Author Topic: Military Brats Born Oversea's Not Canadian's?! Even if in a Canadian overseas hospital!?! (Read 17411 times)

Rider Pride · « **on:** January 23, 2005, 11:28:28 »

I read and reread this article, and still can't believe this could be true....

Obviously someone has lost their mind, and hopefully will get this IDIOCY sorted out soonest.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2005/01/23/pf-907704.html

Sun, January 23, 2005

Forces' babies deprived

By Peter Worthington

You are not going to believe this.

At first I didn't, but I do now: Are you aware that someone born in a hospital on a Canadian military base overseas to Canadian parents in the Armed Forces is not automatically a Canadian citizen?

This, despite having a Canadian birth certificate and social insurance number (SIN)?

Krista Bruton-Anderson is such a case.

She was born in the military hospital on the Canadian base at Lahr, Germany, where her father was a soldier (Intelligence Corps). A birth certificate was issued.

When her parents returned to Canada, so did Krista, where she has lived ever since.

Life was normal until she grew up, got married -- then tried to get her SIN changed to her married name.

The ministry of human resources rejected her birth certificate and said no, she wasn't a Canadian citizen, and destroyed her social insurance card.

When contacted, DND public affairs at first insisted there must be a mistake -- children born overseas to service personnel, especially on a Canadian base, were automatically citizens.

Citizenship and immigration in Ottawa also believed being born on a Canadian military base to Canadian military parents and possessing a Canadian birth certificate was proof of citizenship.

Krista knows otherwise.

It seems Human Resources Canada has changed the rules since 9/11, without the apparent knowledge of DND and immigration.

In 2003, the Oakville office of Human Resources Canada sent Krista's birth certificate and SIN card to Ottawa with the application for a new card in her married name, Anderson.

"A few weeks later I was contacted and told my application had been returned as I didn't have proper proof of Canadian citizenship, and that my SIN card had been destroyed," Anderson says. "I have been without a SIN card ever since."

At first she thought it was a bureaucratic mix-up.

No, she was told, it was new security legislation after 9/11, and that she'd have to obtain "proper proof" of citizenship, pay a $75 application fee, get passport photos, have her identity certified by a notary public and then be prepared to wait eight months while the backlog of citizenship applications was processed.

"Needless to say I was astounded," Krista says. "I've lived in Canada constantly since my parents came home when I was around 1 year old. Today I am a Canadian but not a Canadian -- no identity, no SIN. Why should I have to pay to get citizenship when I've never been anything but a Canadian citizen?"

Why indeed? Her father, Dave Bruton, who retired from the military after 37 years, is equally upset. "This should concern every service family abroad. A child born on a Canadian Forces base, in a Forces hospital, under the Canadian flag, to Canadian citizens, should have all the rights of citizenship as if they were born anywhere in Canada."

That was exactly the view of DND when I called them. It was also the view of Immigration Canada, when I called. That said, it seems Human Resources Canada is the final authority.

Krista has contacted her MP's constituency office, where she was treated sympathetically, but without results.

I phoned the human resources and was told that since 9/11 a birth certificate of someone born outside Canada is no longer acceptable as proof of citizenship. A Canadian citizenship card is necessary for a SIN card - and that has to be applied for, at a $75 fee. Tough luck, Krista.

The constituency office of her MP (Liberal Gary Carr) wants to help, but it's helpless when confronted by a bureaucracy whose departments can't agree. Without a social insurance number, Krista is virtually stateless, and she is filing a formal complaint.

I wonder how many of our married Armed Forces personnel overseas realize their second-class status? It's a slap in the face of our military. How dare an agency of government reduce the families of Armed Forces personnel to supplicants and charge them money to prove their citizenship? What kind of security is that anyway?

What kind of prime minister is Paul Martin that he allows such an indignity imposed on those who serve the country overseas?

Obviously, if this has been a issue since 9/11, then its a Liberal party problem, one thats got to be sorted out now.

How many of our coworkers, friends, etc are in this boat?

I am angry beyond words.

old medic · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2005, 11:38:36 »

It's completely unacceptable. I can only hope this becomes a major news item, and is picked up by other media outlets.

E.R. Campbell · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2005, 12:00:47 »

Here is my E-mail to my local MP:

Please see the item 'Forces' babies deprived' by Peter Worthington in the Sun chain at: http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2005/01/23/pf-907704.html

If this is true then the pointy headed pencil necks have, finally, taken complete leave of what few senses they had.

This is totally, 100% unacceptable and our national government must:

First: reverse this stupid policy; and

Second: fire the director general, directors and managers involved because they are, clearly, mad and, therefore, dangerous to Canada.

I was a platoon commander in Soest, in West Germany in the '60s - several of my soldiers had children born there. They, the soldiers, were, always, better men than any bureaucrat could ever aspire to be, and their children must not, ever be deprived because their fathers served their country.

Please hold the government's feet to the fire on this one, Mr. Broadbent. Things need to change ... soon.

ParaMedTech · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2005, 12:07:48 »

I wonder if this is just DND, or do the CIDA, DFAIT etc dependants all get the shaft from the bean counters in Ottawa? Thank god I got my certificate at the tender age of 5. Nice cute picture on it, too!

Big Bad John · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2005, 13:29:03 »

Insane and amazing!

2 Cdo · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2005, 13:40:11 »

Some of us have known about this for a while. I was born overseas and had a Registration of Birth Abroad Certificate. In 1996 I applied for a passport and submitted all the paperwork required, no problems so far. I received my passport and what I thought were my original documents! Wrong, they sent back photocopies of my certificate!
Fast forward to 2001 I re-apply for a passport and am refused because I don't have the original documents that this government agency took from me in 96! I am told that I have to apply for citizenship, a member of the Forces for almost 20 years! It gets better though, because I don't have original documents I can't get a citizenship card! Meanwhile the fight goes on, trying to work through all the levels of red-tape and sheer bureaucracy bull****!
This is the type of government that Canadian people voted for, and you can see how they look at you as a member of the Forces! Have a nice day!

ParaMedTech · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2005, 13:45:27 »

2 CDO, that's exactly what I was afraid of.

bossi · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2005, 13:50:44 »

Yup - proof of the high esteem given to military personnel by the federal civil service ... NOT!!!
(sure sounds like "second class citizens" to me ...)

Oh, well ... they'll probably get around to it ... after they've finished processing all the accelerated immigration applications from Sri Lanka, etc. ... (after all - they'll vote Liberal ... so they're more important)

Ghost(Banned) · « **Reply #8 on:** January 23, 2005, 13:51:58 »

Yeah I think some people need to be fired

Carcharodon Carcharias · « **Reply #9 on:** January 23, 2005, 13:53:10 »

Yet look at the crap they are letting into Canada through immigration (that terrorist family for example which made all that news - remember?) .

Pretty sad.

Good luck in your fight

.

Cheers,

Wes

2 Cdo · « **Reply #10 on:** January 23, 2005, 13:58:28 »

Wes and others, thanks for your support and no I'll never give up fighting against this corrupt government! Maybe my next step is to withhold all taxes from them! Claim that I shouldn't pay Canadian taxes as I am not a Canadian citizen in their eyes! We'll see how far that flies!

George Wallace · « **Reply #11 on:** January 23, 2005, 13:59:10 »

I have heard of things like this. One of my brothers, born in 1 (F) Wing Marville France and who now works in Parks Canada, ran into a similar problem returning from a conference in the US one year. It is unbelievable that Gov't Bureaucrats create their own little empires and don't feel any remorse for anyone, even one of their own, that they may f**k over.

GW

George Wallace · « **Reply #12 on:** January 23, 2005, 14:01:23 »

2 CDO

I like that TAX thing. It may work.....look what happened with the flag flap...

GW

By the way......how can we go about reaching our MPs and perhaps get a petition out.......There are literally thousands of people in this boat, born overseas in the last fifty years, plus or minus, of Canada's stationing troops in NATO and other Allied Nations.

Cliff · « **Reply #13 on:** January 23, 2005, 14:10:23 »

Quote from: 2 Cdo on January 23, 2005, 13:40:11

Some of us have known about this for a while. I was born overseas and had a Registration of Birth Abroad Certificate. In 1996 I applied for a passport and submitted all the paperwork required, no problems so far. I received my passport and what I thought were my original documents! Wrong, they sent back photocopies of my certificate!
Fast forward to 2001 I re-apply for a passport and am refused because I don't have the original documents that this government agency took from me in 96! I am told that I have to apply for citizenship, a member of the Forces for almost 20 years! It gets better though, because I don't have original documents I can't get a citizenship card! Meanwhile the fight goes on, trying to work through all the levels of red-tape and sheer bureaucracy bull****!
This is the type of government that Canadian people voted for, and you can see how they look at you as a member of the Forces! Have a nice day!

Maybe you should contact Peter Worthington and the news media about your situation. It's an damn disgrace how this could happen.

CDN Aviator · « **Reply #14 on:** January 23, 2005, 14:15:02 »

I just read this thread..........i had never heard about this...

I was born in Lahr in 75...guess i'm gonna have problems soon !

CheersShag · « **Reply #15 on:** January 23, 2005, 14:31:53 »

Just about to go re-apply for my Canadian passport this week, I was born in England and my father was an officer teaching overseas at the Engineering College, so we'll see how that goes.

Torlyn · « **Reply #16 on:** January 23, 2005, 14:41:37 »

Right-o... As a former employee of the passport office, I can tell you that the legislation does indeed suck, but a lot of it is just a matter of people not having the proper documentation. If you were born overseas to military personel, you parents would have had to register you with the CDN government with your registration of birth abroad. As for the citizenship issues, you're not re-applying for citizenship, whatever you've heard. All you are doing is applying for proof of citizenship... Yeah, it takes a long time, but them's the breaks. Try telling someone born in Quebec with a birth certificate from prior to 1996 that it's invalid, or that if someone laminated their birth certificate, they have to go and get a new one... It's REALLY fun.

Just want to make sure that if you do need to go in to do the citizenship/passport thing, remember that the poor schmoe behind the desk didn't make the rules, they just have to live by them.

As for military ID, I was under the impression that prior to Sept 11, it was possible for non-citizens to hold positions in the CF that would give them military ID, thus it isn't proof of CDN citizenship.

T

P.S. Don't shoot the messenger.

Rider Pride · « **Reply #17 on:** January 23, 2005, 15:18:32 »

Right, I can understand the issues of passport application and citizenship issues due to the lack of proper documentation...

but in Mrs. Krista Bruton-Anderson case, all she is doing is applying to change her name on her legally begotten SIN card. So whats that mean...she is not entitled a SIN, hence not able to be employed? if shes not a citizen of this country, then how was she able to get her SIN in the first place?

I must admit, I am not an expert to the sensibilities and details of these issues, but its the lack on common sense of this specific case that bothers me.

Torlyn · « **Reply #18 on:** January 23, 2005, 15:24:00 »

You know, I was thinking about this, and I didn't think that citizenship was a requirement for a SIN card... THere are landed immigrants who still pay taxes, don't they have a SIN? I wonder if the lady didn't have any documentation with her, and the media ran with it... Wouldn't be the first time.

T

Mike Bobbitt · « **Reply #19 on:** January 23, 2005, 15:25:15 »

Having a Certificate of Registration of Birth Abroad (even with a Canadian birth certificate) is not always enough. I've seen the Canadian Gov't deny that such a document exists, even when presented with one.

My advice to anyone in this boat:

1. Do not relinquish your originals for any reason.

2. Try to obtain new proof of citizenship under the new rules. This will take time and money, but be patient. Until the new proof comes in, use your existing docs.

Cheers
Mike

Highland Lad · « **Reply #20 on:** January 23, 2005, 16:44:06 »

BTDT - Born overseas (Hong Kong), and I was lucky enough

to have my wallet stolen while in high school. When I applied to get a replacement certificate of Registration of Birth Abroad, I was told that that was not a valid ID, and that they were no longer being issued as of some time previous (no idea when).

I had to go out and obtain a certificate of Canadian Citizenship - headache and a half, but I was lucky to do it before 9/11 and all the pseudo-security bureaucratic crap that has taken hold since then.

IMHO, it looks like common sense and security seem to be complete opposites in some bureaucrats' minds (or whatever they're using to process data).

Mike, you're right - whoever is in this situation, get a Certificate of Canadian Citizenship ASAP. You may never need it, but when you do, it's going to be a (female dog) to get one in a hurry!

my 2 ¢...

George Wallace · « **Reply #21 on:** January 23, 2005, 16:45:18 »

Peter Worthington has also been following the lives of kids born in Canada, whose parents moved to the US to work, and when they returned to Canada, found that they were no longer considered Canadian, even though they at no time declared themselves as Americans. We have some screwed up rules in our "Bureaucracy" which are disenfranchising "real" Canadians. The numbers now sound like they are astronomical. It is nonsense to have these people pay to be reinstated as Canadians. I wonder, what would happen if they all got together and declared that they wanted all their taxes to be paid to the nation that Human Resources Canada claims they are from. How many billions of tax dollars would have been collected illegitimately by the Canadian Government in this scandalous case?

GW

CDN Aviator · « **Reply #22 on:** January 23, 2005, 16:46:50 »

Quote from: Highland Lad on January 23, 2005, 16:44:06

When I applied to get a replacement certificate of Registration of Birth Abroad, I was told that that was not a valid ID, and that they were no longer being issued as of some time previous (no idea when).

Mine was issued in september 1975. From what i understand, this was the last year that they were issued ( not sure though)

Kat Stevens · « **Reply #23 on:** January 23, 2005, 18:23:06 »

I have 2 of my kids born in the base hospital in Lahr, 88 and 91. They were issued a German Birth Certificate, not Canadian. Anyone else experience this? I was told I had to register their births with the German Authorities. This struck me as strange, but in CFE at the time, it was better not to question it...

CHIMO, Kat

Mike Bobbitt · « **Reply #24 on:** January 23, 2005, 18:41:16 »

Does that mean that they are subject to the German draft if it should ever come to that?

News:

Author Topic: Military Brats Born Oversea's Not Canadian's?! Even if in a Canadian overseas hospital!?! (Read 17411 times)

Big Bad John