Topic: Military Brats Born Oversea's Not Canadian's?! Even if in a Canadian overseas hospital!?!

[Mike Bobbitt]

CANFORGEN 037/05 ADM(HR-MIL) 015 211718Z FEB 05
CITIZENSHIP OF CF DEPENDANTS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA
UNCLASSIFIED
REFS: A. CIC CITIZENSHIP POLICY MANUAL 1O PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP
B. PASSPORT OFFICE WEBSITE WWW.PPT.GC.CA
C. CITIZENSHIP ACT SECTION 8
D. CFAO 26-9 CHILDREN BORN OUTSIDE CANADA - CANADIAN CITIZENSHIP
1. THE INTENT OF THIS MSG IS TO CLARIFY THE CITIZENSHIP STATUS OF CF
DEPENDANTS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA
2. BACKGROUND
A. PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP. FORMER LEGISLATION (DESCRIBED AT REF A) REQUIRED
THAT CDN CHILDREN BORN OUTSIDE CANADA BETWEEN 1 JAN 47 AND 14 FEB 77 BE
REGISTERED AS CDN CITIZENS WITHIN TWO YRS OF BIRTH AND BE ISSUED A
CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD. SINCE 15 FEB 77, CANADA S
CERTIFICATE OF CITIZENSHIP HAS BEEN THE ONLY PROOF OF CDN CITIZENSHIP ISSUED
FOR CDN CHILDREN BORN OUTSIDE CANADA
B. SOCIAL INSURANCE NUMBER (SIN) APPLICATION. THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL
DEVELOPMENT CANADA (SDC, FORMERLY HRDC) REQUIRES PROOF OF IDENTITY, NOT
PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP, TO PROCESS AN APPLICATION FOR A SIN. IN OCT 02, FOR
SECURITY REASONS, SDC ELIMINATED 20 DOCS FROM THE LIST OF THOSE ACCEPTED AS
PROOF OF IDENTITY, INCL THE FORMERLY ACCEPTED CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION OF
BIRTH ABROAD. THEREFORE, FOR CDNS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA, THE CERTIFICATE OF
CITIZENSHIP BECAME THE ONLY PROOF OF IDENTITY DOC ACCEPTED FOR SIN
APPLICATIONS. THIS CHANGE APPLIES ONLY TO THE SIN APPLICATION PROCESS. THE
ELIMINATION OF THE CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD DOC AS PROOF
OF IDENTITY FOR SIN APPLICATIONS SHOULD NOT BE INTERPRETED TO MEAN THAT THE
CITIZENSHIP OF PERS BORN TO CDN PARENTS STATIONED OUTSIDE CANADA IS IN
QUESTION
3. CURRENT SITUATION. WE UNDERSTAND THAT SDC NOW ACKNOWLEDGES THE VALIDITY
OF THE CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD DOC AS PROOF OF IDENTITY
FOR SIN APPLICATIONS AND WILL REINSTATE IT ASAP. IN ADDITION, WE UNDERSTAND
THAT CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION CANADA (CIC) CONSIDERS THIS DOC TO BE PROOF
OF CDN CITIZENSHIP
4. OTHER CONSIDERATIONS
A. PASSPORT APPLICATIONS. IAW REF B, ADULTS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA CAN SUBMIT
ANY ONE OF FOUR DIFFERENT DOCS AS PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP, INCLUDING THE
CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD ISSUED TO CDNS BORN OUTSIDE
CANADA BEFORE 15 FEB 77. CDN CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 16 WHO WERE BORN
OUTSIDE CANADA WILL HAVE RECEIVED A CERTIFICATE OF CITIZENSHIP (PARA 2A
REFERS) WHICH IS THE ONLY DOC ACCEPTED FOR THEIR PASSPORT APPLICATIONS.
CONSULT REF B FOR MORE INFO
B. RETENTION OF CITIZENSHIP. WHILE THE CITIZENSHIP OF CF DEPENDANTS BORN
OVERSEAS IS NOT REPEAT NOT IN DOUBT, REF C REVEALS THAT SOME CDN CITIZENS
BORN OUTSIDE CANADA TO A PARENT ALSO BORN OUTSIDE CANADA MAY HAVE TO APPLY
TO RETAIN THEIR CDN CITIZENSHIP BEFORE THEIR 28TH BIRTHDAY. THOSE WHO MAY BE
AFFECTED ARE STRONGLY ENCOURAGED TO COMPLETE THE WORKSHEET PROVIDED ON THE
CIC WEBSITE AT WWW.CIC.GC.CA/ENGLISH/CITIZEN/RETENTION-WORKSHEET.HTML
C. DND 419. A CF DEPENDANT BORN OUTSIDE CANADA BETWEEN 1963 AND NOV 79 MAY
HAVE BEEN ISSUED A NATIONAL DEFENCE CERTIFICATE OF BIRTH (DND 419). THE DND
419 IS NOT RECOGNIZED AS PROOF OF BIRTH AND IS NOT CONSIDERED PROOF OF
CITIZENSHIP. HOWEVER, PERS IN POSSESSION OF DND 419 WERE REGISTERED AS CDN
CITIZENS IAW THE PROCESS DESCRIBED IN PARA 2A. ON REQUEST, CIC WILL CONDUCT
A SEARCH OF RECORDS TO VERIFY CITIZENSHIP REGISTRATION
D. WHILE CIC AND THE PASSPORT OFFICE (AND SOON SDC) ACCEPT THE CERTIFICATE
OF REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD DOC, PERS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA COULD
ENCOUNTER OTHER SITUATIONS WHEREBY AN ORGANIZATION REFUSES TO ACCEPT THIS
DOC AS PROOF OF BIRTH OR IDENTITY. IN SUCH A CIRCUMSTANCE, PERS MAY BE REQR
TO APPLY TO THE COUNTRY OF BIRTH FOR A BIRTH REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE OR
EXTRACT OF THAT DOC AS SECONDARY PROOF OF BIRTH
5. AS THE CERTIFICATE OF CDN CITIZENSHIP IS THE MOST AUTHORITATIVE PROOF OF
BOTH IDENTITY AND CITIZENSHIP FOR CDNS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA, AFFECTED PERS
MAY WISH TO ACQUIRE THIS DOCUMENTATION FOR THEMSELVES OR THEIR CHILDREN AT
THEIR OWN EXPENSE TO AVOID FUTURE INCONVENIENCE. CIC SHOULD BE CONSIDERED
THE DEFINITIVE SOURCE OF INFO ON CDN CITIZENSHIP. CIC CALL CENTRE CAN BE
REACHED AT 1-888-242-2100 OR CONSULT CIC WEBSITE AT WWW.CIC.GC.CA
6. REF D IS CURRENTLY UNDER REVIEW TO REFLECT THE INFO PROVIDED ABOVE

[renfley]

Wes and others, thanks for your support and no I'll never give up fighting against this corrupt government! Maybe my next step is to withhold all taxes from them! Claim that I shouldn't pay Canadian taxes as I am not a Canadian citizen in their eyes! We'll see how far that flies!

You should... I would... what a p*** off....  Just my 0.02$ worth....

[CheersShag]

Well I'm not going to go into a big rant about it, but it relates to this article and this situation.

Today I got screwed.
While I am a Canadian citizen (apparently until my 28th birthday) I have no way of proving it (a passport and a SIN card being proof as i understand) and on my 28th apparently I'm ...for lack of a better word, done.
Which hurts a bit, got to say that stings.

[FastEddy]

Here is my E-mail to my local MP:

Please see the item 'Forces' babies deprived' by Peter Worthington in the Sun chain at: http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2005/01/23/pf-907704.html

If this is true then the pointy headed pencil necks have, finally, taken complete leave of what few senses they had.

This is totally, 100% unacceptable and our national government must:

First: reverse this stupid policy; and

Second: fire the director general, directors and managers involved because they are, clearly, mad and, therefore, dangerous to Canada.

I was a platoon commander in Soest, in West Germany in the '60s - several of my soldiers had children born there.   They, the soldiers, were, always, better men than any bureaucrat could ever aspire to be, and their children must not, ever be deprived because their fathers served their country.

Please hold the government's feet to the fire on this one, Mr. Broadbent.   Things need to change ... soon.

SIR; nice to hear a echo from the past, (Soest, Fort Henry - 55-57) Where did Brigadier Roger Rolley go on to ?.

But, back to matters at hand. Ottawa has a proven record of disregard for it Military Personnel, past and present. Just as it failed to recognize the Merchant Marine Service for almost 60 years. The DND seems to have no, or little sway over major decisions other than party lines.

I realize that in any Democratic Parliamentary County, the Military serves at their pleasure. But the DND have little or no sway at all it seems in Ottawa.

I feel that their regard and attitude is akin to one's going to the Dentist (its too painful - to expensive and do I really need to.).

In the case of Canadian Citizenship for the Dependents of Service Personnel born abroad, it is a total disaster and disgrace. Maybe we could expedite the process by claiming Refugee Status, it seems to work for them pretty well wether its the case or not.

But remeber, even if you'r getting shafted along the way (which we all agree you are) IT'S WORTH IT TO LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY AND BE A CANADIAN._

 


 

[Army-brat]

I just heard about this crap on Citizenship, I was born in Lahr Germany, 86. Although I'm young I had planned to apply for the RCMP in the next month or so, now I can't do anything until this is all sorted out! I mean they didn't even give my parents a birth certificate. All they got was a laminated card with my baby picture on it that states I'm a Canadian Citizen! But about a month ago I applied for a passport and still waiting to hear whether or not I'm going to be luck enough or not! I can be naive and hope!

[Torlyn]

I just heard about this crap on Citizenship, I was born in Lahr Germany, 86. Although I'm young I had planned to apply for the RCMP in the next month or so, now I can't do anything until this is all sorted out! I mean they didn't even give my parents a birth certificate. All they got was a laminated card with my baby picture on it that states I'm a Canadian Citizen! But about a month ago I applied for a passport and still waiting to hear whether or not I'm going to be luck enough or not! I can be naive and hope!

That laminated thing IS your proof of Canadian citizenship.  The fault rests on no one save yourself for not updating the picture.  (Which CIC will do for a nominal fee)

T

[atlin77]

I have two children born in Germany while we were serving with the Armed Forces in Lahr.  One born in Baden Soellingen in 1967 and one born in Lahr in 1969.  We were told that they were Canadian Citizens and were issued certificates of birth abroad and social insurance cards from Ottawa.  Now my children are 36 and 37 years old and have to apply for proof of citizenship.  They have lost their certifications of birth abroad and now have to try and prove that they are canadian citizens and pay for the priviledge.

For those of you who suggested withholding income tax, I would like to remind you that taxation is a product of income, not citizenship.  Even aliens who earn income in Canada must pay tax on it.

Perhaps a class action suit against Human Resources would be the way to go.  I have advised my MP of the situation.

[Torlyn]

We were told that they were Canadian Citizens and were issued certificates of birth abroad and social insurance cards from Ottawa.   Now my children are 36 and 37 years old and have to apply for proof of citizenship.   They have lost their certifications of birth abroad and now have to try and prove that they are canadian citizens and pay for the priviledge.

Try loosing your birth certificate from Ontario.  If you loose all of your ID, the process isn't all that fun, and I know that Ontario has had a hell of a time getting things done in a timely manner.  It's not just those born overseas.  You've got citizenship, you just need proof, as do those of us born here in Canada.

T

[George Wallace]

For those of you who suggested withholding income tax, I would like to remind you that taxation is a product of income, not citizenship. Even aliens who earn income in Canada must pay tax on it.

Perhaps a class action suit against Human Resources would be the way to go. I have advised my MP of the situation.

Yes that is true about Taxation, unless......I believe you can pay your taxes to another country; your Mother Country, as many Americans do who work in Canada.   What would happen if your kids said that they wanted to pay their taxes to Germany instead?  How many others are in the same boat?  What would happen if Germany came back and claimed all those taxes "illegally" paid to Canada, with Interest?  Just some musings.   

I believe you have the best idea in a Class Action Suit against Human Resources.

I hope that your MP responds to your inquiries and you can post that info here.

[FastEddy]

Yup - proof of the high esteem given to military personnel by the federal civil service ... NOT!!!
(sure sounds like "second class citizens" to me ...)

Oh, well ... they'll probably get around to it ... after they've finished processing all the accelerated immigration applications from Sri Lanka, etc. ... (after all - they'll vote Liberal ... so they're more important)

Boy you don't know how right you are.

[thehammer2001]

My mother in law was also in the same boat. She was born in germany during the Koren war where her father and mother were stationed. She was working as a nurse in teh US when 911 happened when she tried to return to border to renew her work visa, she was told that she was not a citizen of canada. Thankfully we have family in politics and most of the red tape got cut of her but still a headache.

[Kat Stevens]

I hesitate to drag this one back into the daylight....nah, not really  .  Has anything come about to resolve this?  My kids were born in Lahr, '88 and '92.  They only got a birth certificate issued by the Ratthaus in Lahr, there was no other documentation forthcoming, and when I enquired on rotation back to Canada, was told none was necessary.  I have 2 ancient passports that they were issued, says Canadian Citizen right inside... good enough if accompanied with a birth cert?  They are both coming of an age where they want jobs, but can't get a SIN until this crap is resolved.  My boy is also special needs, and therefore needs proof of citizenship for any disability benefits once he reaches age of majority.  This is just one of a long list of things that keep me up at night.  Rant ends...

[2 Cdo]

Just thought I would add an update to my ongoing struggles with the red tape  involved in sorting out my citizenship. Today in the mail, after only 3 weeks, I recieved my citizenship card! I cannot remember the young lady who finally assisted me, but her help was most excellent.

I think what clinched it was the photocopy of my Registration of Birth Abroad, DND ID card, PAL card, and a brief letter written outlining my frustrations in dealing an issue, through no fault of mine, that never should have happened. Thus the 6-8 month wait they anticipate turned into 3 weeks!

Did I mention that as a military member who needs to deploy overseas as part of his job was mentioned in my letter? VERY important point to mention.

Perseverance troops, keep after them, keep calling, ask questions of them, and maybe it will work out for you as well as it did for me!

By the way, my citizenship card and the paperwork for getting a replacement (if req.) are both safely locked away!(Just in case)

[Guy. E]

ooooooooooooo crap, i know some one born in Lahr? (sp) in 86 of a military family...

i know this may be kind of old, but are there any updates on the situation?

[Kat Stevens]

Well, just got off the phone with the Immigra policia.  It seems that I have to shell out $75 for each kid, because I was unfortunately too nearsighted to get all my procreating done before going overseas.  So 2 of my kids are less Canadian than 2 kids born in Borden... Complete and utter horseshit, Oh, and by the way, you're ****** welcome, Canada.

[George Wallace]

Kat

It is just the Government's way of getting back all that money they paid you in Foreign Service Allowances.

[Guy. E]

Please correct me if i am incorrect, however isn't there something conducted in our Parliament building in Ottawa called "Question Period"? does not the regular Canadian citizen have the right to bring a point point of interest or a question to the government in power?

I think it would make quite the impression if several currently serving and retired CF members showed up in they're DEU's and asked or read a prepared speech about this to the government.

get the media there and its a big stink.

or is that just a bad idea?

[Kat Stevens]

The media was involved from the start. A "certain journalist known to this site" had a column in the Toronto Watchamacallit, about a former Lahr Brat who was told she wasn't a Canadian, because her dad was inconsiderate enough to be fighting the Cold War (look it up, it was in all the papers) when she was born.  End result of said article?  A big, fat, FU very much.....

[George Wallace]

And "Refugee Status" is out of the question.   

[Guy. E]

So, if your not Canadian, what are you? German? cant be German... can you?

[raymao]

It seemed like a very scary topic you guys have been talking about. I found the following page at http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/mapleleaf/html_files/html_view_e.asp?page=vol8-08p18-20
to set the record straight, please read below:

Information on Canadian citizenship
By Lt(N) Robyn Barnet-Kummer

A newspaper article titled “Forces Babies Deprived” appeared in the January 23 issue of the Toronto Sun. This article has sparked many e-mails and inquiries from anxious persons who are worried that their Canadian citizenship may be in jeopardy.

The article detailed the difficulties faced by a woman in Canada who had applied for a new Social Insurance Number (SIN) card after she was married so her card would reflect her married instead of her maiden name. Her application was returned and she was advised she did not meet the criteria for a SIN because she did not provide proof of Canadian citizenship. It turns out she had been born overseas to parents who had been in Germany with the CF.

The reality of the situation is a little different than the article would lead a reader to believe. So in the interest of setting the record straight, I will try to shed a little light on the subject.

Human Resources and Skills Development Canada (HRSDC) requires a primary document with all applications for SINs. For Canadian citizens born within Canada, this is a birth certificate or certificate of birth. For all Canadian citizens born outside Canada the document required is a certificate of citizenship. This is not just for persons born to members of CF personnel who served overseas, it is a requirement of all Canadian citizens born abroad. Canadian citizens born outside Canada are Canadian citizens; they just must provide proper documentation when applying for a SIN card.

Research into the SIN issue unveiled another citizenship issue that CF members should be made aware of—some citizens of Canada do not automatically remain citizens for life.

Persons born outside Canada after February 14, 1977 may need to apply to retain their Canadian citizenship. Retention of citizenship applies to Canadians born outside Canada after February 14, 1977 to a Canadian parent who was also born outside Canada to a Canadian parent. Such persons are the second generation born outside of Canada and will lose their Canadian citizenship on their 28th birthday, unless they make application for retention of Canadian citizenship. It should be noted that retention of citizenship does not apply to adopted children.

For more information go to the Citizenship and Immigration Canada Web site at: www.cic.gc.ca.

If you require further information with regard to the issuance of a SIN please visit the HRSDC Web site at: www.hrsdc.gc.ca.

Lt(N) Barnet-Kummer is a JAG officer at CFSU (Europe).

[Guy. E]

Here is a censored e mail I got from my friends mother after telling her about this issue:

From: "Tweed, Merv - Assistant 1" <TweedM0@parl.gc.ca>
To: <_______________>
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:42:17 -0500
>_________,
>
>Thank you for your email.
>
>Upon checking with Service Canada, they have supplied the following information. Since 1977, any births outside of Canada, the parents should have been issued a citizen card. Since the 9-11 issue, tighter security deemed the card not valid for proof of citizenship. Amendments in 2004 were enacted in April 2005 that now again allows the card to be a valid form of proof. The story in the Toronto paper referred to a 2003 incident, a time when the card was not valid.
>
>Please check to see if you possess a citizenship card for your daughter. If you have any other issues, please feel free to contact me at Mr. Tweed's Brandon office.
>
>Bill Potter, Special Assitant, 726-7600
>
>
>
>From: __________[mailto:_____________]
>Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 10:00 PM
>To: Tweed, Merv - M.P.
>Subject: please read
>
>
>
>I have a 19 year old daughter born on the same base as this girl and am scared that this situation if not looked at will affect her future plans. Could you please help me to find out what the proper information is and what is required?
>
>This attachment is just a small part of a much bigger problem and story, I hope that you will visit the site and see what challenges many children may be up against in regards to this problem.
>
>http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,26123.30.html
>
> Thank you __________
>