Topic: Steven Staples & Company

[toms3]

Read this one....whats next??

No need for military spending hike: Polaris
CTV News Staff

The Polaris Institute says it has completed a report that finds no reason to increase military spending in the next federal budget.

The report, called "Breaking Ranks: A Citizens' Review of Canada's Military Spending," says Canada already spends more than $12-billion a year on defence and should not increase that amount. Instead the Department of National Defence should spend defence dollars more wisely, the group says.

The group, which represents citizen groups, says that Canada?s military spending is already very high by international comparisons. The Defence Department's own figures show that Canada is the sixth largest military spender in NATO, and the 16th largest in the world when looking at actual dollars spent, Polaris says.

The Institute's Steven Staples says defence spending is being driven by a small, well-organized and well-funded defence lobby in Canada and the United States, while average Canadians want the federal government to focus on social programs ? not military spending.

Staples says any new money that may be earmarked for the military should be diverted to such programs as health care and education -- areas that a recent Compass poll found that most Canadians believe should be the government's top priority.

"More military spending would be throwing good money after bad. It would militarize our economy and undermine the real source of Canadians' security: our social programs," Staples says.

The report says there is plenty of evidence that the Defence Department mismanages the money it already receives. The Auditor General revealed the military wasted $174 million on a satellite communications system that has never been taken out of the box. The used submarines the Navy bought from the UK for $800 million have turned out to be lemons, and now the repair costs are climbing.

Parliamentary and Senate committees have stressed the need for more money to buy new military equipment and have recommended an additional $1.5 billion in funding per year over five years. The Romanow Commission on health care has recommended an infusion of $6.5 billion in extra funding per year. Polaris says the government's money would be best invested in health care.

"The government needs to keep the defence lobby's hands out of the cookie jar. Canadians know that our security comes through good social programs, a clean environment, and a positive role in the world - not through the barrel of a gun," Staples says.

The Polaris Institute is an organization that works with citizen activist groups "to unmask and challenge the corporate power that is the driving force behind governments concerning public policy making on economic, social and environmental issues."

[Freddy G]

Oh yeah, like terrorists will come here and say "Oh, they got good healthcare, let‘s forget Islam and just be good law-abiding citizens!"

...Don‘t you hate that kinda crap? And they spend, what, a billion on the gun law thing? Am I missing something?

But anyway, no need to preach to the choir, right?

[~RoKo~]

The group, which represents citizen groups, says that Canada’s military spending is already very high by international comparisons. The Defence Department‘s own figures show that Canada is the sixth largest military spender in NATO, and the 16th largest in the world when looking at actual dollars spent, Polaris says.  

Dang straight, we blow Luxenbourg out of the water!

I guess they forgot to realise that those coutries who spend less in total than us also have a much smaller landmass to protect.

[ObedientiaZelum]

"while average Canadians want the federal government to focus on social programs – not military spending."

i wonder if by average canadians they mean those of us who are patriotic, who have had relatives serve in WW1 and 2 or if they mean people who move here  from other countries and don‘t care 2 cents about the military as long as they have free health care.

[Anti Matter]

Sadly it seems that a large percentage of the people who decide what gets proper funding and what doesn‘t seem to have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time.  :confused:

[SpinDoc]

Careful there about the immigrants, because I happen to come from another country, plus I happen to like universal health care, AND I pay my taxes.  I don‘t necessarily value the military over health care and social spending -- I hope that doesn‘t make me a "non-patriot".

I am equally convinced that when "the majority" of Canadians prefer health care spending to military spending, it‘s "the majority" of ALL Canadians, whether they were born in another country or born here.

I‘m not going to take offense to the bit in question, but that comment bordered on racist in my books... which I hope the xenophobic view isn‘t tolerated (or shared) by this forum.

[~RoKo~]

Lots of pure many generation Canadians take more for granted than immigrants.

I was born here, but my parents were immigrants. My relatives didn‘t fight for Canada, they fought in the resistance. They always made a point of letting me know how good life is here in Canada, and that for damn sure is something I don‘t take for granted. It‘s one of the reasons I enlisted.

(And I‘ll add a little disclaimer, since the ‘net is often a poor way to convey emotions; I‘m not getting heated up or anything I‘m just pointing out my view)

[bossi]

Well, I don‘t mind getting heated up, on or off the Net.  If you wanna dance, then let‘s drop the gloves (oh, I forgot - not everybody will understand this obtuse reference to one of Canada‘s national sports ... so excuuuuuse me).

So, Spindoc - stay in your lane.  Enough said.

I actually agree with the point that many new Canadians appreciate things MORE than some long-time Canadians.  Basically, they‘ve come to Canada because it offers a better way of life than their homeland.  Thus, I get annoyed when long-time Canadians become complacent.

In fact, I‘ve felt huge amounts of national pride when I‘ve had the pleasure of talking to new recruits whose families were new to Canada - their pride in serving in the defence of their new country rubs off ...

I‘m not much of a historian, but it seems to me that Rome eventually fell when everybody was too fat and lazy to go defend Rome‘s frontiers ...

Thus, it‘s interesting that some countries eventually resorted to Foreign Legions to defend themselves.

Okay - gloves back on - let‘s get back to skating, shooting, and checking hard.  Shaibu!

[ObedientiaZelum]

If someone who lives in canada born or other wise is willing to defend it then i would gladly fight beside them. I consider them canadain and i would defend them to the last.
that being said
Canadians born in canada  or moved here but too shiftless  or self centered to lift a finger in it‘s defense are not true canadians in my mind. Canada is a country born from conflict. In world war two what was it, 1 in 10 canadians were involved in the military? It‘s who we are and were losing who we are because people think "well the US will just defend us, to ****  with the military lets have more free "things"

I hope i don‘t sound too harsh when i say this but the big R word doesn‘t scare me one bit. Theres religions who think im a devil because im white or because my country borders the US.Because i don‘t think it‘s cool to bomb innocent people. I‘m not sure how you got racist out of what i said. My comment was about "canadians" and people comming from other countries (maybe even americans or english) i never made a comment about skin colour or culture which in my opinion is what defines beingracist..  If i unintentionally hurt your feelings, well, sorry guy. But good for you for joining the canadian forces brother.

Canadians SHOULD hold the state of our military over the bennifits of health care. With out the military we would not have the pleasure of health care and without a military to defend our soverenty (sp?) we would lose our health care.  A la american annexing canada because we can‘t defend our land and thus making us pay for health care.

[SpinDoc]

I didn‘t take offense (as I said) and I‘m sure it wasn‘t intentional.  I don‘t like freeloaders just like any other red-blooded person.  I just thought the bit about "other countries" was superflous (and a bit broad in its stroke) in regards to your point, that‘s all.

Just to make this message relevant to the subject... the swords vs plowshires debate has been going on for centuries.  Swords are of course more desirable if your neighbours aren‘t particularly friendly (or if you don‘t want to be particularly friendly to your neighbours...)  Universal health care and social services will always seem expensive when one doesn‘t need to use it at any particular moment.  I guess it‘s sort of like car insurance -- we pay so much that we can practically buy a new car in a couple of years, and until that day that we crash our own vehicle, it‘ll seem like highway robbery.

[Excelsior]

Just adding my two cents...

I came to Canada about 11 years ago and never a day go by when I think I love this country. Part of reason why I signed up for CF.

BUT. I think I am a minority in that train of thought.
I know for fact that many immigrants don‘t really care for Canada. They came to Canada because it is a great country. But they also came here to do business and to grow their kids up. They‘d rather have health care than military spending, because military don‘t really effect them, but health care do. Sure, they don‘t want Canada to go bad, but because of our encouraged multiculturalism, some of them, IMO quite a lot of them give more of a damn to what happens to their native country than Canada, because they feel more loyalty that way.

So, give them a choice between something that‘ll benefit them more directly vs. something that‘s fuzzy and unknown, (I wonder how many immigrants bother to study Canadian history. Certainly the exam for citizenship was ridiculous) what do you think they‘d take?

[SpinDoc]

I definitely see your point Bedpan Elemental, and you are probably right in your assessment.

But I think one would find the same level of self-interest amongst the rest.  High school kids these days don‘t want to take Canadian History.  They do it because it‘s mandatory (that or it‘s a bird course if a teacher is lax).  It‘s only the ones who develop into history buffs that take a more friendly view of today‘s military and its necessity.  We live in an increasingly self-centred society (some blame Dr. Spock).  I haven‘t been around 50 years yet so I can‘t say if it‘s more self-centred than 50 yrs ago or not, but looking at the participation rate in WWII, I think it‘s a safe bet it is such a case.

[toms3]

WOW...cool.  This tread took on a life of its own, but all interesting posts.

Just want to throw something out there.  The basic idea was that Health Care is more important then the Military to the average Canadian.  Ok...lets say the gov is presently spending 2 bucks on health care and 1 buck on defence (just an example).  From the people that I have spoken too, the impression I get is....the military is still important, but not as much as health care.  So in their minds, the Gov should increase spending to 4 bucks on health care and 3 bucks on defence.  If that is correct...hey...I‘ll take it.  Now...ask the question "would you pay more tax to increase spending on health care and defence"???!!!!

[BestOfTheBest]

Well i came to Canada before 10 years
I am 16 yeas old now.
And am planning on joining the reserve soon this summer.
just thought i would share with you people over here  

[radiohead]

I was just reading the posts here, and it was cool to see the debate on health care, but I just have to point something that Ghost778 said.

"Canada is a country born from conflict. In world war two what was it, 1 in 10 canadians were involved in the military? It‘s who we are and were losing who we are because people think "well the US will just defend us, to **** with the military lets have more free "things"

If you look at how canada came about it was from debate not conflict per say.  Conflict and war is everyone‘s history but Canada was created and shaped by the conflicts to the south.  The first being 1776 with the emripe loyalist moving to lower and upper canada, then 1812, and the us civil war and the fear that the war of 1812 would be repeated.

The military for some reason has never been a main interest of any goverenment here....  if any one has any answers to that question I would love to know why.  I think its because we have always thought of ourselves someone else‘s little brother and they would come to help out.  First it was Britian, and now it the States.

[humint]

I think it is mistaken to assume that people who move to Canada from another country automatically don‘t care about the military. Is there a particular country or set of countries of origin you are refering to?

As you point out, the report from Polaris states "average Canadians."

Where you get immigrants (I am assuming you mean immigrants when you say "people who move here from other countries") and why you feel safe in that assertion/hypothesis, I have no idea.

I would argue that, by  average Canadians , the report means just that --  people born here as well as those who are landed immigrants .

I need to be honest here, I think those of us who believe that the military needs more money are in the minority.

If you look at this country, the national ethos seems to be more towards social services and heath care than it does for national defence. Fair enough, if that‘s what people want, well that‘s fine; in fact, that‘s what a democracy is all about.

Now, you and I know that the military is in $hit shape and a massive infusion of cash is needed -- and NEEDED NOW! And, certainly, most families of vets know this as well, cause they have taken the time to research the issues and have made an informed decision.

But the average, everyday Canuck out there doesn‘t see it the same way we do for the simple reason that his/her priorities are different. It is, therefore, up to us to inform people (i.e. make people aware, educate them) of what a poor state the military is in rather than blame "people who move here from other countries" for our problems.

[ObedientiaZelum]

Raidohead, just Ghost is fine    

I was refering to Canada comming together really for the first time as a country.
Our military may not have been that big of an interest to the goverenment but it was a big deal to the average canadian. In world war one our army was sued as shock troops. In both world wars if im not mistaken we were considered super powers.

I know health care is important, just as important as the military. It can be argued with sick and ill citizens we won‘t have any people recruiting to the army. I ment we should not sacrifice military spending for heatlth care. ur health care is pretty good, especially considering what the US has but the forien legion could probably take over canada.

I was not refering to any country specifically. Personally if i went to another country i would be more concerned about what i can get rather then supporting it‘s military. (it just so happens im ont he other end) I applied that thought for someone comming here. It‘s also a case by case thing. For someone who comes here and is from another country and they support the military (probably because if their leaving a war torn country they know what NOT having a good military can bring about) good on them. Their more respectable in my eyes then the students who have their parents pay for their university and blow mommy and daddies money drinking and protesting monkeys in china being used for tests in ottawa.

[radiohead]

Sorry Ghost,

  I wasn‘t sure, but your right we really did only come together in this century.  I‘ve read a lot of books on the cultural and social changes bought on by WW1.  A very nasty war, but it did bring Canadians together as Canadians, even more so after WW2.

Just a question to test to test peoples knowledge on this site.

How many people here know that if WW1 had lasted one more year; that I canadian gerenal would be running the show?  Field Marshal Haig was on the way out, Sir Arthur Currie was would of been next in line. But the war ended.

[Tyler]

 "The government needs to keep the defence lobby‘s hands out of the cookie jar. Canadians know that our security comes through good social programs, a clean environment, and a positive role in the world - not through the barrel of a gun," Staples says.

Same old socialist **** pushed by the Liberals and similar creatures.

Leftists blame the ‘gun lobby‘ for the failure of the registry, and they want to keep the ‘defence lobby‘ from getting too much money. It‘s never their fault for poor decisions and funding, afterall.

We can really scare off an enemy with our good social programs. Give me a break.

Personally, I think it‘s sad that alot of smaller European countries have better equipped militaries than we do, and Europeans tend to be more on the socialist side of things than we are. Can someone explain to me how that works? Maybe it‘s because of the ridiculously high taxes they pay? In Finland (for example) the government can take up to %70 of someone‘s pay.

I‘ve talked to alot of current and former CF members and the opinion that I get from them is that funding is only half the problem, the other half is seems to be incredibly poor management of that money.

 

"to unmask and challenge the corporate power that is the driving force behind governments concerning public policy making on economic, social and environmental issues."  

When will these people realise that ‘big business‘ and ‘big government‘ are equally bad?    

Tyler

[humint]

The current income levels for Finland range from 25% for lower income eaners to 48% for the highest bracket of income earners. In fact, Finland isn‘t even the highest in all of Europe -- Denmark, Belgium, and Germany, for example, all have higher income tax rates!

Not sure where you get the 70% tax rate?

As for taxes, I would rather pay a high rate of income tax and know that social services, education, health care, and national defence are protected institutions -- of course, proper fiscal management is also needed.

As for Liberals pushing socialist cr@p, let‘s be honest here -- as much as we think they are left wing, they are just a mirror image of the Tories. I would even go far as to suggest that that there really isn‘t much difference (at least in the modern era) between the two central parties. If you want socialism, I think you need to go to the NDP and then beyond to actually find it -- at least in the Canadian perspective of things!

Obviously, socialism does not preclude an emphasis on defence spending. What I really think it comes down to is national ethos -- does John and Jane Q Public really care about defence spending or are they more concerned about other things.

Man, we are now so far off topic that I need a map and gps to get back.

[Gunnar]

The Polaris Institute is not exactly non-partisan.  A quick look at their web site, and their "favourite links" ought to give you a rough approximation of their political viewpoints.  They support the people, and communities in the very same way socialists have always claimed MY voice as part of a collective.

As usual, the fact that MY voice isn‘t part of that collective doesn‘t faze them...

Socialist bull****.  Probably funded by the Liberal Party.  Ottawa-based, and the Liberals have a documented history of giving money to their friends...

G

[Tyler]

Thanks for clearing that up humint, I got that info from a visiting Finn. He might have meant taxes on something else, it was a while ago, I‘m not sure.

 

As for Liberals pushing socialist cr@p, let‘s be honest here -- as much as we think they are left wing, they are just a mirror image of the Tories.  

Right you are.

The national ethos of this country tends to fall to the socialist side of things, IMO. It all depends on individual opinion. **** , the NDP is as close to communism as you can get with any major party.

 

Socialist bull****. Probably funded by the Liberal Party. Ottawa-based, and the Liberals have a documented history of giving money to their friends...
 

Bang on.    

Bahh, enough with politics, time to drink.    
Have a nice Friday night!

Tyler

[Paul Gagnon]

We can really scare off an enemy with our good social programs. Give me a break.

Perhaps if we got rid of health care and the military and invested all of that into dental care we could scare them off with the flash of our sharp white fangs.  

[Drez]

I think this debate about money has always been around since there was a Canada to speak of. The social programs raised in the last 50 have expanded, and thus the funding for all of them instead of other things. Yet the fact clearly remains that where they raise the rest and forget about the base, the military as one of them.

Canadians have to stop comparing themselves with other countries like the USA on where we should be...and for a good reason. We have NOWHERE close to their population, or their purchasing power that comes with it. True, our funding should be a bit better, but we should have it to maintain ourselves and improve our forces and the technology we use, and our soldiers...not to try and look like the rest. I say have the funding for what we need and use...and forget the fancy dandy extras.

And about the posts concerning the past wars Canada participated in...we were never a vast force, but Canadian were considered shock troops. The Canadian Army was always regarded as a just and elite troop. We have our share of the exploits for those who think we never did anything...Vimy Ridge ring a bell? And so many other things...(I studied canadian military history by the way...).

So juss my two cents...and...Im new to the CF. Im 18 and I just signed up! Glad to do my part and serve my country proudly!  

[portcullisguy]

Well, let me toss in my two cents on this subject.

I love Canadian health care.  Sure, it‘s not perfect, but having a system that provides (mainly) free services, minimal waiting for low-level services, and a high standard of health expertise is certainly one of the things that makes me happy I live in Canada.  Since our taxes are so damn high, our health care system had better be at least as good as it is.

But, I don‘t think health care should be the #1 government priority.  Should it be up there?  Yes, I think it should.  But not numero uno.

That said, does the military budget have to necessarily be larger than the health care budget?  They are two entirely different programs, and it‘s like comparing apples and guavafruits.  If the hypothetical $1 spent on the military could give us all the safety and security we need, and we still have to spend $4 on health care to maintain it‘s current levels, then so be it.  However, I know that the military does need fixin‘, and that means a budget increase.

I just don‘t think our present elected leaders are responsible enough to appropriate a budget increase effectively, for either program.

Health care is great -- but what good is a great health care system if I get mugged on my way to the hospital, or a terrorist flies a jetliner into my office tower?  In Toronto, we have had a record number of motor vehicle and pedestrian deaths as a result of accidents on our roads, which places an obvious burden on health care because some of these people end up in hospitals before they give up the ghost.  The cause could be that we do not have enough police on our roads.

The problems start small.  They grow to effect many areas of our lifestyle.

An anthrax attack in a major Canadian city would certainly put a HUGE burden on our healthcare system!  But the problem isn‘t that healthcare is underfunded.

We need to take a step back, analyze the whole picture, and look for cause and effect.  I honestly do not believe that our present government is willing to do this, until they‘ve spent every last tax dollar on their conflict-of-interest pals.

Yes, health care is important.  But I do not want to have to speak Arabic/Russian/Chinese/whatever, or speak through a gas mask, at my local hospital (unless, of course, those are my native languages!) in order to GET that health care service, simply because Herman the German or Herb the Serb or whatever you call your Figure 11 targets, just marched over to Canada and took over.

It‘s not xenophobic at all, either.  I am a proponent of a healthy and effective immigration system.  I have experience with the immigration system, and know it‘s current faults, etc., since I am a border guard.  I myself am the son of an immigrant.  Canada has a way of life that people find attractive, which is why 30 million of us live here, in spite of the ridiculous cold and snow half the year.  I am not willing to compromise that way of life simply because we as a nation decided that getting our free flu shot was more important than keeping out terrorists and subversives.