Topic: Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread

[Carcharodon Carcharias]

I well remember one woman pointing out someone wearing a WW2 and Korea set on the right side at a service in Vancouver, and saying to me, "That fellow certainly has a lot of medals for someone so young."  

It might be the norm down under, but it is not the way in Canada.        The problem I have, and it is likely less a problem in Australia, is that the perception can be that those medals were earned by the wearer.

Your first quote - My answer is simple. Education (through the Legion - add in the Legion magazine for example or local papers, Legion websites etc, Regimental Associations too). It aint that hard. Regulate it, be positive.

Information passed on through the appropiate channels on wearing them on the RIGHT for remberance, just for ONE day a year. 11 Nov. Thats not asking too much is it. That woman was clueless in the first place as the majority of civilians are in the wearing of medals.

Your second   quote - Whats diferent between us and Canada is attitude towards Defence and some minor cultural differences. BCW war medals are medals WW1, WW2, Korea etc.  

Example if I saw anyone under the age of 80 yrs old wearing WW2 medals on the left, that would be suspicious, same goes with a 40yr old wearing Viet Nam service medals. Seeing a 30yr old woman wearing VietNam medals on the right on ANZAC Day, well thats obvious. So I don't buy your second quote for a second. Sorry, thats pretty limp.

You won't support such a lawful decision in the first place, so your opinion is biased at the get go. I do respect that however, and thats just how you think, and thats fair.

I think its sad that the government will not come   'on line' with this, but I do beleive with enough public pressure that things can change. There was a time not too long ago it was the same here, but in the light of our vets dying off, the act was changed to preserve their service by commorating them through the wearing on their medals on the right on ANZAC Day, and there is NOT one thing wrong with that.

For those that want an ammendment, please contact your local MP and get as many as you can to do the same. Use Australia as a base example.

Cheers,

Wes

[the 48th regulator]

We worry about misinterpretation, and people posing as something they are not, so therefore hide the medals of Fathers, uncles, grandfathers, at home.  

Hmmm what a great way to honor those who earned them.   Once Again, thank you Wes.....You are convincing me to move to Australia with every post (not too mention the warm weather, but not at those housing prices....)

redleafjumper;

So you just let the woman leave eh?   Why did you not stop her an ask for to stay.   You seem to assume that she wanted to be a war vet?   You know discussion, as I said in my previous post, encourages the civvy, and military minded people to get to know our History.   Don't we bash our nation for being so ignorant??  

tess

That's it for me I don't want to get fired up today...

[redleafjumper]

48th Regulator, without going into the specific details, the person was known to me, she was trying to pretend to be something she wasn't, and when confronted she fled.  Appropriate action was taken, and to my knowledge the posing hasn't been repeated.   

While sympathetic to the intent of Wes's points, I am still unconvinced by the arguments presented for wearing the medals of others.  Like I said earlier, wear a poppy, not their medals. 

[Michael Dorosh]

I agree with redleafjumper.  However, when we opened a permanent exhibit at our regimental museum devoted to the Japanese-Canadians who served in our unit in the First World War, at least one descendant was present - in a suit and tie - wearing his predecessor's MM and service ribbons on the right side.  At the time, I thought it appropriate, if not a little odd.  I had heard of the practice, but never seen it done.

If we did revive such a practice in Canada, there should be the proviso that not only would it only be done on Rememberance Day (as Wes points out), but also only in civilian clothes.  I don't think uniformed personnel (or even those in the "uniform" of the Royal Canadian Legion, consisiting of headdress and blazer) should be permitted to do this.  I would include cadets, policemen, fireman and any others in an official uniform in such a ban, lest they be mistaken for their own medals.

[Carcharodon Carcharias]

In due process over time I believe the Canadian governemt will change its presidence in this matter. Should the decision be made for 'civilian clothes only' as CPL Doresh suggests, fair enough, as thats the first step in the right direction, and we can call that comprimise.

As for Redleaf, he won't budge period, and thats his opinion although I disagree 100%. I find his refusing to see things through a little different completly unrefreshing and very sad.

As I stated in the previous post, those who feel strongly about an ammendement should send in writing to their MP and maybe Vets Affairs, Legion Command HQ, and for those who are members of Associations to their presidents, etc.

Meanwhile in Australia, relatives will continue to honour their Dads, Grandfathers, Brothers, Sons and Uncles (and the female equivilant) in this fine tradition of honour and remberance (without hinderance or harassment with their medals, poppies, and springs of Rosemary on the RIGHT) for ANZAC Days to come.

Not everyone has to do this, its optional, and many don't but at least othesr can if they want too. Thats called freedom and respect. The ANZAC tradition has indeed been passed to the next generation of Australians with complete success.

Again write your MPs.


Cheers,

Wes

[the 48th regulator]

redleafjumper,

Right on good on ya, I hope you sorted her out then.   Use the red poppy to remember...ok will do..

MD,

Only in civvies, as long as they have their Right foot up in the air, 6 inches from the ground.   Left foot must be encased in a red and white sock, where upon the right arm wrapped in a time observing device made in Canada, but not stamped as such....Head bearing cover only material approved of by set group appointed by the government and members of the "War museum for life" club...

dang it folks....it's about remembering not posing, I hope my grand kids pins my gongs on his/her chest one day!!   At least they will know who earned them and for what country....

oh well.   Wes save a seat at the legion in Sydney...oh ya yer moving...well give me the direction to the new place...

tess

[rmc_wannabe]

I've heard of some people that just wear the undress ribbons, or failing that, just wearing the medals under their tunic. Is this not also a possible solution, because a) the medals are not shown to the public, thus tailing off any public misconception
                               
                                 b)the person wearing them still has the memory of the person that serves.

                                 c)the person wearing the medals is not liable to face charges for wearing decorations not earned


The only problem with this is that the medals are not on display thus allowing others to learn about the medas. What do you think about this 

[Still In Sarajevo]

As far as I know, and I'm not certain about the cadets, you can wear immediate family medals on the right side of your tunic for rememberance day parades only.

[redleafjumper]

Kings Town Jimmy,
You really should have a look at the earlier posts as they make it clear that in Canada it is not legal to wear anyone else's medals, ribbons or other awards at anytime.  Not on the right on Remembrance Day nor anywhere else at anytime.  See the Canadian Criminal Code section referred to earlier, please.

[gunner56]

I have my dad's medals(WWII War Medal,CVSM w/Overseas Bar).I'm very proud of his service(RCAF).However,I didn't earn 'em,I won't wear 'em.

[Leviathan]

Wes, thank-you for saying so clearly what I only wish I could voice so well.
Our opinions on this matter are matched to an amazingly close degree.
There is little that I can add except my complete support for Wes' viewpoint...

It should be a matter of personal choice AND respect.
Not self-glorification and attention.
As long is it is clear that you are honouring ANOTHER's sacrifice, I see no problem.

It would also be a good idea to know how the medal was earned, but not necessarily a requirement.
Merely knowing that the Medal is a recognition of the inner-character of the person you are honouring.
This requires a definition of what the medal represents:
After all, A true medal is awarded for the character and nobleness that the individual possesses/possessed, not for the physical act.
The Physical act is merely a demonstration of the element of character for which the medal was awarded.
A Medal does not say "Once upon a time, I was brave/valorous/courageous.â ?
A Medal says â Å“I AM brave/valorous/courageousâ ?
A winner of the Victoria Cross, for example, does not earn it for storming a trench or rescuing a comrade under fire.
It is recognition of the Valour which is inherent in the individual at all times.

As for the law itself:
IMHO, this law is akin to the many other laws that exist of an obsolete and seldom enforced nature.
For example, the ones that say it is illegal to whistle in an elevator in some obscure town, or to ride an ostrich down main street, etc., etc.

The unfortunate thing is that a change to the Canadian Criminal Code requires literally an act of Congress (Well, Parliament anyways... )
And we all know the cost-efficiency that such a procedure entails... *sigh*

It seems likely to me that this law will be among the countless other obsolete and senseless laws until public pressure justifies the expenditure of the necessary resources to affect an official change.

Until then, I will rest assured that those who HONESTLY choose to HONOR the memory of relatives in this way will likely go unchallenged (By Law or Otherwise.).

And any challenges that do come will be from those who are too ignorant to respect the personal choices of those who wish to honour their heritage and ancestry in a way that seems fit to them.

[Carcharodon Carcharias]

Write your MP, Vets Affairs, Legion, and any Associations, and use Australia as an example. Also there may be other BCW countries doing the same as us.

Hope this helps you out.

Cheers,

Wes

[-Hutch-]

i know writing your MP is a good idea, but i am not sure if it woiuold do any good. remember what political party in power right now. the Liberals, they do not do anything to help in remembering our vets or helping with the military. (not that i want to turn this into a anti liberal board)

[the 48th regulator]

ah man not that bilge again.

yep hutch yer right lets not send this thread on another well trodden tangent.

I am sure it'll cost no more than a few minutes of time and a psotage stamp.

I am writing one now, and following up with an e-mail

tess

[Aerobicrunner]

Military medals span generations
SOURCETAG  08121638110666
PUBLICATION:  The Ottawa Sun
DATE:  2008.12.16
EDITION:  Final
SECTION:  Editorial/Opinion
PAGE:  15
BYLINE:  PETER WORTHINGTON
WORD COUNT:  536

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Military medals span generations

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1855 the Duke of Newcastle, then Britain's Secretary for War, suggested "a new (military) decoration open to all ranks."

He felt it was neither "right nor politic" that heroic deeds should go unrewarded, and noted: "The value attached by soldiers to a little piece of ribbon is such as to render any danger insignificant and any privation light if it can be attained." Thus was born the Victoria Cross.

Canada came late to the medals game. Until relatively recently we mostly awarded British medals, but all that has changed. Canada now issues over 100 different medals, most of them service rather than gallantry awards.

Our newest is the Sacrifice Medal, awarded to those killed or wounded in action in Afghanistan (but not for accidental deaths). Nor do those killed or wounded in pre-2001 peacekeeping missions qualify -- though DND is expected to review this eligibility.

Some veterans, such as Cliff Chadderton, chairman of the National Council of Veteran Associations (56 organizations) points out that in past wars a gold wound stripe on the uniform sleeve was all the soldier got. Those killed got nothing.

The question of medals can be divisive -- especially the proposal that soldiers in Afghanistan who serve "outside the wire" should get a medal different from those who serve in (relative) safety.

DECEASED VETERANS

Another issue is what should happen to the medals of a deceased veteran? I received a message the other day from Marilyn Lincoln of Kitchener, wondering if it was illegal to wear her late father's Second World War medals at ceremonies such as Remembrance Day.

She wanted to honour her dad; he was proud of his wartime service.

She consulted Dave Davidson, past-president of the Korean Veterans Association (KVA). Dave told her that in Britain, Australia, New Zealand a close relative of a deceased soldier could wear the medals on the right chest, but in Canada only those who earned the medals had the right to wear them.

This is true, but it's also dumb and dogmatic.

Veterans Affairs Canada (VAC) is adamant: "Medals may only be worn by the veteran. It is a criminal offence to wear military medals that someone else has earned."

"I would never break the law," Ms. Lincoln says, but feels it honours both country and soldiers if a relative wears medals on the right chest. She has written the Royal Canadian Legion and seeks input how veterans feel about relatives wearing their medals on commemorative occasions.

"My father left his medals in my care and made it very clear he wanted to be remembered as a soldier, even though he was a fire captain for 30 years with the Toronto Fire Department.," says Ms. Lincoln. "My dad would be very, very proud if this tradition (of wearing medals on the right chest) were passed on from generation to generation."

Davidson is inclined to agree, but VAC and DND are silent.

WEAR THEM

My advice to the indomitable Ms. Lincoln is to go ahead and wear her father's Second World War medals on her right chest next Remembrance Day. It's inconceivable that anyone would object. If they did -- what a story for the media!

It's not widely realized that Canada has become a prolific distributor of medals. Excluding the First World War, the Second World War and Korea, Canada now authorizes well over 100 campaign and other medals. With a year or two of service, a soldier can be entitled to a chest full of medals; many Second World War vets, after six years of war, had only five campaign medals.

Canada should immediately approve close relatives wearing a deceased veteran's medals on the right chest at appropriate occasions. To do otherwise dishonours those who served.

[geo]

FWIW, I think that wearing em on the right, on Remembrance day, is the way to go....

[Michael O'Leary]

New Zealand Defence Force guidelines:

http://medals.nzdf.mil.nz/info/wearingmedals.html#family

Wearing of Medals by Family Members

Next-of-kin and other relatives of deceased servicemen and women have recently been authorised to wear their relative's medals on specific occasions and under certain circumstances. This applies to both military and civilian next-of-kin and other relatives of former New Zealand services personnel. Medals must be worn on the right breast rather than the left to differentiate between former servicemen and women and next-of-kin or other relatives. The wearing of a relative's medals is a matter of personal discretion and limited to days of remembrance. Only service medals and decorations mounted on a medal bar (full-size or miniature) can be worn by a relative; neck badges, sashes, sash badges, or breast stars cannot be worn. The occasions on which wearing of relatives medals is permitted are confined to ANZAC Day (25 April) and Remembrance Day (11 November). In addition, it may be appropriate for next-of-kin and other relatives to wear relative's medals on an occasion where either the relative's service or the unit in which they served is being commemorated.

Australian guidelines:

http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/honours/awards/wearing.cfm

Awards made to next-of-kin

A custom has evolved for people to wear the awards of deceased family members when marching in their place at commemorative events such as Anzac Day and Remembrance Day. The Returned and Services League (RSL) encourages people to wear their forebears medals on the right breast, which indicates the awards are not their own

[dapaterson]

Not a DND / VAC isue.  A Criminal Code of Canada issue.  Talk to Stockwell Day.

[HighlandIslander]

There's a thread beating this topic to death - http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,25589.0.html

Also, I'm trying to figure out how someone can earn "a full chest of medals" after a year or two - assuming he or she finishes BMQ, goes on to complete trade training, gets posted to a unit, does pre-deployment training and goes on tour, all within two years, the most you could be awarded would be (though I may have forgotten some) would include some medals that I don't think have been handed out together considering the nature of the tour:

Sacrifice medal
MMV/other valour decoration
Peacekeeping medal
UN tour/NATO tour medal

(Not trying to start a flame war by insinuating anything about peacekeeping missions)

[Michael O'Leary]

Also, I'm trying to figure out how someone can earn "a full chest of medals" after a year or two -

Not earn - "can be entitled to" - sematics perhaps, but very different.  He's saying that that soldier could earn any one (or perhaps a few of) a large number of operational, UN or other medals, etc., but certainly not all of them together.

[mainerjohnthomas]

It was the hope of my Grandfather (Grenadier Guards WWII), that my father (UN service  Belgian Congo) would finally march in the parade for Remembrance Day when I was in the service.  The hope was that we could have all three generations of living servicemen marching together.  My father was left quite bitter about the way Canada treated those who fought when we were supposedly at peace, and had never marched in the parade, although never failing to attend.

My Grandfather contracted pneumonia, and succumbed to a heart attack before I spent my first November 11 back on this coast where we could march together.  If it had been permitted, I would have liked to have at least worn his medals (off side), so that when my father marched in the parade with me, all three generations of Mainer servicemen would have been in the parade, by token if not in fact.

Now that I am safely retired, whichever of my daughters assists me in laying the Heathen Freehold wreath at the cenotaph does so with my grandfathers medals pinned on her Girl Guide sash.  It is clear that she wears them to honour my grandfather, and all of those like him who are not there to answer the calling of the role.

[TCBF]

...

Now that I am safely retired, whichever of my daughters assists me in laying the Heathen Freehold wreath at the cenotaph does so with my grandfathers medals pinned on her Girl Guide sash.  It is clear that she wears them to honour my grandfather, and all of those like him who are not there to answer the calling of the role.

- In Canadian context, by law and tradition, decorations are worn ONLY by the persons to which they were awarded.  No other.  No right chest, shoulder backs or bums.  There are good and sound reasons for this. 

- I would, if in an official capacity to do so, frog-march ANYONE away from a cenotaph on Nov 11 if I knew them to be wearing medals they were not awarded.  I wold also lay a complaint under the Revised Statutes of Canada, whether in an official capacity or not.  Want to see medals on your daughter's chest? Send her off to the local CFRC, we can use more good people.

[Harley Sailor]

I for one wear my father's metals on my CF uniform all year round.  The day I recieved my CD he gave me his and I had it mounted instead of mine.  It is with great pride that I wear his metals.  It also helps that I have earned some of the same ones he did.  When my daughter gets her's I hope she will mount mine.

[aussiechangover]

personally for me wearing of ancestors medals for remembrance day should be allowed. as pointed out by Wes if you wear them in the correct position on the right to show respect for a deceased family member there shouldn't`t be a problem. on the other hand, wear them on the left when they are not yours then you should be able to be prosecuted by the law. the only reason i believe this is because of coming from Australia and marching in parades with the young kids who are wearing the medals of their family. it can be quite a humbling experience especially when they are carrying a picture and they are more than happy to tell you about them from a kids point of view.

[geo]

... Remember, it also motivates the young 'uns to learn about what they 'da or 'pa did in the war... helps develop their understanding of what war is all about.

I look at all the new legionaires who have a chestful of medals on their right side & see no reason why anyone would give someone grief for wearing family heirlooms on Rememberance day

IMHO!