Topic: Military Housing, CFHA, and the cost of renting a PMQ (and annual increases)

[axeman]

i HEAR YOU , right now im living in the PMQ and it is very apperent how everytime theres a raise in our pay the rent of these go up . and another thing is that the namao PMQ s are not in edmonton but in Morrinville but we are still forced to pay the edmonton city rates even though we dont live in the city limits . i agree that these places for what we are paying should be maintained in like new shapre even as far as to re insulate them  . but instead since the forces have handed it off to a private comapany they are making money off of what should be a zero loss payment scheme as these houses have been paid for since the mid seventies at least. all we should be paying for  should be utilities and maintinance not market value as we are the one risking life and limb in some forgien country this should be the least of the payback for losing weekends  for months on end and dealing with what we have to deal with the idea behind a garrison was to keep us seperate from the local population . if we desire to live in the local population fine then we should pay that rate but as we wish to live int the garrison commuity why are we being force to be like it ....

[Gumby]

This is absolutely appalling, mold? Frozen groceries?!? It kind of makes one want to think twice about going into the Reg F.  I will definitely be taking part in the petition,  and I will also be writing off letters to anyone that I can to find justification for this abuse.  I am going to encourage everyone I know to do the same thing.

[gun plumber]

Yep.going to have the wall in the kitchen removed and new cupboards thanks to black mold.Paint upstairs is chipping off the walls in my son's room and the wind whips through the family so bad we had to put up garbage bags one night.Fair market value........bah!

[ToRN]

That is just unreasonable, something needs to be done about that, is it really that bad everywhere? or just in the PMQs?

[Inch]

It's only on certain bases, Moose Jaw PMQs were all recently renovated, except the row houses but there's only a few of them left.  All the single dwellings and duplexes are like new there, not too bad at all. The SQs there are brand new too, as are the SQs in Portage, Trenton, and Winnipeg. A buddy of mine has a PMQ in Winnipeg and they're not too bad either. It all depends on where you go, some are nicer than others.

Cheers

[beach_bum]

Here in Vancouver, the PMQs are in a great area!  In fact, it's so great, that we are surrounded by million dollar homes.  You can just imagine what that does to our rent, being based on the local economy and all.  People who live in this area make about 5 times what I do!  The base shelter value for my home is over $1100!!!!!  Thankfully, they can't charge us more than 25% of our pay!  Even still, I pay over $800 for this lovely non-insulated leaky PMQ.     The response we get whenever we complain is move and go live on the economy.  Then.....in order to live somewhere I could afford I would have a 2 hour commute to work.

[bobthebui|der]

whats the word on Pets PMQ condition? ?How can one bring a new family into conditions already stated before...very discouraging.

[Xfire]

i remeber my old house in pet had to be compeltely gutted because of bad wireing..i would hate to be payin for that place now.

[ToRN]

since I am currently unattached, I am more concerned about the SQs, but I would also like to know what the situation is like in pet, and in gagetown.

[pbi]

The stated objective of the Federal Govt, for some years now, is to get completely out of the housing business except for extremely isolated posts(of which we have only a very few remaining).This applies to the CF, the RCMP, Transport Canada, etc. Therefore there is very little incentive for them to do much about really overhauling the PMQs for the long run.

This is not helped by the fact that (IIRC) only about 30% of CF personnel live in PMQs, and this is declining as our pay and benefit packages improve.

Finally, I think you will find a huge difference in how the Services have looked after the PMQs. The Airforce has traditionally done the best job of taking care of its PMQ communities, while the Army has not done nearly as well. The Navy seems to me to have done not much better than the Army, and perhaps worse.

Cheers.

[bobthebui|der]

As the Pay and benefits improve, how much easier is it to find decent housing within a soldiers price range, outside of what the military can provide (that is, for a family and singles)? As well, any first hand recollections would be appreciated regarding specific bases (in my case, Pet)

[pbi]

It's really no different than it is for any other Canadian (except we get some benefits they dont...) It depend on where you live. When I lived in the GTA (97-2002) owning a house was completely out of the question: way too expensive. But, once I was posted to Winnipeg, I discovered the amazing world of the Winnipeg housing market: one of the best-kept secrets in Canada. For 50% of what you woul pay in GTA you can get a good house in a very nice neighborhood, then when postng time comes, sell it in a very few days(maybe even 24 hours)  and make a profit. I paid less in mortagage and property taxes combined here in Wpg than I paid to rent a PMQ at the Oakville site. In Pet, you are probably in a pretty reasonable price range.  As well, the CF picks up real estate agent, legal and home inspector fees. Cheers.

[axeman]

That would be great except here in the namao / lancaster base  they are chargeing us as if we lived in edmonton , which we dont  and no amount of talking to them seems to make them realize that .

[pbi]

That would be great except here in the namao / lancaster base  they are chargeing us as if we lived in edmonton , which we dont  and no amount of talking to them seems to make them realize that .

Sorry-I'm not quite following you: was that post in response to mine, or another? Cheers.

[axeman]

it was in response to neither . just a statement .

[bobthebui|der]

It's really no different than it is for any other Canadian (except we get some benefits they dont...) It depend on where you live. When I lived in the GTA (97-2002) owning a house was completely out of the question: way too expensive. But, once I was posted to Winnipeg, I discovered the amazing world of the Winnipeg housing market: one of the best-kept secrets in Canada. For 50% of what you woul pay in GTA you can get a good house in a very nice neighborhood, then when postng time comes, sell it in a very few days(maybe even 24 hours)   and make a profit. I paid less in mortagage and property taxes combined here in Wpg than I paid to rent a PMQ at the Oakville site. In Pet, you are probably in a pretty reasonable price range.   As well, the CF picks up real estate agent, legal and home inspector fees. Cheers.

Thanks, a bit more reassuring  Axeman, whats their logic behind charging your real estate prices for Edmonton, when you arent in Edmonton?
 

[pbi]

My guess: Probably they are looking at a comparable neighborhood. If they went west a bit and used St Albert, nobody could ever afford to live in PMQs. Strathcona, being a mainly rural area with smaller communities like Morinville,may not be considered as a comparable neighborhood. The nearest large stock of housing of similar age, condition, etc would be found in the City of Edmonton. Just  my guess.

[Proud Forester]

This is ridiculous. I live in the SQ in Borden, they arnt that bad, but they already hiked up our rates $10 a month this year, now they want to do it again? For starters they could use a thermostat to control the heaters instead of turning them on is october and letting them go full out until april, that would save a ton of money.You know its bad when you have to open your windows in the middle of a winter blizzard to cool down your room to a comfortable level. I'v only been in one PMQ on base, and it was a mess, but the people who lived there were very messy, so its hard to tell. I heard about a fire in the PMQ's a couple years ago. I geuse to to very bad construction, an electrical fire started in teh basement, and due to the construction of the house, the fire flashed through the walls and in a few minutes the hole house was on fire. From what i have heard, nothing was done to the existing PMQ's. 

[gun plumber]

I know when I lived in Borden on Sask.Blvd,the Q I lived in was drafty and leaky.Heat was my biggest expense.It was killer.At least where I'm at now,heat is included,thank god!

[MrRGoyer]

I think raising the rent for the soldiers is INSANE the soldiers shouldn't even have to pay rent after what they do for this country this is how they repay them the whole situation is ridiculous I hope other people share my opinion 

[Proud Forester]

source, Toronto Sun http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/10/25/684165.html




Mon, October 25, 2004


Grunts stiffed again

Soldiers face up to $100 a month more for housing

By STEPHANIE RUBEC, OTTAWA BUREAU

Borden renters feel 'absolutely 2nd class'


  
 
CANADA'S cash-strapped soldiers living in military homes will see their rents hiked by up to $100 on Nov. 1. Defence department spokesman Tina Crouse said the Canadian Forces Housing Agency will increase rents on bases across the country to bring them in line with surrounding rental prices.

"For the small number of occupants who have not reached appraised shelter values, their rent will continue to increase until they are paying based on the appraised value of their home," Crouse said.

PAY INCREASE APRIL '03

Crouse said about half the military's 15,000 homes and apartments will see a rent increase to a monthly maximum of $100.

The boost comes while soldiers haven't seen their pay increased since April 2003, when they received a 2.5% hike. The lowest-paid private makes $26,616, while a sergeant can receive a maximum salary of $53,484.

Crouse said those rents that are in line with local prices won't be hiked, and some could be lowered if there's been a drop in the rental market.

The agency began increasing rents in 1997 on orders from the Treasury Board. The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. evaluates the value of the home and sets the rent amount.

But CMHC doesn't take into account the substandard construction of many military houses, where poor insulation means skyrocketing heating bills and frozen food in the cupboards.

Some bases are under a boil-water order. And soldiers complain that exterior renovations are only done on homes near busy streets or tourist attractions.

Tory MP Jay Hill said he's got thousands of names on a petition to freeze military rents until the Liberals authorize necessary repair work.

"It's going to take decades to bring the homes up to an acceptable standard at the rate they're investing in them," Hill said.

About 20% of Canadian Forces members live in military quarters at 23 bases across the country.

Hill said the cash crunch in the military has translated into substandard housing and delapidated bases where lawns aren't mowed and potholes don't get filled.

"We're into the bubble situation where they've been deprived of adequate funds for so many years, all of a sudden you reach a crisis point, and that's what's happened with the housing," Hill said.

[Proud Forester]

Toronto Sun again  http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/10/25/684167.html

Borden renters feel 'absolutely 2nd class'

Grunts stiffed again

By JASON BOTCHFORD, TORONTO SUN

Grunts stiffed again


 
 
MILITARY PERSONNEL at CFB Borden say they are being treated like second-class soldiers as another year brings yet another rent hike. Having his rent go up $100 -- 14% -- next month is nothing new for Phil Hoolboom.

The Canadian military aviation technician has suffered through similar rent increases -- which are just about unheard of in the civilian world -- every year since he was posted to CFB Borden four years ago.

When he arrived from Saskatchewan in 2000 his rent was $300. On Nov. 1 it will be $800. On a fixed income, the rapid increase has had a dramatic impact on his quality of life

"It's going to be a lean Christmas this year," Hoolboom, 43, who has two young children and another on the way, said yesterday.

Hoolboom and many others who live at CFB Borden, near Barrie, are incredulous that their rent is set to the going rate of nearby civilian subdivisions.

THEIR HOUSING IS OLD

The problem, they said, is that their aluminum-siding bungalows are more than 40 years old and substandard.

"For us to pay the same as they do in downtown Barrie in new homes is outrageous," Hoolboom said.

It costs the Hoolboom family $185 a month to heat the house in the winter. His wife Anna said they "absolutely feel second class."

Residents at Borden said rent increases are a money grab and all profit as the homes were paid off decades ago.

"They are going to make more in the next two months rent then these homes cost to build," said technician Dan Reardon.

"There is no way you could ever get $500 in rent for these places if they were in (nearby) Angus or Barrie," said Reardon. "It's just not worth it for me to pay rent here when I could be paying down a mortgage. They are driving people into the housing market. But the problem with buying a house is that I am going to get burned when I'm posted somewhere else and forced to sell."

[Proud Forester]

Well we are getting some recognition for being screwed over this. Some public presure to not do this should help.

[garb811]

Axeman:   Not to stir your pot but the way you're describing Lancaster Park makes it sound like the Garrison is miles away from Edmonton.   In actual fact the northern city limit abuts the south edge of the base so it is indeed closer to Edmonton than Morinville, or any other nearby town of any size.   There is even talk from time to time about the city expropriating the land around the base to bring it into the city, but Strathcona County always resists the idea because they don't want to lose the Grants in Lieu of Taxes the base generates.   Considering the amount of development at the North end of 97th Ave in the last several years, you actually have easier access to the some of the "big name" stuff than people who actually live in Edmonton since it's a 5 minute drive (once you're actually off the base) from the Garrison to the shopping area at Namao Corners.   5 years from now the houses and stores will be right at the south edge of the base.   The only "amenity" lacking is public transport, which I agree is a huge problem for families, but on the other hand folks living downtown don't have public transport to access the "free/cheap" stuff like the MFRC and Rec Center like the PMQ folks do, not to mention the brand new elementary school which was just built.

[axeman]

Not to be stirring the pot or anything my point was nice and simple LP is not in edmonton  it is outside the city limits we pay insurance rates as to morinville so why are we not paying costs as to morinville . yes i agree the city has grown leaps and bounds north and there again is talk of approriating the land .there have been many services thrown up towards the base . but the statement that rings true is we are not part of the EDMONTON CITY but the greater area