Poll

Do you think that cadets should be alowed to wear their  family's war medals, ie. from WW1 and WW2?

Yes
42 (14%)
No
251 (83.9%)
No room on uniform.
6 (2%)

Total Members Voted: 281

Author Topic: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread  (Read 55699 times)

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Offline Pusser

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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #275 on: October 31, 2011, 20:10:12 »
So tell me Pusser.  Do you own any clothing that has any sort of markings on them?  A favorite sports team perhaps?  Or anything else that you have not personally participated in, been to or own?  If so, by your logic why the hell would you wear anything other than a plain shirt or sheet for that matter?  Surely you aren't craving attention or wanting your clothes to scream "look at me, look at me"?.  Other than your obviously Pusser uniform, life rather plain if you stick to your principals of no supporting anything.  Perhaps if we had a Remembrance Day for professors and academia you might feel moved to bring your Father's mortar to the ceremony if he had passed on and you were close to him.

Actually, I have many golf shirts, jackets, sweatshirts, T-shirts etc, that have logos or crests on them.  However, all the sports ones are for teams that I have either played for or coached.  The military ones are for units with which I have served or worked.  In fact, my wife says I have too many and I need to get rid of some.   ;D  The only ones with which I do not have a strong connection belong to my collection of Cows (TM) T-shirts.  My only association with whimsical cows is that I like their ice cream.

There is no need to get pi$$y about this.  All I'm saying is that I don't understand why people want to wear their ancestors medals, but don't seem to want to honour their ancestors for other things in a similar manner.  It's interesting to note that this is a relatively new phenomenon.  Let's not forget that veterans and serving military personnel were ignored and even scorned in this country for many years.  Where were the descendants wanting to wear their ancestors' medals then?  Did they not honour them before?  Now that it's cool to be military, I can't help but think that some folks are trying to live vicariously through their ancestors. I'm not about to go around crushing the spirit of ten year old girls or interrogating anyone with suspicious racks, but that doesn't mean I have to approve of the practice either (and frankly, I think the Brits and the Aussies have it wrong on this issue).  I'm happy with the way things are, although I think making it a criminal offence is a bit much. 

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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #276 on: November 01, 2011, 09:58:38 »
Yet, I have never had the urge to honour him by wearing his academic robes
It's surely one of the signs of the impending apocalypse that I agree with Pusser.   :-[

Do you own any clothing that has any sort of markings on them?  A favorite sports team perhaps?
If you'd wished to make a logical connection, rather than reductio ad absurdum, your analogy would have him wearing a Stanley Cup ring rather than simply a hockey team's t-shirt.

.... very complex matter.
Only if one insists on making it one, otherwise it reduces to "if you didn't earn it, you don't wear it"; hardly complex in my mind.



However, please continue...

                :argument:
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #277 on: November 01, 2011, 11:30:42 »
It's surely one of the signs of the impending apocalypse that I agree with Pusser.   :-[

Now now.  No need for a sad smiley(?).  Both greater and lesser men than you have been known to agree with me.   ;D
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Offline wildman0101

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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #278 on: November 01, 2011, 19:23:00 »
No. PERIOD. Under the criminal code of  Canada you can be charged for this. If you want that code
changed do what you have to to get it changed. Those medal's were earned through blood, sweat
and many many tear's. No disrespect to the people/person's,,family who would. What would people
think if I wore the 13 medal's my grandfather  earned during the Boer war,1st world war,,,2nd world
war If Iwore them... They would get the impression I earned them which would be disrespectful.
Shadowbox come's to mind. Last Nov 11 I seen a lil lad wearing a miniature 3 belonging to his grand-
father... Looked cute and nice BUT. So you can rag on me all you want but No. Would you like someone
else wearing your medal's giving the impresision that they were the recipient of said medal's.
Just my thought's. Rant Off. Cheer's and best regard's... Scoty B... See you on parade.
scoty b (aka the brat)
so my sister say's
she would know as she
pointed out ,,,, quote
my lil brother is one bad "mo-fo"
dont f*** with him you'll just get hurt.

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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #279 on: November 01, 2011, 20:41:49 »
Do I support the current approach? Yes - because I believe in the rule of law. Do I think that it could/should be changed? Yes - there's enough specific stipulations that could be applied to keep things honest ie: mounted with a black ribbon etc. There will always be enough vigilant vets to keep the Walts at bay.

We have to bear in mind that the reason for the law no longer exists, and that change to meet new circumstances should be considered. Until these changes are made, I will continue to accept the current approach while recognizing that it is flawed.
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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #280 on: November 01, 2011, 21:15:49 »
...the reason for the law no longer exists...
Could you expand on this?
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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #281 on: November 01, 2011, 23:30:45 »
Could you expand on this?

The law as it stands was introduced to counter the large numbers of fraudulent benefit applications following WW1. Given the level of record keeping today versus then, this law can withstand modification without dilution.
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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #282 on: November 02, 2011, 13:28:43 »
Thanks. Yet one more thing I didn't know before.  :)
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Offline FormerHorseGuard

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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #283 on: November 03, 2011, 20:05:28 »
I wanted to say  I dislike t shirts with logos, I dislike sport t shirt, uniform shirts with team logos etc.  If you want me to wear a logo pay  me to wear it.

 I do not see how this is the same as wearing some one else medals out of respect or a private way of remembering a familiy  member. I have my  grand father's medals WW II vet, North Africa Star 2nd Clasp, Burma Star, I forget his other star  CD with Clasp,   and served till he retired in 1969 with various UN operation medals,  I have my  great grandfather's medals from WW I and WW II,  and his only  sons medals ( so great  uncle) who died in a training flgiht in a bomber over Scotland ( buried near RAF Kincloss). Out of respect for them I would never consider putting on their medals and parading around any  day  let alone 11th November. Their medals are in the boxes they were awarded in and stored. Some day  I want to do a shadow box to honour my  mom's family and their military life. I want to get a hold of the other other great  grandfather 's medal and put his Military  Medal on display .
Honour your loved one memories by  displaying the medals in a place of honour not on your person. They  deserve that, not to be used to draw attention to yourself.


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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #284 on: November 04, 2011, 03:43:00 »
The law as it stands was introduced to counter the large numbers of fraudulent benefit applications following WW1. Given the level of record keeping today versus then, this law can withstand modification without dilution.
How would that work?  Do they show up and say "yep, this is my medal"?
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #285 on: November 04, 2011, 08:02:19 »
How would that work?  Do they show up and say "yep, this is my medal"?

In an era where checking someone's background was neither simple nor quick, and a man was taken at his word, it was easy for the dishonorable to misrepresent themselves as returned soldiers. They might choose to do this if an employer was offering new jobs to returned soldiers or to get undeserved veterans' benefits. Even the naming on medals could be explained as having served under a false name or lost medals having been replaced by a pair acquired from a pawnbroker, etc. The law also extended to the lapel pin War Service Badges.

Here is the reverse of a Class A War Service Badge.


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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #286 on: November 04, 2011, 11:13:48 »
Thanks. Yet one more thing I didn't know before.  :)

What he said, thanks.
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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #287 on: November 04, 2011, 16:22:00 »
Context is a wonderful thing. The first few posts, and articles leave the impression that the Government is being mean spirited. Once you understand the rationale, the situation becomes more clear. I still maintain however that the law needs modernization. I don't support scrapping it altogether. That would just encourage the Walts as there would be no legal method of dealing with the chronics. Perhaps some contact with my MP is in order.
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #288 on: November 04, 2011, 17:55:30 »
Context is a wonderful thing. The first few posts, and articles leave the impression that the Government is being mean spirited. Once you understand the rationale, the situation becomes more clear. I still maintain however that the law needs modernization. I don't support scrapping it altogether. That would just encourage the Walts as there would be no legal method of dealing with the chronics. Perhaps some contact with my MP is in order.

Agree.

For many, this issue seems to fit into a (perhaps very Canadian) mindset of "if it is not specifically permitted, then it is prohibited".  There has been reference to this practice being common (and allowed) in other Commonwealth countries (specifically United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand), with the assumption that their legislation permits it.  That would not be entirely correct.  Only one of those countries (Australia) permits the practice of wearing an ancestor's medal by the "letter of the law".  The UK and NZ is like Canada in that their laws specifically limit the wear of medals to only those who were awarded them, but they "accept" the custom of wearing an ancestor's medals on the right breast on special days of remembrance.

I went into more detail in a previous post on this thread about three years ago.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,25589.msg790796.html#msg790796
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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #289 on: November 09, 2011, 08:35:30 »
Veterans groups differ on law banning wearing of war medals

With Remembrance Day on the horizon, Canadians are looking to express appreciation for the country’s veterans, perhaps hoping to don war medals earned by their deceased relatives.

But last week, many Canadians learned that a little-known law actually forbids that gesture of respect and commemoration.

Article 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada prohibits “the wearing of orders, decorations and medals by anyone other than the individual who was awarded the honour.”

Jeff Rose-Martland, executive director of the Canadian veterans group Our Duty, says his constituency generally opposes the idea of people wearing the medal of a living veteran.

“But when it comes to deceased veterans, it’s been pretty universal, amongst the veterans I’ve spoken with, that yes, a family member should be able to wear them to show remembrance and respect,” he says.

The law came to light after Our Duty announced a campaign called Veterans Among Us, which sought to raise awareness of Canada’s 800,000 veterans.

While fielding questions about war medals, Our Duty learned of the 91-year-old statute prohibiting someone else from wearing of medals received by living or dead veterans. The organization promptly issued a release advising its constituents not to wear the medals of family members, as the act would be a criminal offence.

Introduced in 1920, the statute was largely intended to deter people from impersonating returning war veterans, who were entitled to benefits and incentives (like jobs) in the years after service. The statute does not set out a specific penalty, but for summary conviction offences, the penalty is a maximum of six months imprisonment or a $5,000 fine or both.

More at link
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Offline 0tto Destruct

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Veterans groups differ on law banning wearing of war medals
« Reply #290 on: November 09, 2011, 08:36:37 »
If the member was deceased and the medals were worn on the right side, I'm not sure where I see the harm with this. As the article states below, the UK and Australia practice this (while maintaining the wearing of unearned decorations on the left side as a criminal offence).

The way I see it, my medals weren't earned by me alone. There are a whole group of people (some of whom will never wear a uniform) that are an integral part of my military career, friends and family both. Once I'm dead and gone, will my ghost be offended by a relative wearing my gongs to honour my memory? Nope, though there are a few of the more distant/crazier ones I wouldn't want to see have them, I admit.

I think the Brits and Aussies have struck a good balance, and I don't see why we can't do the same thing.


From: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/10/31/f-war-medals.html?cmp=rss

With Remembrance Day on the horizon, Canadians are looking to express appreciation for the country’s veterans, perhaps hoping to don war medals earned by their deceased relatives.

But last week, many Canadians learned that a little-known law actually forbids that gesture of respect and commemoration.

Article 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada prohibits “the wearing of orders, decorations and medals by anyone other than the individual who was awarded the honour.”

Jeff Rose-Martland, executive director of the Canadian veterans group Our Duty, says his constituency generally opposes the idea of people wearing the medal of a living veteran.

“But when it comes to deceased veterans, it’s been pretty universal, amongst the veterans I’ve spoken with, that yes, a family member should be able to wear them to show remembrance and respect,” he says.

The law came to light after Our Duty announced a campaign called Veterans Among Us, which sought to raise awareness of Canada’s 800,000 veterans.

While fielding questions about war medals, Our Duty learned of the 91-year-old statute prohibiting someone else from wearing of medals received by living or dead veterans. The organization promptly issued a release advising its constituents not to wear the medals of family members, as the act would be a criminal offence.

Introduced in 1920, the statute was largely intended to deter people from impersonating returning war veterans, who were entitled to benefits and incentives (like jobs) in the years after service. The statute does not set out a specific penalty, but for summary conviction offences, the penalty is a maximum of six months imprisonment or a $5,000 fine or both.

Commonwealth nations like Great Britain and Australia have similar restrictions on wearing the medals of a living veteran — the consequences are fines or up to six months in jail. But both countries relax the law if the veteran is deceased, with the proviso that relatives wear the medals on the right side of the body; this distinguishes them from the original soldier, who would have worn medals on the left.

“That shows that they’re not your medals,” says Rose-Martland. “You’re wearing them on behalf of somebody else.”

Our Duty would like to have the Canadian law amended. Over the last few decades, there have been backbench motions to change the statute, but they were quickly voted down.

Rose-Martland says there is resistance from groups like the Royal Canadian Legion, Canada’s largest veterans group, which has more than 500,000 members.

The legion denies this.

“I don’t know where somebody got the idea that we’re against [people wearing their relatives’ war medals] – all we’re doing is obeying the law,” says Bob Butt, director of communications for the Dominion Command of the Royal Canadian Legion.

“Until we get a resolution through the [legion’s internal] resolution process that passes dominion convention, the legion is not mandated to do anything about the law. Until we’re mandated, we don’t take any action.”

The number of people who are actually prosecuted for this offence is exceedingly low.

According to Justice Canada, there were no charges for 2009-10, the last year for which it has statistical data. In 2008-09, there were four charges, all of which were eventually stayed or withdrawn; in 2007-08, there were eight charges, two of which led to convictions and six either stayed or withdrawn.

“Although it is unlikely a widow would be charged with an offence for wearing her late husband’s medals, it is up to provincial Crowns to make decisions about charges,” Carole Saindon, a media relations officer at the Canadian Department of Justice, said in an email. “Such determinations require consideration of whether this would be in the public interest.”

Rose-Martland says he doesn’t personally know of anyone who has been punished for this offence, but he has heard from families that have been reprimanded by other veterans.

“I have spoken to civilians who have worn the medals at remembrance ceremonies and so on, and they’ve gotten grief from people present who were legion members, and were told basically to take [the medals] off or complaints would be filed with the nearest police force,” he says.

Ultimately, Rose-Martland is concerned that this old law stands in the way of giving veterans their proper due.

“We’re coming up on a hundred years past the end of World War I. We don’t have any Great War veterans left, the World War II veterans are passing, and within a few years we’re going to have a large amount of medals that were awarded to Canadians, including the Victoria Cross, that no one can display,” he says.

“When the family members can’t display them, they sit in people’s houses, and nobody gets to see them and gets to learn that aspect of our history.”
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Re: Veterans groups differ on law banning wearing of war medals
« Reply #291 on: November 09, 2011, 08:57:04 »
There's already a couple of threads going on this one, so I'll be merging them all over at "Military History" shortly.

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Re: Veterans groups differ on law banning wearing of war medals
« Reply #292 on: November 09, 2011, 12:19:40 »
There's already a couple of threads going on this one, so I'll be merging them all over at "Military History" shortly.

Milnet.ca Staff

Thanks for merging my post in with the others. I didn't see that Moe posted the same article at about the same time I did.

I'll check more closely before I post next time.

Cheers!
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Re: Veterans groups differ on law banning wearing of war medals
« Reply #293 on: November 09, 2011, 12:56:37 »
Thanks for merging my post in with the others. I didn't see that Moe posted the same article at about the same time I did.

I'll check more closely before I post next time.

Cheers!
No worries - there was more than one thread brought together here.
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Re: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread
« Reply #294 on: December 30, 2011, 20:21:56 »
Shadow Box come's to mind. Cheer's Scoty B
Until the law is changed I would have no prob's
with someome wear said relative's Medal's on
the right... Appropraitly displayed.  :salute:
scoty b (aka the brat)
so my sister say's
she would know as she
pointed out ,,,, quote
my lil brother is one bad "mo-fo"
dont f*** with him you'll just get hurt.