Author Topic: All eyes on Ignatieff  (Read 84247 times)

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Offline jmacleod

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2005, 00:52:30 »
I would like to see someone try and dismantle the Liberal Party of Canada - pardon me for
laughing. Liberal strategists do not get involved in academic arguements, naval gazing or
reflections on perfect governments, (whatever that is). They will focus on the logistics of
a Federal election and a strategy to win it. Period. Liberal Party of Canada will easily win the
next Federal election - people like Layton have seen to that, when the Socialists betrayed
the "opposition". Personally, I admire Harper, but he cannot survive the Liberal media, who
for their own reasons, support the "natural ruling party". Liberal immigration policy focused
on Ontario over the past decades, has provided a voting pool of people who will vote Liberal
-just look at the polls, starting in Toronto, also the Party has played to the homosexual community
which votes as a block (and has strong media ties). Voter apathy too, plays a major role in
election strategies, that is why the timing of a Federal election is critical - have an election in
Canada on 15 February, say, and most people will not get out to vote. Some of the posts on
this site are highly emotional - emotion does not play a part in Liberal election strategies. MacLeod

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2005, 06:06:35 »
I would like to see someone try and dismantle the Liberal Party of Canada - pardon me for
laughing. Liberal strategists do not get involved in academic arguements, naval gazing or
reflections on perfect governments, (whatever that is). They will focus on the logistics of
a Federal election and a strategy to win it. Period. Liberal Party of Canada will easily win the
next Federal election - people like Layton have seen to that, when the Socialists betrayed
the "opposition". Personally, I admire Harper, but he cannot survive the Liberal media, who
for their own reasons, support the "natural ruling party". Liberal immigration policy focused
on Ontario over the past decades, has provided a voting pool of people who will vote Liberal
-just look at the polls, starting in Toronto, also the Party has played to the homosexual community
which votes as a block (and has strong media ties). Voter apathy too, plays a major role in
election strategies, that is why the timing of a Federal election is critical - have an election in
Canada on 15 February, say, and most people will not get out to vote. Some of the posts on
this site are highly emotional - emotion does not play a part in Liberal election strategies. MacLeod

I think Mr. MacLeod is spot on target.  I agree with his explanation of why and how the Liberal Party of Canada is in and does business.  Its product is power and its strength is in the commitment of its people, its core of members, to gaining and maintaining power.

A relatively small number of people (probably less than 10,000 Canadians) will decide if Michael Ignatieff can help to secure the Liberal Party of Canada's power base: if he can they will toss out Martin and anoint Ignatieff as leader, if not he goes back to Harvard.


It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
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Offline jmacleod

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2005, 06:22:21 »
Edward Campbell is a thoughtful man, and his take on Ignatieff is absolutely correct. Ignatieff will
be nominated in Toronto - he will win the nomination. It will be interesting to observe how
Liberal MPs from Toronto, like  Dr. John Godfrey, a Martin loyalist will react to this. John Godfrey
is the former President of King's College, Halifax NS, and academic and outstanding scholar
-shunted aside by the the Chretien crowd, but a friend of Martin. Yet his academic and human
rights credentials make him a natural supporter of Ignatieff. One thing appears certain however,
Mr. Martin's tenure is finished, and only the most loyal and obtuse Martin supporter is unaware
of this fact of Liberal politics. Another media problem for Mr. Harper in Nova Scotia yesterday,
when he referred to Liberal MP and Fisheries Minister Geoff Regan as "Gerry Regan" - the Honorable
Gerry Regan is the former Premier of Nova Scotia, a Federal Minister (Trudeau era) and the father
of Minister Geoff Regan - Harper's handlers should have known this and briefed Harper, talking in
the heartland of Tory Nova Scotia. MacLeod

Offline Wayne Coady(Banned)

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2005, 06:33:07 »
 would like to see someone try and dismantle all political parties.
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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2005, 07:54:55 »
Liberal immigration policy focused on Ontario over the past decades, has provided a voting pool of people who will vote Liberal
-just look at the polls, starting in Toronto,

You aren't seriously suggesting that federal immigration policy has been driven by a plot to create a voting bloc are you?
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

Offline jmacleod

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2005, 08:50:57 »
I am not talking about a "plot" or Federal Immigration Policy - Federal immigration policy was not
a decision by the Liberal Party of Canada, it was a decision by PM Pierre E. Trudeau and his cabinet
of the period, all clearly documented and part of our historic past. But the Liberal Party of Ontario
in particular organized reception committees for immigrants, particularly those from Italy and
Portugal, and assisted them substantially with the logistics of coming to Canada. It was a well
thought out plan, which had it's historical background, for instance in Nova Scotia, where Scots/Irish
immigrants, mostly Roman Catholic were welcomed by the NS Liberal Party, and assisted. Those
were the days (1870's) in Nova Scotia where in certain areas, a Roman Catholic Mass had to be
held in secret. Did most of these people in NS and later Ontario become Liberals? of course. The
immigrants to Ontario for instance, from Ulster (Protestants) became the main driving force of the
Ontario Conservative Party (Orangemen and all that). MacLeod

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2005, 11:47:52 »
I regard myself of something of a conservative civil libertarian; I like to think that I am a classical, 19th century liberal â “ someone who thinks John Stuart Mill got it just about right about 150 years ago and that there has not been much, useful, added since.*

I find myself attracted to much of Ignatieff's world-view as I understand it.  (I am especially impressed with the ideas he brought out in his biography of Isaiah Berlin.)  I share his belief in fundamental human rights for all â “ regardless of race, colour, creed and so on.  I also understand his support for prosecuting the war against the Arab, extremist, fundamentalist Islamic movements which declared war on us.

If I like Ignatieff then I am 99.9% certain that a very, very large minority of the Liberal Party of Canada is going to thoroughly detest him if, Big IF, they ever find out what he thinks.  That substantial minority â “ it may even be a majority â “ includes virtually the entire, still large and influential Trudeau wing of the party which has influence amongst both the Martinis and the Chrétienistas.  The Trudeauites remain united in their blissful ignorance of history and economics and in their pursuit of the old, discredited, intellectually vacuous anti-capitalist policies.  They, including John Godfrey, form the core of the knee-jerk anti-American wing of the party.

But we are going to have an election this winter so it is time for the gentlemen to get off the pitch and make room for the players and the Liberal Party of Canada players, as Mr. MacLeod has told us, are undeterred by anything as banal as ideas and intellect.  They learned, back in the '60s and'70s that charisma tops brains, integrity, ideas and ability, all rolled together, every time.  The guessing, I guess, is that Ignatieff has charisma â “ his reputation as a world famous Harvard scholar will satisfy the deep craving of a huge majority of Canadians to have whatever the Americans have.  His ideas can be disguised or submerged into whatever bits of fluff the stenographers in the Canadian media take down, verbatim, fro the Liberal hacks and flacks and then pass on to us as 'news.'  All that, of course, if the Québec Wing of the Liberal Party fails in its bid to retain the tradition of alternating French and English leaders â “ and despite the fact that Paul Martin Sr. entered the government as the Franco-Ontarian minister in King's cabinet, Montrealer Paul Martin Jr. is not French enough to count, no matter what the Manley team says.

It is no walk over for Ignatieff, I think.  Too bad because he might, just might be the guy to rescue a once proud national institution from 40 years of rot and corruption which have made it more akin to the criminal mob than a political party.

----------

* I also think that modern political liberalism is a peculiarly English (not even British) construct which is rooted in the traditional values of several, but not all, North Western European cultures.  It (English liberalism) borrowed heavily, for 1,000 years, from across the North Sea and then, in the 19th and 20th centuries found fertile ground in some European countries.  Most of continental Europe, in my view, remains profoundly illiberal â “ the French and Italians and Spanish raise their clench fists and scream Liberation! but they rarely practice what they preach.  European (mostly French) colonialism is responsible for most of what Fareeed Zakaria described (in Foreign Affairs in 1997 â “ later expanded into a book: The Future of Freedom) as illiberal democracy â “ see:  http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19971101faessay3809-p20/fareed-zakaria/the-rise-of-illiberal-democracy.html ).

Most quasi-democratic states (including, in my opinion, many in Europe, even in the European Union, itself) learned all the wrong socio-economic and political lessons from their colonial masters â “ some, even many mastered some of the forms of democracy, like elections, even free and fair elections, but they failed to grasp the functions: respect for laws, a belief in the supremacy of the rule of law, equality at law rather than (unattainable by humans) economic or social equality â “ which leads, inevitably, to Marxism and social, economic and political failure.  I also believe that there are, in Asia, a few conservative democracies â “ which are possible in the very conservative Asian societies.  I have no problems with liberal or conservative democracies â “ liberal democracies are better for liberal societies, conservative democracies are, probably, better for conservative societies.  Illiberal democracies are neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring and, in so far as they reflect illiberal societies (Eastern Europe? the Balkans? the Middle East? West Asia?) then, perhaps they pose dangers to our values by disguising the real problems.

It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
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Offline Acorn

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2005, 22:46:52 »
One wonders, Edward, if you will still be thought of as a thoughtful man after that.

Acorn

"Liberal societies cannot be defended by herbivores. We need carnivores to save us." - Michael Ignatieff, The Lesser Evil

Offline Wayne Coady(Banned)

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2005, 23:44:30 »
Well Edward Campbell :  liberal or conservative democracies seems to be the very problem, they float that word "democracy" around as if we were suppose to believe it were real. This liberal/ conservative bull as cost the taxpayers of Canada much, and as far as this being a "democracy" well maybe if you do not mind being stolen blind by some lawyer turned politician.

I remember what conservative politics under Mulroney done to this country and now here we are still going through what the Liberals Party have done to this country with their ad scam plus much more, the NDP are not free from stealing from the taxpayers either, they have proved that they too have light fingers.

No, I get a kick when someone tries to tie the party system to democracy, when in fact a political party is nothing more than a vehicle, used to deceive and steal from the countries citizens. There is very little difference between a motor cycle gang such as the Hells Angles and a political party. The only difference is political parties have managed to put the very people who are suppose to manage justice in the right places to push their protective legislative laws. From the time of Sir John A MacDonald we the taxpayers have been stolen from and think about it, MacDonald was caught for taking kick backs and they gave him the title "Sir" , something like give the Order of Canada to Jean Crietian or Brian Mulroney.

Honourable is as Honourable does. But no my friend, Liberal / ConServative/ NDP parties are along way from being democratic, from the very day you enter either party , you either do as you are told by the "party" or you hit the road. That sounds like dictatorship politics to me. Unions, Religion and political parties all appeal to the masses, people who cannot think or do for themself and all three have been losing their membership, they are on the decline, because people have been waking up, slowly, but they are starting to think outside the box.
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2005, 23:46:47 »
I will take this education in stride, but my mentor Thucydides pretty much summed it up around 404BC (which is why I know "parties" will continue to exist regardless):

Quote
It will be enough for me, however, if these words of mine are judged useful by those who want to understand clearly the events which happened in the past, and which (human nature being what it is) will, at some time or other and in much the same ways, be repeated in the future.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Wayne Coady(Banned)

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #60 on: July 10, 2005, 23:57:19 »
Parties only  exist because they have been blind siding us with BS. Parties may exist, but that does not mean we cannot change. Crooks, rapest and molesters exist too, and we do not condone their activities, so why should we condone political parties being used as vehicles to high-jack our "government" so the few can exist or those who wish to be social climbers can crawl over top of us using "our tax dollars?"
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Offline jmacleod

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2005, 05:37:15 »
Canadians have the opportunity to change governments - it is called "voting" - the name on the
ballot that gets most of the "X"s wins - been doing it for years. Liberals win most of the time
because they get most of the "X"s - one would never find a discussion like this on a Liberal or
Conservative web site, but that is the type of democracy we have, flawed, annoying, but there
and I cannot see any significant change on the horizon - why? primarily because of Canadian
Media, who have adopted the Liberals. Even the Sun newspapers, advocating the election of
Conservatives are owned by a consortium with very strong direct links to the Liberal Parrty of
Canada. The media started the move towards Ignatieff, not the Party - the media have written
off Manley already - and Stephen Harper is a target. His political career is over, regardless of his
summer sojourn. They will start on Layton when he realizes that he got royally shafted by the
Martin government - what will he do? why not a "Letter to the Editor". MacLeod


Offline jmacleod

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2005, 07:52:10 »
I had not intended to post another comment on this site, but the points of view are well thought
out and appreciated - but I feel I must point out a common fallacy when discussing "Liberal Politics"
- the Liberal Party and the "Liberal Government" is not the same thing. The Party deals in the
mechanics of elections - the focus is on winning. No one in the Party will care what Ignatieff thinks;
his strength through nomination and election is acceptable only in winning. The Liberal Party thrives
on patronage - the Senate of Canada is an example. With the exception of P.M. Pierre Trudeau,
no Liberal Leader since MacKenzie King has had control and the total loyality of both the Government
and the Party - I doubt in the forseeable future if any Liberal Leader or P.M. will have that same
rapport that Trudeau had (still has in fact).Just a note about Dr. John Godfrey MP; his father was
a Liberal Senator, know him well from Halifax days - he is not anti American - his academic credentials
and his links with Kings College and Dalhousie University precludes that,down town Toronto anti
Amercan nonsense. Brian Mulroney failed because he never had control or real empathy with the
Conservative (PC etc) Party - and then the media (and later the public, prompted by the media)
turned on him - same thing is happening to Harper on a daily basis. I am not debating if the Liberal
Government is good for the country, just talking about the strategy of "elections" - an exercise in
reality. MacLeod

Offline Wayne Coady(Banned)

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2005, 08:40:33 »
JMacLeod: The number of people becoming involved in political parties has fallen off as are those people interested in voting. It is my belief that the demographics will change the way we vote and will change the party system. The old party loyalists at the ballot Box are now taking a second look at the party system, because they have retired and no have the time to look at the way these parties have managed our finances.
Church/ religion is suffering as well because of how they have managed their faith, you cannot molest young alter boys or orphans and expect to get away with it under the name of God, much as political parties have abused "our government" , to feather the nest of the party friends / elite with our tax dollars.
Sure parties will be there, but not as they are now, they will crash, and as far as leadership, like Harper, well the media might like to think it is all about Harper, but Canada never got over Mulroney as we will not get over Cretien.

Parties are responsible for the death of many small business here in Nova Scotia, if they are not using tax dollars, they are putting in place regulation that cripples the small mom and pop operation. We have the Sunday shopping issue, which i think should not be an issue if we live in a free market society as we are led to believe we do, but this is just a myth, unless your a big box store. No Mr. Macleod, parties are slowly turning into ashes, people are starting to see through the media too.

 When you see reporters who were once reporting on dirty government are now spin doctors  or employed as speech writers, goodness they are even running for the very parties they have refused to report on. Here in Nova Scotia the number of media types employed with either "government" or their favorite party has become a concern, people are wondering just how much of the news we are not getting.

Maybe we should start putting our X on non of the above and push for more people who are wiling to think out side the party box.
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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2005, 09:20:33 »
"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." 2007 winning entry, Texas A&M University - most appropriate definition of a contemporary term.

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Offline jmacleod

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2005, 09:55:14 »
All good points Wayne - you may be right. The younger generation, like my three professional
daughters can change things - frankly I do not know how they vote, rarely talk politics with me
- but a lot of people are fed up with the system. We have undertaken a lot of development
projects in Nova Scotia - we recently refused to submit a Business Plan Proposal call for the
Digby Airport NS, because the bureaucrats who wrote the RFP (all politically appointed) did
not know what they were talking about - saw the same thing in Newfoundland a couple of
years ago - too much of that in the Atlantic region - New Brunswick is also caught up in the
same type of process. MacLeod

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2005, 09:55:38 »
... Just a note about Dr. John Godfrey MP; his father was a Liberal Senator, know him well from Halifax days - he is not anti American - his academic credentials and his links with Kings College and Dalhousie University precludes that, down town Toronto anti
Amercan nonsense ...

I really fail to see how attending Kings College or Dal magically inoculates one against knee-jerk anti-Americanism, especially if, as may be Godfrey's case, it is mostly just pandering to the local electorate's prejudices.

That would just be lying to get votes, wouldn't it?  Maybe that's where his Liberal roots come in.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
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Offline jmacleod

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2005, 10:04:26 »
There is a lot of American money in Dalhousie, has been for decades. There are strong academic
links with Dalhousie with it's best medical school and law school in Canada - actually Dr. Godfrey
is a good guy, smart as hell, an asset to the current Liberal government. We helped negotiate
a major Industrial Regional Benefit (IRB) for Nova Scotia on the LLADS and CP140 purchases
which was worth one million US, for the Dalhousie Medical School (Canadian money in American
hands)  MacLeod

Offline Wayne Coady(Banned)

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #68 on: July 11, 2005, 10:11:00 »
All good points Wayne - you may be right. The younger generation, like my three professional
daughters can change things - frankly I do not know how they vote, rarely talk politics with me
- but a lot of people are fed up with the system. We have undertaken a lot of development
projects in Nova Scotia - we recently refused to submit a Business Plan Proposal call for the
Digby Airport NS, because the bureaucrats who wrote the RFP (all politically appointed) did
not know what they were talking about - saw the same thing in Newfoundland a couple of
years ago - too much of that in the Atlantic region - New Brunswick is also caught up in the
same type of process. MacLeod


John I been to some very interesting meeting where the people have brought forward some great ideas and hopefully your daughters as my children will have the courage to move for change. I spoke with a nurse at the Lunenburg Craft show yesterday and she tells me that as soon as the "government" drafts the legislation , we will have practicing nurses incorporating and they will be doing as our family physicians do now, she tells me it a pay for service is coming.
What shocked me was, the public here in Nova Scotia are not fully aware of this, they think we are still debating how our health system should be set up. The Conservative party have been working with the Medical Society and the College to draft the regulations and of course we know that our Premier is a member of this organization , once again the elite looking out for their own.
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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2005, 12:10:25 »
Canadians have the opportunity to change governments - it is called "voting" - the name on the
ballot that gets most of the "X"s wins - been doing it for years. Liberals win most of the time
because they get most of the "X"s

This is a falsehood perpetrated by the Liberal party in an effort to legitimize their tyrrany.  Federally, the Liberals have not ever gotten "most of the "X"s (at least since 1940), but due to constant gerrymandering of a fundamentally flawed system they have legally been able to to govern as if they have.  Canadian's "opportunity" to change governments to anything other than Liberal is restricted by an electoral system that stacks the odds against them (particularly if those Canadians are voting in Alberta or BC).
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

Offline jmacleod

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2005, 12:38:55 »
No kidding! What a surprise. MacLeod

Offline Wayne Coady(Banned)

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #71 on: July 11, 2005, 12:43:54 »
This is a falsehood perpetrated by the Liberal party in an effort to legitimize their tyrrany.   Federally, the Liberals have not ever gotten "most of the "X"s (at least since 1940), but due to constant gerrymandering of a fundamentally flawed system they have legally been able to to govern as if they have.   Canadian's "opportunity" to change governments to anything other than Liberal is restricted by an electoral system that stacks the odds against them (particularly if those Canadians are voting in Alberta or BC).

Yes you are correct, but this does not just apply to one party and you have presented a case that would support proportional presentation and possibly a system with a re-call mechanism built in. This would be a first good step to reforming our political system.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2005, 08:57:56 »
Here is an interesting counterpoint from John Ibbitson in today's Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050713/IBBIT13/Columnists/Columnist?author=John+Ibbitson
Quote
Ignatieff for Liberal PM? Not in this decade

By JOHN IBBITSON
Wednesday, July 13, 2005 Updated at 8:33 AM EDT

Michael Ignatieff, according to a friend, is quietly appalled by the story that appeared in this paper a couple of weeks ago announcing that he planned to return to Canada and seek public office, with the prime ministership his ultimate goal.

Really, this writer was assured, Mr. Ignatieff is not nearly that far down any political path. A few well-meaning but ill-advised friends have been promoting the idea, but the director of the Carr Center for Human Rights Policy at Harvard University is working on a book and happy with his job, the friend professed.

So, does that mean he will not be a candidate in the next election? The friend paused before responding: Declarations of any kind, at this point, would be premature.

The possibility that one of Canada's most distinguished intellectuals and writers may return to his native land and enter political life has Liberal insiders in a tizzy, which speaks volumes about the current state of the Liberal Party.

Perhaps for the first time in this country's history, there is no member of a Liberal cabinet who has serious prospects of succeeding the Prime Minister. Paul Martin banished his potential challengers -- including John Manley and Allan Rock -- from the front bench, and all of his most senior and most competent ministers are either unilingual anglophones or francophones who lack either the ambition or the prospects to lead the party.

Mr. Ignatieff, on the other hand, is a fine writer, with a mind to match, and is free of partisan political encumbrances. He espouses an agenda of social justice and national unity reminiscent of Pierre Trudeau, while also embracing the manifest civilizing destiny of the United States. To a party and a country impatient with the tired old men who have led us in recent years, Mr. Ignatieff could be a breath of rejuvenation.

The problem is, in politics things don't work that way.

Let's set aside the fact that the country has moved beyond any Trudeauesque romances of a centralized federation married to an enhanced social charter, or that the people most likely to cling to such an outdated vision would be appalled by Mr. Ignatieff's support for the U.S. invasion of Iraq or the missile-defence program. Let's also set aside the fact that, as one colleague observed, Mr. Ignatieff writes in The New York Times using the first person plural.

Mr. Ignatieff's political prospects would be poor simply because the Liberal Party has changed over the past 40 years. Mr. Trudeau could emerge as a philosopher king/prime minister because senior Liberals decided the party and the country needed him, and they pulled the necessary levers to ensure his victory at the 1968 leadership convention, as Mr. Martin's father bitterly discovered.

But Paul Martin came to power through a very different path. He schmoozed, he wooed, he connected. He established a core campaign team in each province, then extended that network to the riding level. He became PM, in essence, by taking control of the mechanism of delegate selection.

Mr. Ignatieff has no meaningful connections within the Liberal Party. Even if senior Liberals were to conclude that a Harvard intellectual was best suited to lead the party, such an elite could never deliver the delegate support Mr. Ignatieff would need. Other potential contenders, including Frank McKenna, John Manley and Martin Cauchon, already have informal organizations on standby. If Mr. Ignatieff were to try to organize against them, they would toast him, butter him lightly, and have him for breakfast.

Nevertheless, the Liberal Party desperately needs someone who understands the United States. Here's hoping the Harvard don returns to Canada and runs in the next election. If the Liberals win again, he will make an outstanding addition to cabinet. But prime minister? Not in this decade.

© Copyright 2005 Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Some army.ca members will have noted that I cite Ibbiston quite a lot.  I do so because, broadly, I find much of interest in what he has to say.

I suspect, despite Mr. MacLeod's assurances about senior Liberal insiders providing Ignatieff with a 'power base', that Ibbitson is correct when he says: â ? Other potential contenders ... already have informal organizations on standby. If Mr. Ignatieff were to try to organize against them, they would toast him, butter him lightly, and have him for breakfast.â ?

If Ibbitson is right and the Liberal brain-trust is en-route to concluding that: "...  the Liberal Party desperately needs someone who understands the United States ...â ? as its next leader (the implication being that Martin does not and Chrétien (and the Chrétienistas) did not) then Manley is the man, I think.

Caveat lector:  I know John Manley, I like him and I respect him.  I do not know him well enough to call him a friend, but well enough that when we are in the same place, at some conference or social event, we usually take a few (of his busy) minutes to chat about a few matters of mutual interest.  I think Manley was, head and shoulders, the best minister in Chrétien's cabinet - including Martin; not the best politician or best campaigner, just the best minister.  I think Manley was an excellent Industry Minister - maybe the best since CD Howe; he was a very, very good foreign minister - the best since St. Laurent and that includes Mike Pearson (who didn't, really, do much, as foreign minister - his reputation was made as a very senior bureaucrat, where he excelled); and a good enough finance minister, too.  I think he might be a good prime minister and a good Liberal Party leader: willing and able, I believe, to wring out the last vestiges of the Trudeauistic nonsense which has prevented me from voting Liberal, ever, since the mid 1960s.


It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
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Offline jmacleod

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2005, 10:54:22 »
An interesting piece by Ibbotson, but inconsequential. Liberal Party are focused on Ignatieff
because they see him clearly as a winner - Ignatieff however may not want to enter the tough
ruthless world of Liberal politics (who could blame him). Alan Rock well known to us is an impressive
guy, but I doubt if he has any interest in seeking the Leadership now, and could not win in any
event - Manley is not in the picture. A competent politician and Minister, but rated average -has
no chance of Liberal Leadership (and he knows it). The Party will be focused on new faces, from
in and out of the present Liberal government, and a new direction (what ever that will be, your
guess is as good as mine) and finally Frank McKenna. My personal opinion is that he will not offer
because he cannot win - and why should he. A small town lawyer and small Province Premier
is a major player in the world of commerce, and highly rated in the U.S. a long way from a law
practice in the former Newcastle N.B. - but he would make a first rate PM. Macleod

Offline Thucydides

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Re: All eyes on Ignatieff
« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2005, 21:49:01 »
The bench strength of the Liberals seems to be at an all time low, the Martinis haven even driven out lightweights like Sheila Copps and Alen Rock. I suspect the "buzz" around the good doctor is an attempt to get some fresh blood in the Party, but as has been pointed out in this and the new thread, there are people with residual leadership ambitions, and the internal split between the Martinis and Creitienistas would make it very difficult for the good Dr. to walk in and clean house.

It is a pretty pathetic picture of how debased our politics has become; a rudderless and nearly leaderless Liberal Government, backed by a party currently firmly in the grip of Mr Dithers is still the party with the highest numbers in the polls.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.