Author Topic: The Arctic Military Base Thread [merged]  (Read 35574 times)

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Offline blueboy

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The Arctic Military Base Thread [merged]
« on: January 27, 2006, 15:03:43 »
I'm just wondering what the feel is on Harpers' proposal to open a new base in the high Arctic and to have both the Army and Navy positioned to protect Canada's interests in the region? I was speaking to some Army Senior NCO's about it and they said it appears that it will be a tough go to find the personnel to go north. They were also stating that the site at Iqualuit is probably the best site available. Any comments?

Modified to correct thread title
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 11:14:45 by Ex-Dragoon »
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Offline ObedientiaZelum

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2006, 15:11:58 »
Quote
I was speaking to some Army Senior NCO's about it and they said it appears that it will be a tough go to find the personnel to go north.

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Offline Kirkhill

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2006, 15:48:40 »
How do they find staff for Alert or Yellowknife?
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Offline 0tto Destruct

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2006, 15:52:27 »
Pretty much the same way they do it for any other base. If you're a regular they post you. If you're in the 'Mo you apply for a gig (normally a 3-year contract).

Main difference is that you have to do a screening (both are considered an 'Isolated Post').

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Offline TB

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2006, 15:55:17 »
Alert is a 6 months posting plus bonus and you get a medal....indeed you are. I know that Alert is mostly civilian and researcher now.
Yellowknife? well I know that my boss wants to go. He's crazy enough or his wife but whatever. I guess also are intitle to bonus over there but I might be wrong.
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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2006, 16:05:40 »
Alert is a 6 months posting plus bonus and you get a medal....indeed you are. I know that Alert is mostly civilian and researcher now.
Yellowknife? well I know that my boss wants to go. He's crazy enough or his wife but whatever. I guess also are intitle to bonus over there but I might be wrong.
cheers
You know your living in a shitty place when soldiers get a medal for being there.

Sorry, just an observation.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2006, 17:51:04 »
Man I hope my home port division stays East Coast vice the Arctic.....*shudder*
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2006, 18:25:11 »
HMCS Archangel has a nice ring to it...
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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2006, 18:25:32 »
A posting up north to Whitehorse, Yellowknife or Fobisher Bay (sorry don't remember its new name of hand) would be ok for 2-3 yrs. People who go up North for postings usually enjoy thier time up there.
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Offline BulletMagnet

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2006, 18:36:03 »
Post me up North and I might just kill myself or likely someone else  ;D

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Offline sheikyerbouti

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2006, 19:13:46 »
 Wisecracks aside... as can only be expected from uninformed individuals.

 It doesn't seem like there would be much, in terms of personnel strength, that would be necessary to maintain a staff level if there is to be a deep water berth at Iqaluit.

 If you read the proposal from the economic development officer of Iqaluit (Google it), the proposal calls for 1 (ONE) deepwater berth with a draught of something like 10 meters along with one hydraulic refuelling boom. I must re-emphasize that the proposal calls for one berth only and maps of Innuit head indicate that there isn't alot of extra space. One berth means no permanent moorage for anyone, let alone the CF.

 Such a tiny facility implies minimal staffing requirements that are best filled by regional staff, perhaps an all-Inuit corps that supports Ranger activities. Along with basing (read warehouse or the like) support for surge activities there would only be a need for a very small strength that would only grow during training or sovereignty patrol by Naval forces (probably more Kingston's). The best way to look at it is as a long term lease arrangement with the port, possibly defrayed by in kind exchanges ie: Fuel from Ship's tanks, or extra cargo shipments via CF aircraft or boats. Economic development in Iqaluit is drastically hindered at this point in time by the nature of Cargo and fuel offloading and anything which ameliorates the current situation would be looked upon favourably by the Nunavut government.
 
 Iqaluit is more interested with bringing in economic activity that promotes growth and employment within their existing population base. A CF involvement would be welcomed but only if it doesn't interfere with the identified needs that are currently in demand by its' populace.

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Offline Glorified Ape

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2006, 22:28:09 »
I'm just wondering what the feel is on Harpers' proposal to open a new base in the high Arctic and to have both the Army and Navy positioned to protect Canada's interests in the region? I was speaking to some Army Senior NCO's about it and they said it appears that it will be a tough go to find the personnel to go north. They were also stating that the site at Iqualuit is probably the best site available. Any comments?

I understand that the pay up there is pretty decent. I'd go - I like money and it'd be an experience.
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Offline 3rd Horseman

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2006, 02:36:16 »
We have Alert...YellowKnife....Goosebay....Cold lake do we really need another Northern base? Can anyone remember Churchill nice base in its day, we closed it as it was not required. No need for another northern unit. Have any of these wise crackers who thought this up ever patrolled up there? Arctic defense tactics dont require that we have a forward base up north.  All that is required for Arctic patrols is a navy with Ice breaker capability and nuc subs to go under the ice, that is why the last Conservative government was buying them. Instead we got the next best thing that will not go under the ice thus the subs we bought are useless to us(well not completely) .
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Offline Slim

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2006, 03:06:30 »
Wisecracks aside... as can only be expected from uninformed individuals.

Cool it.

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Offline Kirkhill

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2006, 17:10:23 »
3rd Horseman:

You seem to agree that the 3 ice-breakers are not an undesirable purchase.  The proposal calls for 500 personnel to man them and support them.  The Norwegian Icebreaker discussed here
 ( http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,38894.0.html )has a crew of 52 (including air det).  Port and Starboard crews for 3 vessels would result in a manning requirement of ~300 PYs, allow another 100 for forward support and 100 for command and rear area support and you have 500 PYs.

Those ships need local forward support otherwise they are going to spend a lot of time off station.  Therefore they need a useable port in their AO.  Iqaluit and Nunavut generally could use port facilities.  There doesn't seem to be a conflict of needs there to me.

I have mentioned before that I have worked a lot in the past with the American fishing fleets in Alaska.  These vessels are homeported in Seattle, roughly the same size as a frigate or one of these icebreakers (American Triumph is typical of the large trawlers. She was built by the same yard that built the Svalbard for a fishing company owned by the owner of the yard -Kjell Inge Rokke - has a gross tonnage of 4294 tonnes , a Length Over All of 285 feet and carries a crew of 130 - 80% processors and 20% ships crew at a guess http://www.atsea.org/association/amsea.html) and operate out of Dutch Harbor in the Aleutians on a seasonal basis.  Dutch Harbor supplies the forward operating location (FOL) while Seattle supplies the fleet maintenance facility (FMF).  Dutch is lightly manned on a year round basis with surge man-power added during operational periods.  It seems like a reasonable plan to me for operating the 'breakers.

As to the Cambridge Bay base - the PY allocation there is supposedly 100 persons to maintain the facility for training purposes.  Is there anything to say that all those 100 persons have to be there year round or could they float in and out depending on usage.

Finally, wrt sovereignty patrols and training it seems to me that they go hand in hand.  Rather than running up and down Shirley Road or doing circles around Wainwright why not do more training in the back of beyond sending out platoon/coy teams for a week or two?  The time spent in isolation and dependent on the radio would do more to teach junior leaders about management and logistic skills than all the running around bases ever could.  It would also quickly demonstrate who the leaders were.  This would be done in a taxing but non-threatening envirionment.  Tactical skills can be taught on controlled bases.  It would be expensive but it would also demonstrate that we consider this turf ours - we can deploy the government's forces here anytime without asking permission.

I don't get the sense that we are talking about recreating something like Pet or Valcartier above the Arctic Circle.  Perhaps something more like Dundurn.
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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2006, 19:34:34 »
Quote
All that is required for Arctic patrols is a navy with Ice breaker capability and nuc subs to go under the ice, that is why the last Conservative government was buying them. Instead we got the next best thing that will not go under the ice thus the subs we bought are useless to us(well not completely) .

I don't recall Kim Campbell ever mentioning SSNs...
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2006, 19:38:43 »
It would also quickly demonstrate who the leaders were.  This would be done in a taxing but non-threatening point. 

I agree completely with Kirkhill's post, with one minor point.

If you can command and lead in a hostile, austere environment like the arctic, then Wainwright is a cake-walk and A'stan is do'able. Although suicide bombers and IEDs are pretty much unheard of in the arctic, it is far from a non-threatening environment! That's why it makes for such a great training AO.

Way back when....when I did the arctic survival portion of my SAR Tech course, we had to go up the following year to complete it since we got weathered out. While I don't want to inflate SAR Techs' egos any more   ;), if SAR figures the weather's too inhospitable for "Igloo Architecture 101," your average infantry company may find it a rather threatening environment.

While I assume you meant incoming rounds, please don't think that just because no one is shooting at you that you're in a non-threatening environment.
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Offline Kirkhill

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2006, 19:44:50 »
Thanks for the tip of the hat Journeyman and your point about non-threatening is well taken and understood.  I was indeed just referring to incoming rounds.

Cheers
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Offline Praetorian

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2006, 19:52:11 »
Arctic Sovereignty is essential for Canada
However an Army Det would do little good
The Americans want to use the north as a passage for maritime commerce
Kinda like a Northern Panama.
The North is the Navy's primary concern, the Army cant do much against ships dozens of miles out to sea.
It is also a well documented fact that USN SSN regularly do under ice transits, which is why strong pressure was put on the grits to halt a Canadian SSN project by the yanks .
Additionaly Denmark is making noise over Hans Island ( a 2 km sq. rock)
Once again only Warships are capable of defending that land (we've boarded Danish vessels in the past)
The only time the army could be needed is in an invasion of Greenland  ;)

So what we need for the North is not a base, but a Navy capable of getting up there.
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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2006, 19:58:06 »
Praetorian:

The concept of marching your borders is as old as time and it is still the only sure cure for recognition of claims in international law.  It is for that reason that Denmark has their Sirius patrols doing circles around the coast of Greenland securing the world's second largest ice cube. If we can kill two birds with one stone: supply effective training that makes for more capable leaders and troops as well as firm up our sovereignty claims then I see no harm.

Cheers.
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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2006, 22:38:23 »
Quote
(we've boarded Danish vessels in the past)

Out of curiousity when?
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline GK .Dundas

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2006, 01:32:17 »
Arctic Sovereignty is essential for Canada
However an Army Det would do little good
The Americans want to use the north as a passage for maritime commerce
Kinda like a Northern Panama.
The North is the Navy's primary concern, the Army cant do much against ships dozens of miles out to sea.
It is also a well documented fact that USN SSN regularly do under ice transits, which is why strong pressure was put on the grits to halt a Canadian SSN project by the yanks .
Additionaly Denmark is making noise over Hans Island ( a 2 km sq. rock)
Once again only Warships are capable of defending that land (we've boarded Danish vessels in the past)
The only time the army could be needed is in an invasion of Greenland  ;)

So what we need for the North is not a base, but a Navy capable of getting up there.


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Offline 3rd Horseman

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2006, 10:09:00 »
I don't recall Kim Campbell ever mentioning SSNs...

  It was Mulronys government he ordered them.....Kimmy didn't have a government she was just holding the tiller for a few months as the ship went down.

  I'm getting visions of "Ice Station Zebra".....Lets face it no army can fight on the high arctic, any one that does is domed to failure. The doctrine to fight in our arctic is to wait and let an army invade  and cut there supply line and leave them to freeze on the ice. The army's job in that is only to provide recce assets to monitor and fix in place if needed but not to defeat. The strategy for the Arctic has been and should continue to be Navy and air patrols with recce assets capable of maneuver anywhere in the high arctic. Yellow Knife and Goosebay coupled with Bagotville and Cold lake solve this issue less the Navy. The Navy need arctic war ships which they do not have, a Cdn war ship has too thin a skin to fight up there thus the Nuc subs and armed ice breakers. The navy can solve this issue from its current bases they just need the kit.
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Offline gnplummer421

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2006, 11:12:00 »
I like the idea of our Nortern Rangers looking after things up there.It's their home and they know how to survive. I hear they are pretty good shots too. I think we have lot of aboriginal folks up there who could use a decent paying job. Place the main headquarters of this unit near the deep water port, and with detached companies of Rangers throughout the region - 5000 sounds about right (thoughts?) Give them some nice snowmobiles that can hold enough stuff to live for a week. They could also respond to area domestic disputes in support of the Lawmen. It would inspire the young people as well, something to strive for. They would have a unique "Northern Command" patch on their shoulders along with trade and rank badges. Those who perform above and beyond the call of duty would get a medal unique to the Forces.  Maybe I'm getting carried away, but do you think this would be good?

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Re: Tories Propose new base in the high Artic
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2006, 12:24:29 »
Quote
It was Mulronys government he ordered them
Yes but it was specified the last Conservative government ordered them, might be just sematics but she was the last PC PM in power, even if holding the reigns for several months. And no they were never iordered, Perrin Beatty presented them as an option. No contracts were ever signed.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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