Author Topic: Afghan Medals Process (merged)  (Read 34889 times)

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Offline Another Recce Guy

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Afghan Medals Process (merged)
« on: November 25, 2002, 13:53:00 »
Medals slow in coming for veterans of Afghanistan
 
Michael Smith  
National Post


Monday, November 25, 2002
 
OTTAWA - Canadian soldiers have been recommended for more than 20 medals of bravery for outstanding service during their six-month tour in Afghanistan, the National Post has learned, but it could take as long as a year until they receive them.

Sources in the Department of National Defence say some of the military‘s highest decorations will be handed out to members of the Canadian battle group, which included the 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia‘s Canadian Light Infantry, the Lord Strathcona‘s Horse, Royal Canadian Engineers and support personnel.

Lieutenant-Colonel Pat Stogran, the commander of the 850-member battle group, confirmed that at least 20 of the troops under his command have been recommended for medals.

But the lengthy approval process means the soldiers will not receive the awards for up to a year, and Lt.-Col. Stogran said it was unfortunate that the decorations take such a long time to approve.

"Our system should be a little more timely. It‘s almost anti-climactic by the time we get our medals. So much for positive reinforcement," he told the Post.

"For the Americans, they‘re decorated in theatre: Strike when the metal is hot -- so to speak -- for positive reinforcement." Sources say Lt.-Col. Stogran has himself been recommended for a decoration, one of the highest awards for officers in the Canadian Forces.

Defence sources say his troops have been recommended for decorations such as the Medal for Bravery, Mention in Dispatches and the Meritorious Service Cross for actions above and beyond the regular call of duty.

Sources say some of those medals will be given to the Canadian snipers whose performance during Operation Anaconda so impressed their U.S allies they were nominated for Bronze Stars.

Other awards will be handed out for the actions of soldiers during the aftermath of the friendly fire incident that left four Canadian soldiers dead and eight wounded, and for troops on the Canadian offensive operations Harpoon and Khost.

Major-General Steve Lucas, the chief of staff of administration and human resources for the Canadian Forces, would not say whether medals or decorations are being considered for Afghan veterans. "We have not had a session concerning these type of awards yet," said Maj.-Gen. Lucas, who is the chairman of the committee that decides on honours and awards.

Maj.-Gen. Lucas was one of those who decided on awarding the South West Asia Service Medal (SWASM) for all the personnel involved in Operation Apollo. To date, only a handful of the SWASM medals have been given out: the Governor-General awarded them to a token 29 soldiers who recently returned from the region this summer. Around 7,000 of the service medals will eventually be given out.

© Copyright  2002 National Post
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Offline combat_medic

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Re: Medals slow in coming for veterans of Afghanistan
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2002, 14:16:00 »
Is this a surprise to ANYONE?!?!

In my unit, we just handed out the Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medals last spring, and they should‘ve been sent 2 years before. Also, how many people here can say that they got their CD on time? Anyone? Maybe it‘s just in the reserves, but usually they‘re between 6 months to 3 years late, even if they‘re ordered a year early.
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Offline Gunner

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Re: Medals slow in coming for veterans of Afghanistan
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2002, 15:24:00 »
To a certain extent, I prefer the CF way of awarding medals.  In essence, units make their recommendation and it is  supported/not supported through the chain of command.  The CF Honours and Awards committee judges the merits of each application against a standard criteria.  This does take time, but, hopefully those who deserve it will get it and the award isn‘t watered down.

I‘m sure LCol Stogran thinks that 20 of his officers/soldiers deserve the MSC, MB, MiD, etc, but according to the CF definition that the honours and awards committee will use, they may not get it.

Perhaps I‘m a traditionalist and I don‘t like to see the current climate of tossing honours and awards at soldiers just so they feel good about themselves. I use as an example teh Commander in Chief Unit Commendation.  How many ships/units are going to get it for Op APOLLO...any wagers?
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Re: Medals slow in coming for veterans of Afghanistan
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2002, 15:47:00 »
Generally speaking, I agree with you. The question is whether or not the delay is a reasonable one caused by making an appropriate review, or an unreasonable one caused by administrative inefficiency or politics (as in the case of the Somalia medal). I‘m sure there are cases of both.

The awards systems does seem to have been watered down somewhat over the years (I mean, come on, they gave me a medal for serving in GERMANY???). The British equivalent (near as I can tell) of the SSM is the General Service Medal which was awarded for such operations as Northern Ireland, Malaya, Borneo, etc. Hardly a reasonable comparison to Germany and Alert. There will also always be the debates about who is eligible for medals (the old stories of people flying in on an "inspection" for just long enough to qualify, or of NDHQ staff being given the MSC for doing the staff work for an operation)

Of course, just like the "battle school was harder in MY day" argument, I‘m sure people have been saying this forever..........and I‘ve heard the same thing from friends in a number of other armies too

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Re: Medals slow in coming for veterans of Afghanistan
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2002, 16:35:00 »
What about people who got the Former Yugoslavia medal who served in a headquarters in Italy and never set foot in Former Yugoslavia? Do they deserve a medal?
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: Medals slow in coming for veterans of Afghanistan
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2002, 17:30:00 »
This is nothing new, and if anyone has any constructive advice to give those responsible for issuing the medals, do so now.  You would think rewarding troops in a timely manner would be a priority, but sadly, it isn‘t.  So where does the problem lie, and how do we fix it?

I did get a kick out of the photo of the Navy NCM on the cover of Maple Leaf with her new medal.  My CSM here in the Highlanders commented that it must have been rough for her, humping a Carl G up and down those hills in Afghanistan, with 100 pound loads and 40 degree heat.

I think he was being sarcastic.  :rolleyes:    :D
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Offline Gunner

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Re: Medals slow in coming for veterans of Afghanistan
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2002, 19:49:00 »
Hey, listen guys, there are three topics here.

First, most of the SWA Medals will be issued by Xmas.  That isn‘t bad for a Roto 0 inwhich a medal must be designed, approved, produced and distributed.  In our environment of consultation, I don‘t view this as that bad.

Secondly, the SWA Medal is issued to everyone involved in Op APOLLO.  Those in the actual theatre of operations (3 PPCLI BG, SLOC, Navy, Air Force) get an "Afghanistan" Bar.   We all signed the dotted line when we joined.  Some have easier jobs than otehrs, but in the end we all should be focussed on the same mission.  Who‘s come back to base camp after a ****ty patrol in the middle of the night and the the cooks have stayed up preparing coffee and a late meal.  They don‘t stick their ***  out on the line, but they have a very important role.  Moreover, ask 3 PPCLI (less snipers) how many Al Queda or Taliban they killed or captured?  How many for the Navy?  Guess who has a higher "body" count and making the world safe for our kids?  I hope that navy NCM wears his/her medal with as much pride as a soldier from 3 PPCLI and the staff officer in Tampa.  They were all members of the same team trying to accomplish the same mission.  

Third, other medals/awards/citations for bravery, service, etc.  I don‘t disagree that they should be presented in a timelier manner, but what steps do you take out to increase teh speed of presentation?
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: Medals slow in coming for veterans of Afghanistan
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2002, 23:50:00 »
Gunner - you are right of course; as a clerk in an infantry company I have pulled my share of easy duty while the grunts have been freezing/sweating/miserable.  I think it just speaks for the need for something comparable to the US Combat Infantry Badge or German Infanteriesturmabzeichen.  Even a WW II vet will tell you that the guys who landed at Dieppe, stormed the Hitler Line at point of bayonet, or charged German MG positions in the Scheldt got the same rack of medals as the dude at CMHQ who ordered paper clips.

How‘s that for constructive?   ;)  

I don‘t doubt the Navy chick missed her family while on deployment in the Gulf, and certainly she earned her medal.  Still, it‘s just seems to downgrade the achievements of those who were in mortal danger (not to mention doing their bodies serious harm by carrying heavy loads in severe climate conditions...when these guys are pensioners, I wonder how many will be feeling the effects on their bodies?) rather than eating ice cream in the galley.  This too is nothing new.  Not that a CIB will help them with their arthritis when they are pensioners, either, but it would be nice to see them get their due - as has been/is the custom in other armies.

Those Bronze Star medals might have helped redress the imbalance a little...what ever became of that?  I would hate to think that because one of them yelled at a chaplain, that the Canadian awards that were going to replace the Bronze Stars were also abandoned?
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Offline Another Recce Guy

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Re: Medals slow in coming for veterans of Afghanistan
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2002, 06:02:00 »
Interesting idea of a C.I.B. but how would you define the criteria for it?  Take the Former Yugoslavia.  During UNPROFOR lots of guys got shot at regularly.  Would they get the badge?  Now with IFOR, the guys patrol but rarely is there a shot fired in angry.  Does getting shot at during UNPROFOR qualify equally to the guy getting shot at in Afghanistan?  I don’t mind the idea of giving a little extra to the guys on the pointy end but how would we do it?
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: Medals slow in coming for veterans of Afghanistan
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2002, 17:27:00 »
I think rather than a combat badge, why not a modification to the trades badge?

To qualify, you would have had to serve in a combat arms subunit (meaning that drivers, medics, clerks, etc. would qualify, but only if they were directly employed in, or attached to, an infantry company, pioneer platoon, armoured squadron, engineer squadron, armoured or recce squadron, or artillery/air defence battery that was employed "in the field").

The trades badges already identify what trade a member is employed in currently.  Why not modify the badge as follows:

If employed on a peacekeeping mission for one month (or if wounded/injured during before that qualifying time elapses), your trades badge gets a UN blue surround (ie piping around the edge of the badge).

If employed on a peacemaking operation (Somalia, IFOR - ie not peacekeeping but an operation short of full blown combat), you get a maroon surround.

If employed in a war fighting operation (Gulf War, Afghanistan) for at least one month (or are wounded during the qualifying period), a scarlet surround.

You would only get one trades badge so altered - if you did two tours in Cyprus then fought in Afghanistan, you would get the scarlet edged badge.  The tours in Cyprus are already noted by your campaign medals.

The trades badge would be for the trade the soldier was employed in during these duties.

What this would signal, then, is employment as a, say, infantryman in a hostile enviroment.

At the risk of looking like the boyscouts, if you changed trades after serving in an infantry company in combat, and say remustered to supply tech.  You would keep the unpiped supply tech badge in the position normally worn as a "current trade" and on the opposite arm, you would get to keep the piped badge showing the trade you "saw action" in.

You would only be entitled to two badges maximum - one to reflect your current trade, and one to reflect past peacekeeping or combat service.

This would only be useful for ranks of Private to Sergeant, but perhaps WO and up could wear a miniature of the piped badge above the ribbon bar?

What this does is show at  a glance that a guy has been in combat, or actual operations, as an infantryman, say.  Currently, a soldier wearing the infantry trades badge and the UNPROFOR medal could likely have earned his medal as a clerk in Italy, or a cook in a Yugoslavian headquarters, and remustered to the infantry afterwards.

Just a dumb suggestion, but surely something could be done.  The Americans had a big problem with introducing the Combat Infantry Badge because initially the combat medics -attached directly to rifle companies in WW II - were not eligible for them, despite putting their lives at risk as much as, or more, than the infantrymen.

There is still the problem of criteria, I realize - ie how do you quantify how much a person has been shot at, etc., but I don‘t suppose that matters much.  The difference between the infantryman in Afghanistan - carrying his rucksack up and down the hills - and the seaman doing equally important work for 8 hours a day in a climate controlled ship - isn‘t recognized currently by the medal or even the trades badge.

Thrown out for discussion knowning full well some may hate it.  That‘s ok, but let‘s hear some other suggestions in that case.
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Offline Another Recce Guy

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Military pushes for & gets overhaul of medal system for overseas service
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2009, 21:27:29 »
The Canadian Press
 
Updated: Tue. Aug. 11 2009 6:49 AM ET

OTTAWA — The military is recommending an overhaul of its medal system to address a growing number of complaints that have overshadowed the glittering honours awarded to troops who serve overseas.

National Defence has conducted a "sweeping review" and put forward recommendations for the federal cabinet which are expected to include the creation of a single medal to recognize all overseas service, The Canadian Press has learned.

The military's senior policy adviser on medals and citations said the proposals are meant to simplify a system that has become "complicated" by different deployments, under different mandates.

The confusion and lack of recognition for some soldiers has led to bitterness and the occasional letter of protest from members and their families.

"We've done a major review that will have significant consequences in the way we recognize our people," said Maj. Carl Gauthier, who is in charge of creating new medals and modifying the rules for existing ones.

"We're going to make some recommendations to try (to) simplify the recognition framework for Afghanistan."

Defence sources say one of the key proposals is the creation of an overseas service medal, similar to the Volunteer Service Medal given out to Canadian soldiers who served at least 18 months away from home during the Second World War.

Gauthier would not talk about specific recommendations, but said the Defence Department has heard the complaints of soldiers, sailors and aircrew whose missions are not covered by the existing set of awards, such as the General Campaign Star and the Southwest Asia Service Medal.

Some troops also want recognition of multiple tours -- an important acknowledgment for men and women who have been faced with up to four six-month stint in Kandahar in less than 10 years.

"There are still gaps in the way we recognize service overseas that we are trying to address," said Gauthier.

Who gets recognized and under what circumstances is often the subject of intense, emotional debate among those uniform, who sometimes complain the regulations governing awards arbitrary and political.

Hundreds of soldiers who were part of the first battle group into Kandahar at the beginning of the latest mission in 2006 were denied a long-promised campaign star medal because they did not serve enough time under NATO command.

Instead, members of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry battle group -- who spent most of their tour under U.S. command in Operation Enduring Freedom -- were awarded the Southwest Asia Service Medal.

An outside observer may not see much difference between the two medals, but front-line soldiers tend to covet the campaign star, which with its International Security Force (ISAF) bar.

It is recognition that they've been in Afghanistan facing a hostile enemy, unlike the Southwest Asia medal which is also awarded to shipboard crews and headquarters staff who've served at posts as far removed as the U.S. Central Command in Tampa, Fla.

Unlike the United States and Britain, Canada has no specific service recognition for combat soldiers. There are bravery medals for specific acts of heroism, including the newly minted Canadian Victoria Cross.

Former chief of defence staff Gen. Rick Hillier aimed to change that with the creation of a combat infantry badge, but the plan was quietly dropped last spring.

It is not the first controversy over military medals.

The Conservative government launched, with much fanfare, the Sacrifice Medal, which was meant to recognize those wounded and killed in combat. But the first ceremony was postponed indefinitely because the award only recognized soldiers who'd fought in Afghanistan and not on sometimes perilous peacekeeping missions.

Gauthier was not swayed on the question of awarding Princess Patricia's troops a campaign star.

"When we're in the business of medal design and medals criteria, we're in the business of drawing lines. You either qualify or you don't. We have to balance recognition for recognition for people and also the respect and integrity for the honour system. For the medals to be worth something, we have to make sure the criteria is clear, that is applied consistently and fairly for everyone."

The changes to be considered by cabinet and eventually the Governor General would not be retroactive, nor affect medals already handed out.

"We will not rewrite history. We are not going to try to untangle the past. We're going to try to make the future simpler,"Gauthier said.
How will you answer your grandchildren when they what you did in the war?

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Offline MCG

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Re: Military pushes overhaul of medal system
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2009, 06:44:41 »
I've seen a simplified version of the proposal.  I like it, and it should satisfy most.

Offline Dennis Ruhl

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Re: Military pushes overhaul of medal system
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2009, 22:23:03 »
My father and most other overseas WWII veterans received 4 medals for essentially the same thing while many received 5 and those who were also in Italy often received 6.  In WWI they received 2 (or 3 if they joined in 1914 or 1915.)  In Korea they received 2 and whined and got 3.  I think lots of medals are appropriate for wars.  1 campaign medal would be the least for a war in about 107 years.

What bothered me were the gimme medals such as centennial, jubilee, etc medals that had no apparent criteria.

The CD is a good medal.  A Special Service Medal with an Alert bar - we're not too sure.  At least we don't give one for excelling in basic training unlike our neighbor.

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Offline X-mo-1979

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Re: Military pushes overhaul of medal system
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2009, 22:32:43 »
I've seen a simplified version of the proposal.  I like it, and it should satisfy most.

Care to elaborate?Is there a different medal for combat troops or one simple medal across the board with a bunch of bars?

very interested.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Military pushes overhaul of medal system
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2009, 22:43:00 »
What bothered me were the gimme medals such as centennial, jubilee, etc medals that had no apparent criteria.

The CD is a good medal.  A Special Service Medal with an Alert bar - we're not too sure.  At least we don't give one for excelling in basic training unlike our neighbor.

Obviously you haven't done any research.  There are criteria for all of the above medals.  Just because you may not know about them, or disagree with them, doesn't mean that some sort of criteria wasn't set.

Here are some of the points you may have missed:

Canadian Honours System

Canadian Orders, Medals and Decorations

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Offline MCG

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Re: Military pushes overhaul of medal system
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2009, 23:15:18 »
Care to elaborate?Is there a different medal for combat troops or one simple medal across the board with a bunch of bars?
Don't want to elaborate too much.  Mostly because I don't want to misrepresent the plan based on the simplified version I saw.  GSM & GCS will still exist, but imagine a system more like UN tours where there was only one medal but unique campaign ribbons.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Military pushes overhaul of medal system
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2009, 23:36:16 »
My father and most other overseas WWII veterans received 4 medals for essentially the same thing while many received 5 and those who were also in Italy often received 6.  In WWI they received 2 (or 3 if they joined in 1914 or 1915.)  In Korea they received 2 and whined and got 3.  I think lots of medals are appropriate for wars.  1 campaign medal would be the least for a war in about 107 years.

What bothered me were the gimme medals such as centennial, jubilee, etc medals that had no apparent criteria.

The CD is a good medal.  A Special Service Medal with an Alert bar - we're not too sure.  At least we don't give one for excelling in basic training unlike our neighbor.

In addition to George's comments about each medal having established criteria and that your perception of medals awarded for "essentially the same thing" is misleading, you are also incorrect about the United States awarding a medal for basic training.

The US has a very different award structure to our own, which includes both medal awards and "ribbon only" recognition.  The Army Service Ribbon is awarded for completing of basic training - it does not have an associated medal.


Edited to add, for reference on Second World War medals:

Canadian Army Routine Orders, 16th August, 1946
6719 --- CAMPAIGN STARS, CLASPS, THE DEFENCE MEDAL AND THE WAR MEDAL 1939-45

Of specific note:

Quote
Service qualifying for one of the Stars cannot run concurrently with service qualifying for another of the Stars.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 00:17:12 by Michael O'Leary »

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Re: Military pushes overhaul of medal system
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2009, 01:48:40 »
My father and most other overseas WWII veterans received 4 medals for essentially the same thing while many received 5 and those who were also in Italy often received 6.  In WWI they received 2 (or 3 if they joined in 1914 or 1915.)  In Korea they received 2 and whined and got 3.  I think lots of medals are appropriate for wars.  1 campaign medal would be the least for a war in about 107 years.

What bothered me were the gimme medals such as centennial, jubilee, etc medals that had no apparent criteria.

The CD is a good medal.  A Special Service Medal with an Alert bar - we're not too sure.  At least we don't give one for excelling in basic training unlike our neighbor.
And I'm guessing these opinions of yours are based on your long years of service and personal experience?  By the bye, how does one retire as a 2Lt?  I thought 23 years as Cpl was bad, but that's the epitome of under achievement.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 01:54:52 by recceguy »
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Re: Military pushes overhaul of medal system
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2009, 05:07:14 »
And I'm guessing these opinions of yours are based on your long years of service and personal experience?  By the bye, how does one retire as a 2Lt?  I thought 23 years as Cpl was bad, but that's the epitome of under achievement.
Actually, I'll disagree on the one point of the 23 year Cpl ("Career Corporal", or "CFL-Corporal for Life").  I have a minimum of 4 CFLs in my company.  Without them and their extensive knowledge and strong work ethic, the company would have a very difficult time to recover.  Their PERs reflect strong grades in performance, although their potential for promotion is low. 

Having said that, 2Lts do not receive PERs, it being a probationary rank and all.

Edited to fix spelling error
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 08:29:31 by Technoviking »

Offline Jammer

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Re: Military pushes overhaul of medal system
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2009, 07:35:06 »
"Retired" 2Lt in Armoured Reserve = EPIC FAIL.

What could possibly go wrong?

Offline MCG

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Re: Military pushes overhaul of medal system
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2009, 07:50:57 »
All right, lets move on from the ad hominem.

Offline Dennis Ruhl

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Re: Military pushes overhaul of medal system
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2009, 13:22:58 »
"Retired" 2Lt in Armoured Reserve = EPIC FAIL.

It's called a career move.  If I lived anywhere other than Northern Alberta with its 3 armouries  in 2 cities for 1 3/4 million people there probably would have been a militia unit to parade with.  I simply state that I was a 2Lt because it is a fact not because I equate it to being a general.
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Offline Dennis Ruhl

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Re: Military pushes overhaul of medal system
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2009, 13:35:47 »
Obviously you haven't done any research.  There are criteria for all of the above medals.  Just because you may not know about them, or disagree with them, doesn't mean that some sort of criteria wasn't set.

Here are some of the points you may have missed:

Canadian Honours System

Canadian Orders, Medals and Decorations

The commemorative medals were all political and nothing more.  The most generous criteria was "The Medal was awarded to Canadians who have made outstanding and exemplary contributions to their communities or to Canada as a whole."  Hardly objective criteria.  A lot of political hacks and grandmothers that did good knitting got them.
"
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Offline Dennis Ruhl

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Re: Military pushes overhaul of medal system
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2009, 13:43:49 »
In addition to George's comments about each medal having established criteria and that your perception of medals awarded for "essentially the same thing" is misleading,

He got 4 medals for going to war.

They all have separate criteria but with only odd exceptions, everyone who went to war got 4, 5, or 6 medals.  Those who did not go to war but spent over 30 days in the military got at least one.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Military pushes overhaul of medal system
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2009, 13:46:15 »
He got 4 medals for going to war.

They all have separate criteria but with only odd exceptions, everyone who went to war got 4, 5, or 6 medals.  Those who did not go to war but spent over 30 days in the military got at least one.

 ???

Your point?
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