day frustrations my husband and others dealt with and it gave me a much clearer picture of the military as a whole. ...

To which I'd reply "right back at ya."  I'm seeing red right now, so I can't remember the exact word I'd like to use to describe your negativity and iconoclastic attitude as perceived in your posts.  So, to back up a few steps ... the commanders, commanding officers, sergeant-majors, and soldiers all involved in this deployment of DART are faced with a difficult task, under difficult circumstances - they deserve better than to be stabbed in the backs, by having doubt and dissension sewn amongst their families.

Don't know how long they'll be deployed?  Okay - so what?  Is it better to lie, and say 40/90/180 days ... and then change it on a weekly basis?  Or, is it better to be unequivocally honest from the outset and say "We are not 100% certain"?  Hmmm ... to lie, or to tell the truth ... hmmm ...

Okay, and before I have an aneurysm ... I'll let you in on my agenda:
I'm not going to benefit from anything I've said here - in fact, I can imagine that I've only ticked some people off.  However, I've waded in with one sole purpose - to set the record straight, and to try and avoid further undermining the precarious morale situation (deployed or otherwise).

[my love my life]

Hello Bossi,

As I said earlier, you just don't get it and judging by the surprising anger in your message there is no point in discussing this further.  However, if you want to take another shot or two at me go for it if it will make you feel better.  Otherwise, may I suggest some anger management classes.

   I thought this was a group where you could express your opinions and they would be respected for being just that - my opinions.  I never expected to be attacked for voicing my thoughts.  But, since you are the only one who seems to have a problem with my posts I'll just consider the source. 

I will continue to support the families as I have for the past 15 years and I will continue to post in this forum - unless the moderators feel otherwise.   Dianne

[bossi]

Au contraire, Dianne - you just don't get it, and judging by the surprising lack of comprehension on your part there is not point ... etc. ...

... I will continue to support the families as I have for the past 15 years ...

Good for you.  And I'll continue to look after the troops, as I have for the past 27.5 years ...
(oh, goody, goody - I win by 12.5 years - wasn't that a useful little exercise in "whipping it out and measuring it" ...?  What'll we play next?)

So, to sum up:
We don't know how long the DART will be deployed, some troops are deploying so often that both they are their families are suffering, and there are different opinions as to how to "know and promote the welfare of the troops".

Correction does much, but encouragement does more.
Encouragement after censure is as the sun after a shower.
-- Goethe, 1749-1832

"Waste no time arguing what a good person should be. Be one."
-- Marcus Aurelius Antoninus

Now I've got to go and wash dishes, bake some cookies, and tidy up.  C.U.

[CDN Aviator]

Now I've got to go and wash dishes, bake some cookies, and tidy up.   C.U.

Save some cookies for me Bossi, i'm starving !!

[the 48th regulator]

baking cookies...aww see he is always looking out for the troops

thanks mate..

tess

[Michael Dorosh]

baking cookies...aww see he is always looking out for the troops

thanks mate..

tess

No chocolate chips, please, they go straight to my hips.

[9r domestic]

Well since this thread has already gone off topic I will now share my opinion.

Dearest Dianne,

I have only been a military wife/girlfriend for 7 years, so I guess I am a bit of a "newbie" compared to you. I must tell you that your comment regarding too much support for families and the troops is offensive to me. I feel that if anyone is being cold it is you. Maybe you can fill me in on how I am getting too much support, because I don't know of any support the military has given to me. There is not one program run at my local MFRC that would begin to cater to my needs as a military spouse. That is what my family is for, and most of the time I just suck it up. I knew full well what I was signing up for when I met my husband. I also feel that most spouses learn rather quickly what they are in for if they didn't know before.

I agree with bossi, you just don't get it.

Dawn

 

[my love my life]

Hello Dawn,

Thanks for your post and I'll try to answer as best I can.  I believe I said 'in some ways' there is too much support today.  For example, based on past experience when a unit deploys the rear party provides a drop off point for families to leave parcels to send to their partners in theatre,  quite often they provide the brown paper and string to wrap the parcels - and those parcels are sent at no cost to the sender.  I spoke to one military wife who thought the Rear Party should come around to the homes and collect these parcels.  That's absurd and I could write a volume on similar incidents.  I also worked for the military for many, many years and do feel that there are some avenues where too much is being done.  You don't have to agree with me but I am entitled to my opinion.

Our MFRCs provide needed services for SOME people and Dawn I have heard from many girlfriends who don't feel they fit in at the MFRCs.  In fact I've heard from so many that I devoted a whole chapter in my new book on girlfriends because I feel you have special issues that are not being addressed and I felt you needed to be acknowledged - which I have done.

During my time as a young military wife there was NO support.  You depended on your friends because that's all you had.  I am so pleased to see that there is more support for today's military spouses because they not only need it - they deserve it.  In my time I didn't have to deal with the dangerous tours you ladies do today but I stand by my comments based on my many years experience in this lifestyle whether others agree with them or not.

Dawn over the past 10 years I have talked to literally hundreds of military spouses all over Canada and Europe and I do know what I'm talking about.  So you and Bossi can continue to feel that I 'don't get' and that's ok because I know that I really do - and so do those hundreds of wives. 

Thank you for taking the time to comment and I hope we can chat further.  Cheers, Dianne

[whiskey601]

No chocolate chips, please, they go straight to my hips.

I'll take them,and start my diet next week.

[bossi]

Dawn,
Personally, I'd offer the opinion that the MFRC is an attempt to officially formalise the support network that used to exist "once upon a time" ... (i.e. neighbours would help each other, the unit "rear party" would go out of their way to help ... etc.)

This week while I was a liaison officer somewhere else, I personally overheard a senior officer promise to shovel the driveway of a young captain while he was in Sri Lanka ... returning the favour for when he, himself, was deployed previously ...

My friends have told me stories of the good old days when the Rear Party was kinda like a Big Brother - even shovelling snow, car-pooling the kids to the hockey arena/swimming pool, helping to buy a car when the family clunker rusted out, sharing teenaged kids as babysitters, and so on ...

My mother has told me about how the families would all get together during the Second World War, too ...

Oddly enough, I can still remember when I first enlisted and was welcomed to ... "The Regimental Family".

Best of luck to you - and don't forget the old saying:   "If you're not part of the solution ... ha!"

P.S. (I see that Dianne posted while I was typing ... so I can only guess that she and her hundreds of acquaintances are the only ones that "get it", while thousands of others don't ...)

[KevinB]

I must admit I read it like Bossi did.  I just chose to tune it out...

 I think Michael Dorosh hit the nail on the head, and I think that so soon people forget we still are still officially a party to a shooting war - Yeah you got it we signed on to the GWOT (even if we have slunk back under our rock at the moment)

 We have come a long ways as far as family supportgoes from the first tours days in Cyprus (albiet my parents have not gotten any better at sending care packages...)  And now we don't give 30days notice for PMQ eviction to deceased members families...

I would prefer to see a solution offered rather than just complaints - even if some of the complains are valid.


Cheers
Kevin
 

[MCG]

Now that the DART team has left Canada with no idea of when they will return home, Does anyone know if any deployed DART members were scheduled to go on a tour next month? Are there many who deployed who have only recently returned from a tour?

To me, this emergency is another example of how ill prepared we are to deal with such events. Many find it totally embarrassing that we have to depend on other countries for transportation. But what is of more concern to me is the families left behind. The uncertainty of how long their partners will be gone is always hard to deal with but if families have been still in the process of reuniting as a family after a tour, this adds much stress to families already overwhelmed with too many separations of too long a duration in too short a time.

I think the hardships related to the specific deployment of the DART are by far exaggerated.   However, I also think this post was made in the spirit of objecting to the overall level of pers tempo.   I think it is fair to say we have been sitting at a fairly high pers tempo since well before the war on terror, and that it has taken a toll on families.   At the moment, there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

The question would then become: what is an acceptable pers tempo for soldiers that can be sustained indefinitely?   Have we surpassed that?

When will Ottawa wake up to the fact that our families are hurting or do they even care?

It seems she would agree with most of us that the blame is primarily in the hands of politicians, and not in the hands of the military leadership.

The solution has already been pointed to: more soldiers.

[Infanteer]

Can we get angry with Pers Tempo?  As Michael D. has brought up on more then a few occasions, the Canadian Army deployed soldiers for 4 years (WWI) and 5-6 years (WWII) with no return to hearth and home what-so-ever.  Granted, we aren't in a total war situation, but the extremely dynamic nature of the world today should be more then enough to tell everyone in or waiting to get in that they should expect to be lobbed overseas quite frequently.

[MCG]

Can we get angry with Pers Tempo?

"Angry" would be silly, but we can be concerned.

The world wars are not appropriate comparisons (as you said, they are the closest this country has ever come to total war and they even required the draft).   We are not at peace either (and I think this is the single factor that would suggest that our pers tempo could legitimately rise above the indefinitely sustainable level), but our pers tempo & op tempo are arguably very similar to where they were in the "post Cold War" years when we were at "peace."   So is our current tempo that of the limited war that is on going (in which case our tempo during the '90s was too high) or is our current tempo still that of a nation "at peace" (in which case we are grossly under manned to maintain the tempo indefinitely).

[MCG]

Maybe Korea (which overlapped with our redeployment to western Europe) would be a better comparison for where we should be on the pers tempo spectrum?

[Infanteer]

We are not at peace either (and I think this is the single factor that would suggest that our pers tempo could legitimately rise above the indefinitely sustainable level), but our pers tempo & op tempo are arguably very similar to where they were in the "post Cold War" years when we were at "peace."

I think this is the crux here.   As long as the international arena is rife with war and conflict, soldiers as professionals have to be content with whatever tempo ends on their lap.   I don't think I'd be willing to sit back on the couch and watch Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Kosovo, and the Persian Gulf on CNN, even if it meant over-committal (let me try to say this again after being in the Regs and having 3 tours in 4 years.... ).

Anyways, despite the fact that the Pers tempo is the same now as it was in the bad-times (early '90's), I think this period of stress can be better justified.   UNPROFOR and Somalia were vague missions that were ignored by the public, failed operationally, and had one end in another decade of commitment and the other end in shame and humiliation due to the actions of a few.

Now, we have soldiers engaged in a real mission that is right infront of our eyes and an enemy who is as real as the goosesteping Germans or Communist hordes we faced a half a century ago.   It would have been easy (but ill-advised) to say "who cares" back in '93, but now, we have no choice but to accept the high strain that we do for we are involved on a murky Cabinet War which for some is Total in nature (ie: our civilians are legitimate targets of the terrorists).

Anyways, enough philosophizing from me tonight.

Cheers,
Infanteer

[MCG]

Anyways, despite the fact that the Pers tempo is the same now as it was in the bad-times (early '90's), I think this period of stress can be better justified.

Personally, I think we had a good Op Tempo in the '90s, but that we needed a larger force in order to have reduced the Pers Tempo to something appropriate to a "peacetime."   That same larger force would allow for a greater Op Tempo in times of greater conflict and war.

[Infanteer]

Personally, I think we had a good Op Tempo in the '90s, but that we needed a larger force in order to have reduced the Pers Tempo to something appropriate to a "peacetime."  That same larger force would allow for a greater Op Tempo in times of greater conflict and war.

Agreed, now offer that on the alter of Healthcare, universal Daycare, and Sponsership programs....

[Rider Pride]

Only if polls would show that its where the vast majority of Cdns want their money to go...

Personally, if given the choice to put money towards only one of the big 5 issues, I would have to go with health care, because it affects not only my immediate family, but siblings, parents and out-laws as well.

Perstempo is a personal inconvenience(each mbr and his family deal with it differently), and considering the financial gain we are now getting while deployed, not one without some benefit.

[Infanteer]

Personally, I would avoid more healthcare money until a serious public debate takes place to reform a system that is heaving under its own antiquated weight.  Pumping more water into a leaky hose won't help a thing.

[bossi]

Perstempo is a personal inconvenience(each mbr and his family deal with it differently), and considering the financial gain we are now getting while deployed, not one without some benefit.

As an aside, I'm noticing a "new" enthusiasm to deploy amongst some people ...
(i.e. now that it's tax-free, "suddenly" some people who never volunteered before are rushing to the bank ... this includes people who've never deployed in their career, and even those who'd previously said "they'd never deploy again" ...)

But - shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth - if it helps take the pressure off all the troops who've been getting burnt out up to now ... then they're simply a hitherto untapped pool ...

[Rider Pride]

As an aside, I'm noticing a "new" enthusiasm to deploy amongst some people ...
(i.e. now that it's tax-free, "suddenly" some people who never volunteered before are rushing to the bank ... this includes people who've never deployed in their career, and even those who'd previously said "they'd never deploy again" ...)

People who (I have first person contact with this) turn down a tour to Bosnia, because they won't make enough money and that tours don't help your career as much as staying back, now jumping at the chance to go on thier first tour, to Afghanistan, no less....go figure.

[SeaKingTacco]

People who (I have first person contact with this) turn down a tour to Bosnia, because they won't make enough money and that tours don't help your career as much as staying back, now jumping at the chance to go on thier first tour, to Afghanistan, no less....go figure.

I'm not really sure that I am all that comfortable about deploying with people whose primary consideration is monetary.  When people start chucking ordnance in your general direction, no amount of money is worth it.  It is nice to have some other motivating factor to keep you going in times like that.

[KevinB]

I'm not really sure that I am all that comfortable about deploying with people whose primary consideration is monetary.  .

Welcome to the CF 
I dont think altruistic reasoning is behind 90% of those deployed - especially whne you listen to comments made by other when we are overseas...

[Rider Pride]

Kev,
you mean like those people the ombudsmans spoke to in Kabul when he was there recently?

[KevinB]

I got some worse stuff than that...

[Rider Pride]

curiosity peaked...

oh do tell.