Author Topic: Reserve Pension- Merged  (Read 168034 times)

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Offline Andy011

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #1075 on: December 20, 2011, 20:58:12 »
After the better part of four years. I got an answer.
...

Figures.

But at least you have an answer from the RFPP monkeys.  I'm still waiting. 

Maybe they're waiting until I'm close to 60 too.   ::)
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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #1076 on: December 20, 2011, 21:16:18 »
Figures.

But at least you have an answer from the RFPP monkeys.  I'm still waiting. 

Maybe they're waiting until I'm close to 60 too.   ::)

Problem is, the answer is not an answer.

It makes no sense, but requires a response.

Do I question it, wait another four years and be told I should have responded in two, only to perpetuate the fuckery?

I think the only real recourse is to forget it.

Which has been the goal of the Reserve Pension Board all along.

If we make it so difficult to apply, we won't have to administer it.

I would love to pay a civilian auditor to take my information, try make sense of it and fight these goofs for my couple of bucks a month.

Call me when I have a cheque on the way.
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Offline RLD

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #1077 on: December 21, 2011, 14:23:51 »
I think what they are saying, is that I owe them a lot of money. About $135,000, to buy in.
...
I think this means I can collect about $500\ month pension. The math doesn't work.

RECCEGUY: Agree with you that the numbers don't make any sense. $135K to buy a $500/month pension is quite simply a losing proposition that you would have to be crazy to take. $135K could buy a 60 year old male a life annuity through an Insurance Company that would pay about $675/month and that is without the employers share in the pension plan. $500/month just does not make sense. Either someone screwed up the calculation or there is a problem with the communication.

As Rifleman pointed out, in your situation the instalment payments should be over 20 years (from the date of your election). The only way the time period would be shorter is if you requested a shorter period or if you indicated a payment amount on your election that was higher than the minimum required thereby reducing the time frame. In my experience though they do confirm the instalment amount when the file is being finalized.

Offline RLD

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #1078 on: December 30, 2011, 00:22:04 »
From the 2010 Actuarial Report of the RFPP (available at http://www.osfi-bsif.gc.ca/osfi/index_e.aspx?DetailID=502 )

RFPP Fund Liabilities = $155,700,000
RFPP Fund Assets = $233,300,000 (149.8% of liability)
RFPP Fund Surplus = $77,600,000

So what created this surplus of nearly 50%?

There are five sources of "income" for the fund
1. Member current year contributions;
2. Employer Current Year contributions (between $1.71 and $1.74 for each member $1 for 2007-2010 IAW the 2008 Actuarial Report);
3. Member Past Service contributions;
4. Employer Past Service contributions (approx $1 to each member $1); and
5. Investment Returns.

Investment returns: Total investment return from CIF to 31 Mar 10 is about $6,000,000. The report expects long term real returns at a rate of about 4.2%. It is difficult to calculate the actual annual rate of return since CIF without more detailed information but I would estimate it at 1.75%-2%, well below the projected rate of return but not surprising given two years of negative returns and only one positive year in major financial markets. It is clear however, that great investment returns did not create this surplus. If anything the weak returns should result in a deficit of $6-10 million.

So the surplus is clearly a result of over contribution by members and the employer.

Current Year contributions for members are at about the same rate as for other federal plans and the employer contribution rate for the RFPP is significantly lower than for other plans so if this was causing the surplus the other federal plans would be in a worse (better?) surplus situation since they have a higher rate of employer contribution. This is not the case. There is nothing to indicate current year contributions had a significant impact on the surplus

This leaves prior service contributions as the main culprit in creating this large surplus. More specifically the seven percent compound interest has generated far more money than is needed to actually fund the prior service benefits being bought back.

Regardless of how much of the surplus came from current service and how much from prior service it is clear that members' over contributions account for a significant part of the surplus. I estimate that at least $21,200,000 and perhaps as much as $38,800,000 of this surplus came directly out of the pockets of Reservists. I suspect it is closer to the higher number since the prior service ratio is about one employer dollar to each member dollar.

So what happens to this surplus?

By law anything greater than 20% above liabilities is considered a non-permitted surplus. The government can take this money, including the portion contributed by members, and either throw it back into general government revenue or use it to offset future employer contributions to the plan. The actuarial report assumes that the government will do the latter starting in 2013. The net effect is an indirect tax on members.

So what can be done?

Redress is not an option since the prior service election interest rate is set in regulations and is beyond the capability of any authority in the CF to change.

Complaints to the CF Ombudsman are a possibility but the 2010 report of the Ombudsman indicates it's investigation of the RFPP ( http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/rep-rap/ar-ra/2010-2011/report-rapport-eng.asp#ic-sp ) was set aside until they reviewed the Auditor General's report. The AG report basically said the plan was so screwed up that it couldn't offer an opinion on it. I doubt any action will be coming on the Ombudsman front before the government takes the surplus and even if they do continue their investigation the ombudsman report does not appear to include anything on prior service interest rate. (Note: The Ombudsman is restricted in dealing with individual pension matters but he can look into systemic issues which this should qualify as since it affects all who elect prior service.)

Direct Appeal to Parliamentarians:  I believe this is the best recourse remaining if there is any hope of getting this fixed. The Governor in Council has the power to amend the regulations and make it retroactive. Up until now we had only opinion that we were being overcharged on prior service elections in regards to the sustainability of the plan (as opposed to overcharged in comparison with other plans which was blatantly obvious). The 50% surplus in the actuarial report is the smoking gun that shows members (and taxpayers for that matter since employer contributions are based on member contributions) are being massively overcharged on prior service elections. The remedy should be to reduce the interest rate retroactive to CIF.  I don't think this necessarily means the four percent rate stated in the CFSA but a rate that produces assets that more closely matches the liabilities and is sustainable. TB/DCFPS would have to look at the numbers but my guess is it would come out closer to the four percent in the CFSA than the seven percent in regulations. Personally I am starting with the President of Treasury Board (who owns the regulations), the MND and my local MP. If I don't hear anything in a reasonable time I will move on to the opposition TB/Defence critics, the Senate Committee on National Security and Defence and anyone else I can think of. Hopefully others who read this forum will also raise the issue with the Ministers and their local MPs and raise the visibility of the issue.

Will it work? I am not holding my breathe but nobody at DND has shown any interest in standing up for Reservists on the issue so the only hope is to do it ourselves. No action guarantees failure.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 00:28:10 by RLD »

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #1079 on: December 30, 2011, 18:38:35 »
I posted this previously.
Quote
No reference anywhere about interest charged, interest income from contributions. Revenue is listed as contributions. I would think the OSFI would break down revenue sources.

In my conspiracy world, the interest has been ripped out into, lets say, to general revenue.

My buy back Excel spreadsheet shows contributions. Then interest is added. For the Part I.1, the interest added is 63% of the total.

RLD do you have your buy back spreadsheet with headings A to W? I think DND paid William Mericer a million dollars to develop a formula to make Reservists pay.

I had the Treasury Board President sitting at my dinning room table. He was incredulous. He passed it on the McKay. I got the usual letter.
Never Congratulate Yourself In Victory, Nor Blame Your Horses In Defeat - Old Cossack Expression

Offline RLD

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #1080 on: December 30, 2011, 22:05:29 »
I posted this previously.
My buy back Excel spreadsheet shows contributions. Then interest is added. For the Part I.1, the interest added is 63% of the total.

RLD do you have your buy back spreadsheet with headings A to W? I think DND paid William Mericer a million dollars to develop a formula to make Reservists pay.

I had the Treasury Board President sitting at my dinning room table. He was incredulous. He passed it on the McKay. I got the usual letter.

I assume you are referring to the Excel calculator that was published on the pension website back in 2007 and then removed. If so then the latest update I did back in 2009 showed about 64% of the total part I.1 cost was interest. While I believe this is roughfully accurate (+/- 2 or 3%) there were errors in the calculator, for example it did not treat mid year interest calculations correctly if the election date was after 1 Jul in a given year, so I have not used it with the most recent info I have. The reason I believe this is roughfully accurate is that the corrected online calculator provided a final result that was close to what I got with the spreadsheet using the same input although of course it did not provide any details.

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #1081 on: December 30, 2011, 22:20:06 »
PM to you via Yahoo.

No, I meant the spreadsheet of the calculations for my buyback done by Pension Services.

The methodology and the back and forth of the calculations is very interesting. You should have got an spreadsheet with your buyback. I am very suspicious of the calculations, but not knowing the "formula", and suspecting William Mericer made a million on the deal......
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 22:30:20 by Rifleman62 »
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Offline RLD

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #1082 on: December 31, 2011, 09:20:17 »
PM to you via Yahoo.

No, I meant the spreadsheet of the calculations for my buyback done by Pension Services.

The methodology and the back and forth of the calculations is very interesting. You should have got an spreadsheet with your buyback. I am very suspicious of the calculations, but not knowing the "formula", and suspecting William Mericer made a million on the deal......

Sorry. I didn't receive such a breakdown.

All I got from Pension Services was:
a. Statement of Service which gave a year by year breakdown of my CF Service;
b. Calculation of the Annuity which gave my total annuity and how it was arrived at; and
c. The Cost of Past Service Election (Part I and Parft I.1 sepefrate) but this only gave the total buyback cost, the lump sum payment I made, the amount outstanding and my monthly instalment.

My own calculations do bear out an interest cost of about 64% of total for a 32 year buyback.

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #1083 on: January 04, 2012, 09:19:40 »
Minister John Baird (Foreign Affairs) is hosting CFRA Ottawa talk show. 1 800 580 2372. Try and get through.
Never Congratulate Yourself In Victory, Nor Blame Your Horses In Defeat - Old Cossack Expression

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #1084 on: January 04, 2012, 09:31:04 »
Got through, shook off, but took my phone number. Someone else PLEASE phone in. 30 minutes left.
Never Congratulate Yourself In Victory, Nor Blame Your Horses In Defeat - Old Cossack Expression

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #1085 on: March 06, 2012, 10:54:09 »
And in their latest feat, the DND website has taken down the CFSA annual reports.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pen/pa-ap/ar-ra/index-eng.asp

This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline hamiltongs

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #1086 on: March 06, 2012, 12:28:58 »
And in their latest feat, the DND website has taken down the CFSA annual reports.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pen/pa-ap/ar-ra/index-eng.asp
DND had to take down about 70% of its web material on 1 Mar because the Supreme Court ruled that it didn't meet the "accessibility" right (bilingual, large-print format available and text-to-speech for the visually impaired, etc). Thank heavens the courts are out there to protect our rights!  Don't you all feel more empowered now? ::)