Poll

Should we retain the monarchy?

Yes in its present form.
Yes, but with an elected Governor General.
Yes, but in some other form.
No
Indifferent.

Author Topic: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?  (Read 34398 times)

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Offline Torlyn

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2004, 12:32:39 »
Given the current political attutide, perhaps not Tim Horton's, but at Corner Gas?  ;)

T

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2004, 18:14:21 »
Quote
You want to see some fun numbers, the following link provides the expense reports for the upper echelons of FAC...  Pretty scary what some "invitational dinners" cost...

http://www.fac-aec.gc.ca/department/disclosure/menu-en.asp

Yikes!  Very enlightening...
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Offline Acorn

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2004, 22:22:31 »
Do any of you understand the purpose of hospitality (entertainment) budgets, and do you look at the break-downs or just the total cost? Do you know and understand the rules under which those funds are expended?

Are there abuses? Probably. There certainly were abuses in the past (though rules have tightened considerably). Don't go thinking that the life of an Ambassador/High Commissioner is all champaign and canapés. OK, it is to a certain extent, but consider that:

1. They don't get paid overtime, and lunches/dinners/receptions are actually work, and often not in the usual office hours.
2. Spouses are expected to entertain as well, and are not paid for their work (some sr officers/WOs can probably relate to this).

Some of you may understand how the world outside of Canada works - contacts. The Canadian (and US) concept of professional relationships is the exception in the world, not the rule. The majority of the world works on personal relationships, and sometimes that means picking up the tab for lunch.

Acorn
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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2004, 23:10:30 »
Good point Acorn.  Even when their busy jawing at the dinner table, they may be securing future information or prospects that are in our National Interests.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2004, 23:26:14 »
I doff my hat Acorn...

<dave reminds himself not to get swept up in mob rule again>
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Boydfish

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2004, 20:53:08 »
A couple of thoughts on the topic at hand:

#1 - The GG's trips outside of the confederation.  The cost of the trips is a bit excessive, but my problem lies with the fact that such a trip is directly incompatible with the job of GG.  The GG is supposed to be the Crown's personal representative in the Canadian confederation.  If the GG can do thier job from outside the confederation, then we don't need one, because the Crown, resident in Buckingham Palace, could do it then. 

The original role of the GG and the LG's were put in place because the executive role of the Crown simply couldn't "execute" in a timely fashion, due to the global nature of the Empire.  Today, with modern communication and travel, the role of the GG is quite redundant in many regards.  Before it's tossed aside casually, however, it's important to note that in political terms, the Crown and by extention, the GG, is an incredibly stabilizing force.  Unlike the Americans or the French, who vest actual political involvement with executive authority, the confederation instead has an apolitical executive.  This is one of the major reasons why we don't have the same problem with political assasination that the US has had historically:  You cannot effect real political change by killing the GG, nor can you decapitate the government by killing the PM, so assasination is not useful.

#2 - The Queen not being "Canadian".  This one is a big myth shoved forward by pro-republic types and has, at best, a sliver of legitimacy.  Elizabeth Windsor, the person, not only has defacto citizenship, she personally owns an estate in British Columbia.  Not the Crown properties, but an actual estate that she and the other royals use when they visit British Columbia.

#3 - Prince William assuming the role of King of Canada.  This is not a new idea.  In fact, in the discussion that lead to the Statute of Westminster, there was discussion of scrapping the confederation and having the provinces "re-branded" as the Kingdom of Canada.  In the end, the confederation of equal provinces was kept, but with it's own seperate crown, but worn by the same person.  One of the big reasons that the idea was not pursued was because the Americans threatened war over the idea:  They did not want a resident "King" anywhere in North America.  While that's a threat that the US would have surely had problems backing up, the British opted to spare the blood and treasure of both the US and the Empire.

#4 - So Mr.Know-it-all, you have any suggestions or are you just going to spout off?  My suggestion would be to scrap the GG position outright.  Replace it's constitutional role by "promoting" the provincial LG's to each being Governor Generals appointed by the provincial PM's.  Each provincial GG already represents the Crown, which essentially covers the entire confederation in terms of representation.  The GG's can take turns signing the acts and bills into law by Royal Assent, with my personal suggestion being that it's determined by the member that put forward the bill's province of representation(Ex. If Paul Martin puts forward a bill, the GG of Quebec signs it in, but if Chuck Cadman puts it forward, BC's GG signs it).  A simple vote among the GG's would be required to dissolve the House of Commons, rather than one person "Dropping the writ".  This would have an interesting back-door constitutional safety valve effect:  If the confederal government goes nuts, the provinces can yank the plug on it, forcing them to go back to the polls.  It also ends the silliness of "one from Ontario, one from Quebec" for the GG office by making each province's GG co-equal and giving Albertans, British Columbians and others fair representation in the confederation.  Another positive point, it further enhances the apolitical nature of the role, making it less of a risk to political violence.

Oh yeah, one more thing, it would actually cost less, since we already have the LGs, but could take the entire GG budget and apply it speeding up the recruiting process for people joining British Columbian reserve armoured regiments!

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2004, 13:21:47 »
 :D There is one fundamental problem with any proposal re: the Canadian monarchy and its functions: any such change requires the unanimous agreement of the federal parliament and all provincial legislatures - none of the 7/50 stuff, this is big time unanimity; Québec, Alberta and PEI all have vetoes.

Getting rid of the monarchy is more complex than it was in Cromwell's day - just ask the Australians.   It appears, to me, that a fairly solid majority of Australians wanted, still want a head of government who is an Australian, not, in other words our gracious sovereign lady nor her son or grandson.   Seems reasonable enough to me ...   The status quo monarchists won the referendum, though, because the other side could not agree on what form of Windsorless government should be put in place.

My idea is simple: keep the constitutional monarchy, ditch the monarch ... the next one, anyway.

The succession to the thrones of the United Kingdom of Great Britain etc, etc, etc ad infinitum is governed by many Acts of Parliament, the most important being the Act of Settlement of 1701.   Some Canadian republicans have tried, unsuccessfully, to have this Act declared unconstitutional in Canada because its base (no Catholics on or even very near the throne) offends our Charter of Rights.   Our courts have decided not to deal with the issue but such an interpretation does open the way for a uniquely Canadian solution to the monarchy puzzle - one which does not require a constitutional amendment.

Readers should know that the succession to the throne is not automatic; it requires a conscious action by an official of the government - representing the state.   In Britain it is the duty of the Earl Marshal of England to say, at the appropriate moment, something like "The Queen is Dead; God save the King!â ?   In Canada, I believe, the duty to proclaim a new head of state (our sovereign) rests with the keeper of the Great Seal of Canada: the Registrar General of Canada who is, also, the Minister of Industry.   There is an important constitutional nicety here - the nation chooses its sovereign, not vice versa.

I propose that our functionary - the Minister of Industry - should, at the appropriate moment, say: "the Queen is dead!â ?   He (or she) should then go back about the nation's business.   The effect of this would be to choose a form of constitutional monarchy known as a regency[/b].   Regencies are neither new nor rare - there have been many in British history - they usually occur usually when the monarch is very young or quite mad.   There is nor reason, however, that one could not exist just because we don't like the monarch who is 'on offer' by the royal family.

Now to make this work smoothly, and to be polite, too, we should do a few things first:

"¢   Pass a resolution in the House of Commons - not a bill, per se, no royal assent required - saying that since the Act of Settlement of 1701 is, indeed, offensive to the principles of our Charter the Parliament of Canada should consider the proper succession for the Throne of Canada and until that is done the existing line of succession should be held in abeyance;

"¢   Write a nice letter to the Queen, from the Prime Minister - whose [i[advice[/i] she is constitutionally bound to follow - advising her that her son will not, necessarily, be proclaimed as King of Canada until the Parliament of Canada has time and energy enough to wrestle with the issue of the succession; and

"¢   Figure out a better way to select governors general who will, after all, be Canadian heads of the Canadian state since, presumably, we will never get around to wrestling with the issue of succession.

Voila! a monarchless state without a constitutional amendment!   No change to the form of government, just some tidying up of the 'bums in seats' issue.

Think of the advantages - we could reduce the envy which characterizes the Canadian regimental system by allowing everyone - even the second best - to wear Queen Victoria's cipher.     ::)
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Boydfish

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2004, 17:41:43 »
Rusty Old Joint:

I've heard similar proposals before, the problem is that they won't work.  They would work if we were a banana republic, but if done in a Westminster democracy, which, both the confederation and the ten provinces all are, it wouldn't work.

First, the "constitution" and the CCRF are all secondary things:  The convention of the supreme nature of the Crown, the Parliaments and Legislatures, Assemblies means that Trudeau's docs are pretty pieces of paper and nothing else.

Second, if the Canadian Parliament doesn't proclaim it...who gives a crap?  If the BC government proclaims it, the Crown succession is complete as it pertains to BC, Canadian resolutions be damned.  Ditto for any other province.  As you said, getting 100% agreement ain't going to happen.  What makes you think that British Columbians are going to accept whatever regent the Canadian Parliament appoints as the new "Royal Family" of the confederation?  It won't be a British Columbian, that's for damn sure and I'd likely guess that thier name would rhyme with "Turd-o".  Just what we'd want out west:  A Liberal on the throne for life.

Third, I see no evidence that there is a "majority" seeking to drop the basis of our historical system of government.

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2004, 17:53:28 »
I agree that it is, indeed, convention uber alles and the supreme convention is that the monarch reigns and parliament rules.   Further, I'm not convinced there is a separate 'throne' of BC, I'm sure BC gets a voice/veto if we change the form of government but I'm not sure anyone cares even a wee tiny bit about what British Columbians may (or may not) think about who gets to sit on the throne of Canada.   ;)
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Boydfish

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2004, 18:12:23 »
There isn't a seperate throne for British Columbia or any of the other nine provinces, nor does there have to be:  Once British Columbia, or any other province, declares the new monarch, it's in full force and effect there. 

At best, the proposed plan would create a circumstance where you'd have some provinces under the lawful monarch King Charles, others under what we can call the Trudeau regent and maybe a few other permutations as well(Ex. Alberta opts to go for a regent option, just nobody named Trudeau.  Or Quebec appoints Bernard Landry as it's regent).

This is important because we're a confederation of ten equal provinces, not a republic or a United Kingdom:  The Lieutenant Governor-Generals are not representatives of the GG in the provinces, they are the direct representatives of the monarch in the provinces.  If you end up with one province under King Charles, another under Regent Prince Morton of Alberta, another under Regent Prince Landry of Quebec(Plus a few more likely as well) and the confederal government under Regent Prince Trudeau, you end up with some pretty wonky circumstances that would rip the confederation apart in very short order.

In short, there is no way that you'd get enough agreement from the provinces to even attempt your plan.

Offline AmmoTech90

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2004, 18:31:27 »
One question regarding the problem of BC accepting the new monarch and Parliment not.  Does that mean that BC can ignore Federal legislation that has not recieved Royal Assent?
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2004, 18:49:45 »
 ;) I'm afraid you're getting a lot more serious than I intended this 'idea' to be ... but I think that  §12 and  §58 fol of the BNA make it clear that the provincial lieutenant governors are appointed by and are responsible to the governor general.   They exercise the sovereign's powers with respect to the matters covered in  §92, which, unless I missed something, does not include deciding on who ought (or ought not) to be king.

All that being said: there isn't much convention for establishing a regency so I'm not sure that legalisms would be much help.

Going back to the start: there are only two ways to change the form of the nation:

"¢   A unanimous[/b] amendment to the constitution; or

"¢   Revolution.

I neither of those is appealing and if the idea of King Charles III is equally unappealing then something else would need to be done ...   :D
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2004, 01:00:59 »
Nah, no more serious than politics should be taken.   ;D

I think that the provinces would rightly point out that the confederal government exists because of them, not the other way around, if the confederal government sought to change the nature of the confederation like that.

Offline Glorified Ape

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #63 on: November 29, 2004, 18:15:40 »
Just curious (not sure if this topic's been done to death since I haven't been here that long) but what does everyone think about Canada, and the Force's, whole affiliation with the British monarchy? Do you think we'd be better off without it or would it just be too much trouble to change everything for what would really be a pretty minor difference?

I was just pondering it and wondered whether dropping the monarchy would alter Canada's personality and what effects its relationship with the monarchy has on the character of its people. Does our affiliation with the monarchy make our forces better, worse, or have no effect? (I don't mean insofar as skill is concerned, but more in the realm of conduct and prestige)
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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #64 on: November 30, 2004, 18:30:10 »
I was watching a documentary on the Royals the other day, and being quite familiar with the Royals of Englands past I had a thought.

The current Queen is a stroke of bloody luck. Shes a wonderful figurehead lends herself to causes etc and works well infront of the media (The maniacal media) she is the first head of Britain to have to do so.

Recently tapes of intereviews with Princess Di have been released and the Prince of Wales supposedly said "I will not be the first prince of wales to not have a mistress." To his wife no less. The Royals are not all as good as QE2 and this is something we will have to deal with.
Think of how the public at large would have viewed king Henry and his many wives, the fat prince George and his insane father.
Not just the nobility as it was then, but in the modern era where everyone pretty much has a good look at the Royals.

Good conduct and prestige have little to do with the Royals if their behaviour is studied carefully throughout history and even the modern ones.

I have to agree with the idea that it's just too much trouble as well as spitting in the face of the many Canadians who have died for King and Country in the past.

Offline Kirkhill

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #65 on: November 30, 2004, 19:54:01 »
Thanks Che.

I am one of those that supports the Royals.   For good or ill.   Queen Elizabeth is ruddy good at her job and we may have to pass through one or two less able before we find another.

See, the thing for me, I have to admit, is as much about race, blood and kin as it is anything to do with legal authority.   That family, to people of my background, represents a physical tie to something very ancient.   That's what deBrett's peerage is about.   I am no aristocrat but that family and my families, like most families in the UK have intertwined histories.   In many ways, to me they represent a living version of Stonehenge - they probably wouldn't be thrilled by the comparison - but they are a touchstone.   For me.

To others they represent other things, much like any work of art or institution, it is in the eye of the beholder.   I can understand why many Canadians, especially recent immigrants don't find a reason for the connection.   But to about half the population there is at least some form of connection and not all of it has to do with race.  I have run across monarchists amongst many non-Brits.

As to your comment about public perception of the Royals -   "Georgie Porgie Puddin' and Pie, Kissed the girls and made them cry", an English nursery rhyme, was composed in "honour" of an arrogant, fat, rake of an individual who took advantage of his position to secure more than his fair share of good times and forgot to leave appropriate tips.   The public didn't think much of him when he was Prince of Wales, a position he held for far too long under an long-lived father.   He became George IV and was quite well liked as a King.   Edward VII was much the same.

Henry VIII and Bloody Mary had very few redeeming qualities.

Royals come and go, good and bad, but like Stonehenge, the line endures.   For some of us that is probably all that is necessary.

I would be quite happy with Canada a member of the Commonwealth of which QE is head while we have our own Elected Governor-General.  

The secret with tradition is to maintain the ties to history while at the same time adjusting to the realities of today.

Cheers.

History is personal.   They put real people into history and supply a personal tie to historical events.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2004, 20:00:12 by Kirkhill »
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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #66 on: November 30, 2004, 20:35:13 »
I've been doing some research on Charlie, and I wonder if he will be as good as his mother. He seems like he'd fit in quite well with Sir Reginald Boddy Nigel Hawthorne Upon Tweed at Berwick (well daddy was a banker, and mommy was a...horse) I mean he has his causes, is dedicated to the arts, etc. etc. and he seems to be at the end of the "Old Royals" where his mother was something of anomaly for her time.

I believe that William will do quite well however, charismatic, presumably intelligent and no doubt will take up some of his mothers causes.
If the media doesn't end the monarchy when Charles takes over. I really think he's got some very interesting things that haven't been dug up yet, but when they do, watch the circus tents go up.

Offline CheersShag

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #67 on: November 30, 2004, 20:44:24 »
Sorry if anyone didn't catch the upper class twit reference, I only tease though, I have an uncle who is waiting for his father to die so he can stop working and spend some time in the Cotswalds so I feel it's my duty to rag on them.
Just for a laugh:

Quote
Vivian Smith-Smythe-Smith has an
O-level in chemo-hygiene.
Simon-Zinc-Trumpet-Harris, married to a very attractive table lamp.
Nigel Incubator-Jones, his best friend is a tree,
and in his spare time he's a stockbroker.
Gervaise Brook-Hampster is in the Guards,
and his father uses him as a wastepaper basket.
And finally Oliver St John-Mollusc,

Offline RECON-MAN

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2004, 04:21:21 »
SORRY. SOUTH AFRICA HAS FIRST SHOT AT IT.
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Offline nULL

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2004, 12:30:55 »
Strange, I would have assumed that you soldiers would be the most vociferous proponents of keeping the monarchy, tradition being as it were. Is the balmoral next?

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2004, 13:51:43 »
Strange, I would have assumed that you soldiers would be the most vociferous proponents of keeping the monarchy, tradition being as it were. Is the balmoral next?

I once was.   But now I feel the that more and more, the military basing so much of it's lineage and image (Royal, colours, crowns, etc, etc) around a Monarch seems to ring more and more hollow every time I think about it.

Personally, I'm not too keen on still being a subject to the Crown.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline nULL

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2004, 23:16:51 »
From my own personal observations about Australia (I'm sure Wes could confirm) the collective sense of national identity down there is much more prevalent. While Australia may soon be a republic (when put to a second vote) I have no doubt that they seem to have a better idea of who they are.

At my school down there, I remember singing "Advance Australia Fare" and "Waltzing Matilda" enthusiastically with other like minded people; back home, "Oh Canada" always seemed to be sung with a touch of....embarrassment? Awkwardness? But then again, perhaps that's what happened when they took the singing of the anthem out of schools.  ::)

Perhaps when Canadians decide not to base their collective self image on making themselves distinct from the Americans (how the hell did we come so far as to discuss the decriminalization of marijuana?) , and have stopped fostering a national image around hockey and beer (fun for a laugh, but seriously...) we'll be ready.

Personally, I don't see why we can't be a unique mix of the old world and the new, but while we're on the topic....


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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2004, 23:35:44 »
Well, unlike many others, I'm not willing to base the necessity of maintaining links to the Monarchy on preserving a few "neat" heritage things in the military.  My argument stems from the political notion that we are "grown-ups" now as a sovereign state - we've repatriated our Constitution - a long process that started with the King/Byng affair and ended with Trudeau's Constitution Act, 1982 (and thus our own control over the head of government) and it will only be a matter of time before we repatriate our Head of State (and thus having de jure control over our sovereignty as well).

Just because I advocate eliminating the Monarchy in Canada doesn't mean that I urge for a dramatic "severing of the chord" - a la post-Revolutionary America.  It is quite feasible to remain engaged in our traditional and long-standing relationship with our distant relatives in Britain; for example - India is a member of the Commonwealth and maintains vestiges of it's history as the Raj, and yet it does not maintain the monarchy.

I believe Null is 100% correct on this question though; first, Canada must get a better grasp on who we are.  I will give Trudeau credit for starting us down a road that, for better or for worse, has made us well capable of standing on our own as a political idea.

I look forward to the day when Canada, along with our military, can start to forge institutional image and function around our own ideas of who we are.
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Offline nULL

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2004, 23:51:28 »
Infanteer....quick constitutional question; wasn't the repatriating of our constitition as much (if not more) a desire of the British as it was to us?

Certainly though, were the monarch (Clarkson) to engage in anything other than her obligational parliamentary duties and engage in something at her own discretion, we're repatriate our Head of State right-quick  :D

Still, I can't see how it would affect the country as a whole; were we to become a republic, nULL predicts casual indifference among populace.

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Re: Retain the Monarchy in Canada?
« Reply #74 on: December 13, 2004, 15:40:59 »
There is only one answer...

NO.

It is not only proper messing etiquette...but tradition in the CF. We've been toasting the Crown (either King or Queen) for eons. Why stop now?

Some of us, IIRC, swore an oath to Canada and the Queen.

Sounds like Commie talk to me!  ;D

Regards
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.--Ben Franklin

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."
    -Norman Schwartzkopf