Topic: "The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[FormerHorseGuard]

I watched  a show on CBC Canada and it was dealing with the first peacekeeping mision to yougo, bonsia ( over there)the CSM ordered all non issued kit to be put away and not to be worn in the field. Not because it was better or worse then the supplied kit but because he wanted all the soldiers in the unit to look like Canadians, he did not want them to mistaken for other soldiers and targeted, or be mistaken for the guns for hire people.

I would have to agree with him on that  point. Once you start changing kit around and  wearing extras you do change the look of the soldier and that  could lead to problems at a distance identifying a soldier as a Canadian, or American, could lead to them ID'd as an unknown and could be shot by either side.  I realize that sounds stupid.  It does make sense in the big picture,  you change how a tank looks and then you think you see an ememy tank and it is your own and you fire upon it.  Chnange the look of A Canadian soldier and you shot one of your own guys or girls.

Other side of the coin to this is.  An issused piece of equipment is tested and retested to the NATO standard, they research and collect data on kit all the time and see how it preforms and if the performance is not up to standard they recall it. Your own purchases leave you to deal with the lack of performace and if there is a break down in your personally owned kit, are you ready  to deal with it on your own. Do you want to risk your store bought vest over the army one and hope they made it to the same standards as the army verst or better?

What  would be next bring your own uniforms to war? everyone dress in what  they think they need to wear? Bring your own fire power, and bring your own comms grear?

I think own knife, under clothes, boots,  underwear, socks, a few comfort items is all you need to provide on your own and some of that is pushing it
just my  thoughts dress like your a Canadian Soldier, act like a Canadian Soldier and not a war surplus poster

[Britney Spears]

I watched  a show on CBC Canada and it was dealing with the first peacekeeping mision to yougo, bonsia ( over there)the CSM ordered all non issued kit to be put away and not to be worn in the field. Not because it was better or worse then the supplied kit but because he wanted all the soldiers in the unit to look like Canadians, he did not want them to mistaken for other soldiers and targeted, or be mistaken for the guns for hire people.

I would have to agree with him on that  point. Once you start changing kit around and  wearing extras you do change the look of the soldier and that  could lead to problems at a distance identifying a soldier as a Canadian, or American, could lead to them ID'd as an unknown and could be shot by either side.  I realize that sounds stupid.  It does make sense in the big picture,  you change how a tank looks and then you think you see an ememy tank and it is your own and you fire upon it.  Chnange the look of A Canadian soldier and you shot one of your own guys or girls.

Other side of the coin to this is.  An issused piece of equipment is tested and retested to the NATO standard, they research and collect data on kit all the time and see how it preforms and if the performance is not up to standard they recall it. Your own purchases leave you to deal with the lack of performace and if there is a break down in your personally owned kit, are you ready  to deal with it on your own. Do you want to risk your store bought vest over the army one and hope they made it to the same standards as the army verst or better?

What  would be next bring your own uniforms to war? everyone dress in what  they think they need to wear? Bring your own fire power, and bring your own comms grear?

I think own knife, under clothes, boots,  underwear, socks, a few comfort items is all you need to provide on your own and some of that is pushing it
just my  thoughts dress like your a Canadian Soldier, act like a Canadian Soldier and not a war surplus poster

  Oh god make it stop make it stop make it stop

[devil39]

Well, different strokes for different folks.

Canadian soldiers will look like Canadian soldiers regardless whether I let them (and have) wear civvy hiking boots or chest rigs, etc.  We also do our level best to keep track of the location of troops under our command.  I never had any problems identifying Canadian soldiers on operations, and some of them wore very different kit.  Not to mention I have had Brits, Yanks (SOF types too), and many many journalists attached on operations I have conducted.  I didn't make them dress up like Canadians.  Didn't shoot any of them either.

Look like a Canadian soldier, dress to survive and be most effective in the field I would say.  Until the Army provides the perfect field kit for all environments (which will never happen), I'm happy to allow modifications to suit the needs.  Mindless uniformity should have gone out with the order to "Form Square" and "Form Line" while dressed in scarlets and white cross belts.

[Lone Wolf AT]

if you look at a guy in CADPAT TV or another CADPAT chest rig I doubt you'd be able to see the difference from over 20 feet away.

devil39 I hope there are more out there like you.

[BITTER PPLCI CPL]

Who ever wrote that quote is right out to lunch. First of all if you can't identify your own vehicles (there aren't too many to recognize) then you shouldn't be behind or in the turret, launcher, etc. Just because someone is wearing different combat boots, jesus, is not going to give him a 3rd head and turn him purple! Once again, SITUATIONAL AWARENESS, know your allies and your enemies. There is this thing called the Internet, and on it you can find every piece of gear that our allies (including us, who would have thought eh!) use. NATO standards? Now there is a contradiction in terms! The Canadian gov't spent almost $1 million on this tac-vest, why? And the rucksack, when are we going to see this, 2870? Look at our allies and the gear their using, a s*** load is commercially purchased and it appear's their countries are still democratic! Like I've stated once somewhere, uniformity doesn't win battles and if you want to be garrison kiss *** then join a parade unit. Professional soldiers want to do that, and that encompasses a lot (god forbid that), if soldiers want to use issued kit, fine, if they want to buy their own, it's their own $$$, no one else. And what is looking Canadian?

[BITTER PPLCI CPL]

Devil39, I stated exactly what you said, just a with a little more sarcasm!

[Old Ranger]

Devil39,

That last Post almost makes me want to re-enlist

[Matt_Fisher]

I watched   a show on CBC Canada and it was dealing with the first peacekeeping mision to yougo, bonsia ( over there)the CSM ordered all non issued kit to be put away and not to be worn in the field. Not because it was better or worse then the supplied kit but because he wanted all the soldiers in the unit to look like Canadians, he did not want them to mistaken for other soldiers and targeted, or be mistaken for the guns for hire people.

I would have to agree with him on that   point. Once you start changing kit around and   wearing extras you do change the look of the soldier and that   could lead to problems at a distance identifying a soldier as a Canadian, or American, could lead to them ID'd as an unknown and could be shot by either side.   I realize that sounds stupid.   It does make sense in the big picture,   you change how a tank looks and then you think you see an ememy tank and it is your own and you fire upon it.   Chnange the look of A Canadian soldier and you shot one of your own guys or girls.

Other side of the coin to this is.   An issused piece of equipment is tested and retested to the NATO standard, they research and collect data on kit all the time and see how it preforms and if the performance is not up to standard they recall it. Your own purchases leave you to deal with the lack of performace and if there is a break down in your personally owned kit, are you ready   to deal with it on your own. Do you want to risk your store bought vest over the army one and hope they made it to the same standards as the army verst or better?

What   would be next bring your own uniforms to war? everyone dress in what   they think they need to wear? Bring your own fire power, and bring your own comms grear?

I think own knife, under clothes, boots,   underwear, socks, a few comfort items is all you need to provide on your own and some of that is pushing it
just my   thoughts dress like your a Canadian Soldier, act like a Canadian Soldier and not a war surplus poster

Sorry mate, but from a previous post you made, isn't your experience pretty much limited to Reserve Finance Clerk?  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,33430.msg251500.html#msg251500
"When i was res fin clerk in the army   total course time and i was trained to a ql6a was 6 weeks of total classroom training and that was it."

Do you have any overseas tours?   If not, you might want to stay in your own lane.

From my experience, it doesn't matter what uniform/kit you're weaing overseas.   If the locals decide that they don't want you there it doesn't matter if you're wearing cadpat head to toe or a bozo the clown outfit, they're going to 'let their opinions' be known.

[Unknown Factor]

if you look at a guy in CADPAT TV or another CADPAT chest rig I doubt you'd be able to see the difference from over 20 feet away.

Isn't this the truth!  I'd suggest that we should test this in Basic any future Canadian soldier that is unable to recognize another at a min of 20' is booted out!  If it is green or Cadpat wear it, uniformity is to be left for the parade square not the battlefield. Besides if all the new guys are encouraged to wear their own stuff, the enemy might just think that they are in charge and shoot them first, giving the rest of us enough time to duck! - oh and get some free kit once the firefight is over!

But for all those regimental types that still insist that an effective fighting force is dictated by the uniformity of their clothing all the way up to their ability to dress off on a frontal attack I'd say get you head out of your arse and put yourself in the shoes of the soldiers posting here that are working the beat and not the desk.  Experience will always over ride TI and rank, so find some and then post, until then go home and cover off your tin soldiers! To the rest, I simpathize with your plight and encourage you to carry on the good fight - "we'll wear what you want us to on parade, but we'll wear what we want in the field and on operations."

Oh and FormerHorseGuard - there is no NATO standard, if there was we'd all be wearing the same kit and just because it is made in bulk does not guarantee it's quality either, I've seen more returns and repairs required for the new LBV than I ever did with the old webbing.

[pappy]

Matt, boy do I understand those 4/4/4's sucks....   when I was a young pup Marine I thought Guard Duty sucks as a PFC can't wait till I'm Sgt. of the Guard, wow that's the ticket....  So young so stupid....  SOG was even worse.....

Back to the original question...  some non-issue kit makes life a tad more comfy.  a nice light weight wind shirt you can wear under your issue combats is worn it's weight in gold and the good ones don't weigh much and pack the size of a wallet.

"Superfeet" inserts, Comfy non-issue socks, you only got two feet keep them happy....

Comfy shorts / briefs.... you only got two of those too so keep them comfy too Under Armor or like items

Shades, two pair at least, you got two eyes too, don't piss them off either....

[pappy]

Oh yeah, chest rigs.... hummm I haven't seen any of the HSGI chest rigs in CADPAT, but the Multicam ones I have are great.  I highly recommend Gene's work.  Nice units.
One in CADPAT way cuase less stress with the higher ups and help keep you looking like everyone else.

[Scotty]

Oh yeah, chest rigs.... hummm I haven't seen any of the HSGI chest rigs in CADPAT,

http://www.davesarmysurplus.com/index.php?cPath=21

Now you have.

[PhilB]

pappy, do you have a weesatch? and if so how is it. Ive heard that it is fairly uncomfortable without the plates, fairly unstabble. Im considering one but I dont want to be restricted to only wearing it with plates in. The rigs im considering are 1) HSGI Weesatch 2) ESSTAC PMB 3) ESSTAC Bush Boar any thoughts anyone?

[pappy]

lol thanks Scm77, I think my comment should have been "I haven't had a CADPAT HSGI vest in my hands yet"    he he he wanna send me one?   lol
I did check with that site a few days ago when someone started a thread about HGSI in CADPAT, didn't have to one I wanted, on well maybe next time.

One thing sort of what someone else mentioned.... what if your supprised by some dog & pony show with the general staff showing up and eyeballing your non-issue kit...
Just grab your buddy wearing the issue gear, clamly enlighten the questioner about what you private purchase gear can do that the Issue gear won't.   Don't say "it looks cool", but stating clearly what people like Andyboy, Matt and KevinB have to say then maybe the chances of issue gear getting even better will   happen (design for and on the battlefield with input for the informed ones, not by some guy in the rear with a list of crap and the only concept of combat was the argument he had with his wife that morning)

Having the honor of chatting with Andyboy from time to time it's a shame the people signing his check didn't listen to what he was telling them.

Marines like Matt are helping the USMC get better kit too, how many changes have been made since you joined Matt? ALICE to MOLLE to MOLLE II, etc, etc.

Kit is changing fast, some times the end user has to shove it in the face of command to make them see the light, just do it smartly and wisely, pick your battles wisly.

But bitching about kit/chow/shore leave, that's as old as camp followers, it will never end as the truth is kit is continuosly changing and adapting.

[pappy]

Phill, no Wa Wee or Wo - satch yet, looking at one though.  I've got a couple of Warlords and I like them a lot.

The Wa/Wee/Wo's where designed I believe to be plate carriers, Gene at HSGI would be the better guy to talk too about that, don't want to put words in is month or he'll put his foot up my.....

The newer style dual buckel Wee's might be better fit wise.  Most people say to use the optional shoulder strap pads in no body armor. But I'm assuming your going to be wearing your kelvar.

You might want to browse the HSGI fourm and ask a few questions to WEE/WA/WO users

No experience with the ESSTAC chest rigs personally.

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

 In regards to the original question, I would suggest you mail off all your gucci kit to yourself overseas. On roto 0 we were directed that two of our barrack boxes contain a kit list verbatim leaving a box for civies etc. If you mail the stuff and can't wear it then you can always mail it back and not affect the space in your bb for pers kit.

 My next question is what kit do you expect to need over there? Will there be a need to buy a chest rig that holds eight grenades and a double load of ammo?
Worst case scenario you will be doing a dismounted patrol in section size with a quick reaction force on standby. IED's are the weapon of choice in the ghan and a full blown fire fight is unlikely.

 Allthough we would all like to have the best kit, sadly our military can hardly afford to get us enough troops to serve the CF. If you think I am singing out my A**
then please quote me one instance on any canadian tour where a piece of fabric has saved the life of a soldier.

[PhilB]

Im expecting several things. Whether or not you actually need them Ive heard that you are usually issued 10mags, where do you put them on the tacvest? I have heard, and seen (on my own vest) the substandard quality. The vest falls apart after any kind of hard use. I do not want to be in a situation where I need my equipment and it fails. Id rather spend the money on something that can be relied on

[Old Ranger]

  please quote me one instance on any Canadian tour where a piece of fabric has saved the life of a soldier.

Did a Canadian Officer wearing a Blue Beret stop a fire fight in Cyprus?

Stretching the issue, maybe.....Maybe I'll crawl into something deeper than a Shell scrape.

[BITTER PPLCI CPL]

Hey shelldrake, it's not an exercise in Canada, your not going to be carrying 5 mags and 2 t-flashes. It's an extremely dangerous theatre (Kandahar, I know I've been there!), try 10-12 mags and more than 2 grenades. When we were there, I had 3 boxes of C-9 on my webbing and one on my weapon, plus an M72 and about 4-5 grenades. There is a reason some of the troops want to purchase their own gear. The tac-vest is ok, but it can hardly hold a combat load of gear, not to mention a kit list of s*** that some garritrooper wants his troops to have!

[the 48th regulator]

Oh and FormerHorseGuard - there is no NATO standard, if there was we'd all be wearing the same kit and just because it is made in bulk does not guarantee it's quality either, I've seen more returns and repairs required for the new LBV than I ever did with the old webbing.

whoa whoa,

What about the old double double from timmy's!!  Have I am been kidding myself when I have called it a NATO standard to the gal??

dileas

tess

[ObedientiaZelum]

I watched  a show on CBC Canada and it was dealing with the first peacekeeping mision to yougo, bonsia ( over there)the CSM ordered all non issued kit to be put away and not to be worn in the field. Not because it was better or worse then the supplied kit but because he wanted all the soldiers in the unit to look like Canadians, he did not want them to mistaken for other soldiers and targeted, or be mistaken for the guns for hire people.

I would have to agree with him on that  point. Once you start changing kit around and  wearing extras you do change the look of the soldier and that  could lead to problems at a distance identifying a soldier as a Canadian, or American, could lead to them ID'd as an unknown and could be shot by either side.  I realize that sounds stupid.  It does make sense in the big picture,  you change how a tank looks and then you think you see an ememy tank and it is your own and you fire upon it.  Chnange the look of A Canadian soldier and you shot one of your own guys or girls.

Other side of the coin to this is.  An issused piece of equipment is tested and retested to the NATO standard, they research and collect data on kit all the time and see how it preforms and if the performance is not up to standard they recall it. Your own purchases leave you to deal with the lack of performace and if there is a break down in your personally owned kit, are you ready  to deal with it on your own. Do you want to risk your store bought vest over the army one and hope they made it to the same standards as the army verst or better?

What  would be next bring your own uniforms to war? everyone dress in what  they think they need to wear? Bring your own fire power, and bring your own comms grear?

I think own knife, under clothes, boots,  underwear, socks, a few comfort items is all you need to provide on your own and some of that is pushing it
just my  thoughts dress like your a Canadian Soldier, act like a Canadian Soldier and not a war surplus poster

but because he wanted all the soldiers in the unit to look like Canadians

And what exactly do canadians look like? Am i any less canadian because I paid $75 out of my pocket to put vibram soles on my boots instead of wearing the mk3s? Less of a soldier because I bought knee pads. Or those guys who buy their own chest rigs to upgrade their equipment (and ability to fight)? Thats just crazy.  The peopel were worried about looking canadian too can't tell the difference.

I would have to agree with him on that  point. Once you start changing kit around and  wearing extras you do change the look of the soldier and that  could lead to problems at a distance identifying a soldier as a Canadian, or American, could lead to them ID'd as an unknown and could be shot by either side.  I realize that sounds stupid.  It does make sense in the big picture,  you change how a tank looks and then you think you see an ememy tank and it is your own and you fire upon it.  Chnange the look of A Canadian soldier and you shot one of your own guys or girls.

 
Give our soldiers more credit. We don't shoot people because they are wearing non-issue kit.
An AK47, sandles and a robe or whatever? Ya maybe.

Other side of the coin to this is.  An issused piece of equipment is tested and retested to the NATO standard, they research and collect data on kit all the time and see how it preforms and if the performance is not up to standard they recall it.

Like the LSVW?
They didn't recall that sucker, they re-wrote the test until it passed.

Do  mechanics have a kitlist for their tool box?  And their not allowed to purchase or use their own tools if they can perform their job better?
Who is going to know more  what a soldier requires on the ever changing battlefield.
Someone who buys equipment according to requirement AND political reasons (Buy something from quebec first) or a private, corporal or sergant whos face to face with the bad guys?

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

 I think we can all agree that the T & E system needs a heck of alot of work. They are given lets say four items to chose from that are based on a set maximum price, and have to chose the best out of the four even if they are all inferior. Then usually the item is chosen based on where it will be produced (federal riding) and voila we have our "clothe the soldier" item.

 Of course this is my opinion but look at the kit track record. As for gucci kit for overseas I believe most section commanders going overseas have an idea of the kit required for the mission before ever leaving Canada, and should be given the leaway to have mission specific non issued equipment purchased for everyone requiring it. Keeping in mind not everyone on the tour will require it.

[BITTER PPLCI CPL]

Everything shelldrake is on par with my opinion, however there are section commanders (not all) that are right out of her! They are the kind that would agree with the stupid article we've been talking about in the past few days. You want to talk about federal ridings come to CFB Shilo, we are the most recent example's on how Canadian liar's, I mean politicians can out rank and over rule NDHQ any day of the week, but then the people at NDHQ might as well put on suits and ties, because they sure don't act like soldiers once they get there!

[E.R. Campbell]

I though about posting this in Equipment but it is news (maybe not to those of us who are regular readers of the Army.ca Equipment forum).  It is from today’s National Post and it is reproduced here under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=9ac80bc5-13b5-42a3-8941-b396d87a19ff

Troops spending their own money on equipment
Boots, vests bought: 'The stuff the army issues is useless,' one soldier says

Richard Foot
CanWest News Service

Monday, March 20, 2006

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - Canada's front line combat troops in Afghanistan may belong to a national army, but much of their clothing and equipment on this mission is privately owned -- paid for out of their own pockets -- because the gear supplied by the military is inadequate, soldiers say.

More than a dozen soldiers, who were interviewed during operations this month north of Kandahar, say the non-shooting equipment issued by the military simply isn't comfortable, strong enough or safe enough for this rugged and dangerous mission.

While their actual uniforms are all military-issue, many soldiers say they spent hundreds, and in some cases thousands, of dollars of their own money on everything from desert boots to ammunition vests before coming to Afghanistan.

"I dropped a grand on gear before I came over here," says one non-commissioned officer with the 1st Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, who asked that his name not be published.

"The stuff the army issues is useless."

While some soldiers do wear their army-issued desert boots, most appear to be wearing their own boots, purchased at a private kit shop back at their base in Edmonton or from mail-order military Web sites. They say the boots handed out by the army are too stiff and heavy for long, multi-day marches over the rugged Afghan terrain.

The army-issued tactical vests -- designed to carry ammunition, grenades, bayonets and other supplies -- are also inadequate, soldiers say. The vests supplied by the army, for example, carry only four magazines of rifle ammunition.

"Whose going to survive on four mags in a firefight?" asks another 1st Battalion soldier. "I carry 10 mags every time I climb out of the LAV [light armoured vehicle]. If we get into a fight with the enemy, four mags aren't going to cut it.

"The army stuff is OK in Canada, but over here your life depends on good gear," he adds.

As a result, most of the troops are wearing a mishmash of privately purchased "tac-vests," boots, rucksacks, cold-weather clothing, and other gear.

And while many infantry troops say they've grown accustomed to providing their own gear, what they can't understand is why they're being treated as what they describe as "second-class citizens" at the base at Kandahar airfield.

Of the 2,200 Canadian military personnel in Kandahar this year, only about 500 are front line combat soldiers. The rest are support troops -- logistics, planning and transport staff, plus supply clerks and other administration workers who, unlike the infantry, rarely leave the relative safety and comfort of this base.

While these rear echelon troops are being housed in dry, semi-private dome tents built upon concrete slabs, Canada's combat troops, also known as the "battle group," are being housed together, hundreds at a time, in three much-hated giant white tents, known by the soldiers as BATs, or "big *** tents."

The BATs offer no privacy. They leak when it rains. And instead of concrete floors, the ground inside is gravel and dirt.

The BATs are also filled with rows of tiny bunk beds, so small and flimsy that many soldiers can't fit on them.

Unlike the housing for the support troops, the infantry BATs are located far from the Canadian e-mail tents and recreation facilities on the base.

"It's fine for guys like us to live in the mud out on operations," says Master Cpl. Keith Prodonick, an experienced front line soldier. "That's what we do. But when I go back to base, I want a dry tent and a bed that doesn't break."

First Battalion soldiers grilled Gen. Rick Hillier, Canada's chief of defence staff, about the BAT controversy during his surprise visit with the troops in the field earlier this month.

"The boys were asking Hillier, 'Why do the support people get the good shacks and we get the BATs,' " Master Cpl. Prodonick says. "We don't want better, we want the same as everyone else."

Army officials here say the military is constructing better, more permanent housing for the infantry troops at Kandahar airfield, but the new accommodation isn't likely to be ready until the summer, when the 1st Battalion goes home after its six-month tour.

© National Post 2006

[KevinB]

Gee maybe someone will now fire the incompetant clowns in CTS now...