Author Topic: Respect our values or Leave  (Read 52340 times)

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Offline Kirkhill

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2006, 21:21:08 »
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Absolute liberty to do anything is, it seems to me, just more Rousseauistic drivel: an excuse to not try harder, to simply drift down to the lowest tolerable societal level.  I mistrust the concept. 

I once heard absolute liberty in this sense defined as licence, as in licentious behaviour.  Liberty was the freedom of the individual to act responsibly or accept the consequences when they failed to act within the rules of society.
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2006, 21:52:23 »

Just to help clarify the source of the above quote presented by 48Highlander:

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/008045.php

Quote
February 04, 2006
We Have Met the Enemy, and He Is Us
by Guest Author at February 4, 2006 10:44 AM

by Matt McIntosh of Conjectures and Refutations

    "I know the evil of my ancestors because I am those people. ....

http://conjecturesandrefutations.net/weblog/?page_id=8

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About the Author

The author, Matt McIntosh, is an Ontarian college student with a professional interest in digital systems and networking. Those are his work, while his play includes an interest philosophy, economics, evolution, and history, among other things. He also pays far more attention to politics than is probably rational. His general philsosophical and political outlook is a frothy brew of Karl Popper, Friedrich Hayek, Daniel Dennett, Thomas Barnett, Steven Pinker, David D. Friedman, Ronald Coase, Thomas Schelling, and James M. Buchanan. He has also grown to enjoy mathematics more since leaving high school, and now tries to educate himself in a patchwork fashion.

http://conjecturesandrefutations.net/pictures/me.jpg



Offline 48Highlander

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2006, 23:32:53 »
It is, perhaps, a question of ‘base.’  My ideas are based on Locke, Hume, Smith and Mill; I think Hobbes got it wrong.  You appear to differ.

My ideas don't depend on philosophers.  Blame it on too much exposure to people who quote Chomsky.

With respect to ” near absolute freedom of speech”: how near?  Is shouting fire in a crowded theatre still over the line?  Isn’t hurling gratuitous insults at anyone in the same category, if you understand that it might inflame passions?

Hardly.  In one, the victims have no option but to take the threat seriously.  Yelling fire in a crowded theater is no better than pointing a gun at someones head and saying "I am going to shoot you".  It's a direct threat.  An insult on the other hand depends on the desire of the "victim" to take offence.  It has no effect and no meaning unless the person it is directed at choses to respond.

True, many people can't control anger very well.  More often though, reacting with physical violence when insulted isn't a reaction to the words themselves, but to the perceived slight and the loss of status if one ignores it.  For me personaly, an insult has very little meaning.  I have certainly never struck anyone just because they chose to insult me.  Nor could I picture myself ever reacting in such a way.  What's the point?  Personal insults generaly only display the ignorance of the person offering them.

What do YOU beleive?  That yelling "fire" in a theater, and saying "muslims are suicide bombers" equals to the same thing?  Why, because someone may get offended and become violent?  Come on.  Where does that kind of logic stop?  If you say that you support the war in Iraq, and I get offended by it, will you apologize for that statement?  If I get offended by your use of the word "the", will you remove that word from your vocabulary?

I also wonder if we understand ‘true liberty’ in anything like the same way.

Obviously not.  True liberty is allowing people to do whatever they wish as long as they do not harm others.  "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" as it were.  What do I care if you want to go pump yourself full of drugs, wear a KKK hood, and sodomize goats in the town square.  I beleive a lot of the extreme behaviours people exibit are a result of the fact that those things are forbidden.  So keep it simple - the only things that should be illegal or forbidden are those which harm others, or are clearly intended to harm others, and the punishment for those few crimes should be extreme.  Truth be told I'd prefer a system of vigilantism to enforce the law, but that would depend on people being a lot more mature and responsible than most are.

And no, when I say "harm others" I don't meant "emotionaly harm" or "psychicly cripple", or whatever the newest touchy-feely phrase is.  Words are just words.  They can always be fought with words.

And since my idea of true liberty obviously isn't anywhere near to becoming reality, I'll settle for as close as we can get.  And then I'll push for some more :)

Online E.R. Campbell

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2006, 08:41:36 »
48Highlander seems intent on personalizing ( or, perhaps, individualizing) what should be, I think, a discussion of what I called, a couple of days back, large scale civility,

It seems to me that any kind of liberty, even true liberty, must include a dose of responsibility for society.  I think this is easy to manage in small scale civil societies: families, clans, even villages.  My personal observations, after living/visiting and working in a few different parts of Africa, the Middle East and West Asia is that small scale civility is pretty much the same the world over, but I conclude that large scale civility is much different in those regions than it is in North America, Australia/New Zealand, Western Europe and East Asia.  (I do not think this has much to do with religion, although it might be true that Islam enhances some attributes in e.g Arabic culture which have made successful large scale civility difficult.)

The relative weight of liberty and responsibility seem, to me, to define us as liberal, conservative on the successful side of the large scale civility equation or illiberal or, perhaps, primitive* on the failed side.  I think that liberal Western societies have succeeded in developing a large scale civility which works in the 21st century; ditto conservative East Asian societies.  I think most (many? just some?) Afro-Asian (including Middle Eastern) societies (cultures) failed,** largely because the changes which have been imposed by 500 years of globalization were, largely, imposed by Europeans.  I believe that cultures can succeed if they are either liberal or conservative, although the paths may differ – see The Economist, 21-27 Jan edition, Coming of age, page 10).  I think it is demonstrably impossible for illiberal (most (all?) of Africa) or primitive (Africa/Middle East and West Asia) societies to do the same.  The processes of becoming liberal (or adapting cultural conservatism to a globalized system created (or taken over) by the liberals) has not been easy – in fact it was long and bloody - arguably the European enlightenment only came about because of the experiences of the 16th and early 17th centuries: reformation, civil wars, religious wars, regicide and so on.

Kirkhill makes two important points:

•   For the original, Scottish enlightenment, the nature of society at large was to be based on the positive cultural values of the small scale civility – on the “liberty” which is polished by an ongoing series of the ‘amicable collisions’ which characterize life in the family or clan or village; and

•   Contrary to Jerry Rubin’s adolescent view, liberty ≠ licence.  ”If it feels good, do it!” is precisely what is happening on the streets of Beirut this morning.  This is unrestrained liberty taken to it logical, unconstrained conclusion; this is what Hobbes had in mind; this is why it was, and remains, necessary to affirm that Hobbes was wrong and that in reality we need to polish our liberty by rubbing (not knocking) off the rough edges.

Individuals, sovereign individuals will each react differently to each stimulus and, on balance, it doesn’t matter, to society at large, how a few individuals respond.  What matters is how most of those individuals act, as a group, as a culture, regarding all the things which shape our society, day-by-day and decade-by-decade.  That is the nature of large scale civility.  We, in liberal societies, tend towards protecting the individual from the pressures imposed by law and custom; those in conservative societies want to protect the collective cultural values (expressed in law an custom) from the radical pressures of individuals.  In successful liberal and conservative societies neither tendency is absolute or even extreme.  In failed (mostly primitive or illiberal) cultures we see only the extremes: imposed order by e.g. Big Men and the sort of licence being tolerated in Beirut today.

The point, to go all the way back to the start of this thread, is that we need to affirm the kind of country we want, on in which, as Mr. Costello said, ”… you would [not] feel comfortable if you were opposed to democracy, parliamentary law, independent courts …”  But we need to add a positive to Costello’s negatives: once anyone accepts the foundations of our society and the country which reflects it then they are entitled to all the rights and freedoms which we values, including access to all the virtues of our civility which, I suggest, ought to extend to more than mere tolerance of differences.  I believe that the essence of our secular, liberal democratic society (culture) ought to be that it is respectful and protective of individuals and groups and I believe that is also the essence of good manners.

In my opinion, the sort of true liberty which 48Highlander appears to advocate is nihilistic and, at the end, meaningless and, consequently, destructive of civil society.

We - especially the Anglo-American ‘we’ – have developed an imperfect (to be sure) but workable secular, liberal democratic and polished society/culture.  It is, now, under attack by movements which I have described, elsewhere on army.ca, as: Arabic, extremist, fundamentalist and Islamic.  It seems to me that we must understand what we are defending – we need to know that our ‘large scale civility’ is worth the price which we ask Canadian soldiers to pay.  I do not think that a social construct based on ” What do I care if you want to go pump yourself full of drugs, wear a KKK hood, and sodomize goats in the town square.”{?} qualifies.

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* Many, me included, refer to the medieval mindset of some, especially Middle Eastern cultures (societies)† - the implication is that they are primitive or have, at least, failed to adapt to the ongoing globalization which has characterized the past 500 years.

† I know I am using these two terms interchangeably but neither, in conventional usage, expresses the whole idea I have which is that

** Someone posited, within the last few days, that we are watching Arab-Islamic rage at the dawning realization that they (their cultures (societies)) have failed and that, most likely, they cannot recover the lost ground of the past few centuries.  It is, to me, an intriguing proposition.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
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Offline 48Highlander

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2006, 11:11:37 »
In my opinion, the sort of true liberty which 48Highlander appears to advocate is nihilistic and, at the end, meaningless and, consequently, destructive of civil society.

That right there is the crux of your argument, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.  However, I've heard that argument applied many times.  It's been used to argue against everything from allowing blacks in "our" schools, to legalizing gay marriage.  Any time some new and revolutionary freedom is about to be implemented, there's been individuals who argue that it's "destructive to society".

Who knows, maybe you're all right.  But the sky hasn't fallen on our heads yet, and as far as I'm concerned, the closest we get to absolute freedom the better and more civilized our society becomes.  Your type of polished aristocratical society isn't my idea of what Canada is or should be.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2006, 12:18:25 »
It appears we have just come full circle:

Your type of polished aristocratical society isn't my idea of what Canada is or should be.

Those who do not share our civility have a right, perhaps even a duty to tell us why we might be wrong and how and why we should change our ways.  Some of us might even listen.  Those who cannot accept the society into which they have migrated and which is unwilling to change to suit them must either accept their fate or move on.

48highlander, I would suggest it's time to build your case on more than just your personal opinion, or accept that you do not have a case deserving consideration as a basis for restructuring our society.

Offline 48Highlander

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2006, 12:26:34 »
It appears we have just come full circle:

48highlander, I would suggest it's time to build your case on more than just your personal opinion, or accept that you do not have a case deserving consideration as a basis for restructuring our society.


What?  Restructuring?

I stating, quite clearly I thought, that I disagree with Edwards idea of what our society IS.  We don't live in a Gentlemens Society, where the majority are well behaved, polite, polished aristocrats.  So the sentence you quote from me does not advocate changing our society.

As to the parts of my argument where I WAS advocating changing our society?  What else would you like me to build my case on?  It all boils down to opinion eventually.  The US Declaration of Independance, the Constitution....they were just the amalgamadet opinions of a group of people.  They advocated the type of freedom that I do.

Offline Kirkhill

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2006, 13:20:44 »
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What?  Restructuring?

I stating, quite clearly I thought, that I disagree with Edwards idea of what our society IS.  We don't live in a Gentlemens Society, where the majority are well behaved, polite, polished aristocrats.  So the sentence you quote from me does not advocate changing our society.

48Highlander:  Whatever you think the state of our society IS currently it is in no way comparable to what it WAS prior to the Enlightenment that Edward refers to.  That world was close to your perfect Anarchy (my words in your mouth because that is what it appears to me you are advocating) and in many ways comparable to what we see today in Afghanistan, the Caucasus or the Congo.  Edit:  However far we have to go to achieve or regain (depending on perspective) a "Gentlemen's Society" it is a lot less far than we have already come.

Our polished society resulted from people that were just plain, bone tired of planting people in the ground, building new houses, trying to find new cattle and sheep to replace the ones stolen, dealing with strong men making up laws as they went along.  Eventually they came to the conclusion that somethings just weren't worth the bother.  One of those things not worth the effort was trying to prevent your neighbour from going to hell because he or she didn't bend the knee to God or preferred to be surrounded by images of Saints.  You would both find out in due course who was right.   In the meantime both of you just wanted to get on with your lives.

One type of polishing came from the rise of social clubs like the Masons which admitted all religions and all classes.  These clubs were not the domain of the aristocrats.  They were, amongst other things, places where working men and tradespeople could sit down to supper with the local gentry.  The gentry got to know more about other's problems.  The working men picked up manners by osmosis.  Schools, churches, women's institutes, etc all have contributed to the polishing process.   All have striven to teach toleration, moderation and respect.

I am one who believes that where the system has begun to come apart in recent years is that where in the past those were attributes ascribed to the individual, with the individual determining their own actions, the attributes are now ascribed to our society and society determines the actions of the individual.  The difference between the two situations is that in one instance the individual is free, trusted and respected, and sovereign, while in the other the individual is suborned and constrained by society.  It is the difference between leadership by example and leadership by command.

You may think that a society of absolute freedom (something of an oxymoron there) or license or anarchy (another oxymoron) has it attractions but I put to you that in Iraq the LAST thing that the people over there want is an absence of government.  Their primary desire is for security.  This is no different than the desire of any other people.  The difficulty is trying to create the conditions where they can learn to get along amongst themselves and that requires give and take, toleration, moderation and respect.  When most people get tired enough of the mess around them they will take steps to clean in up themselves.  In the meantime, people being people, would prefer that someone else clean up their mess for them.  Under those circumstances they are susceptible to accepting the pitch of the latest fast talking salesman promising to make things all better.  This is what Will Durant meant when he said “When liberty becomes license, dictatorship is near” .

People cherish order as much as they cherish freedom.  It is impossible to have either in absolute form.  It is necessary to find the middle.

When it comes to dealing with unpolished societies all we can do is set the example, instruct and assist those that see merit in our example, and not forget how much of a struggle it has been to get here.

I was once asked which bear was truly free: a bear in a cage being tended with three squares a day, a bear in a park that is protected from man but has to forage for themself, or a bear in the wild that can be shot on sight.  There is no absolute liberty.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2006, 01:06:48 by Kirkhill »
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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2006, 13:52:06 »
What do I care if you want to go pump yourself full of drugs, wear a KKK hood, and sodomize goats in the town square. 

You have to be careful when you divulge the secret initiation rituals of a group.  They are really fussy about that stuff. :dontpanic:

I think the two camps here sum up as:  the right to say what you want, and even being justified in the face of misbehaviour on others parts and conducting ourselves in a credible manner that is fitting of our excellent country. 
Here in Castle North America we really can do whatever we want to.  Sure you can publish all kinds of defaming items if that is what you are in to, and you may be held to an accounting.  In states that are theocratically run, they don't always have things like free speech and uncensored journalism.  We do, and maybe take it for granted.  I agree that it is a double standard, but so what?  That is the price of holding the high ground.  There is already so much anti-western sentiment that is being pushed in the middle east and else where that even if we don't do ANYTHING there will be people pushing others to hate us.  So why give them concrete examples of why they should hate us?  You could publish a thousand items flogging the virtues of Islam and what not, but if people are living in a state of information censure, then they won't see it.  But lob out one dumb thing (like a false article about flushing a Koran down the toilet) and it will be out like lightning and linger like cancer.  The bad guys pulling the strings (the extremists) WANT us to fight back so they have more fodder.  If we ignore them, or just keep being nice (whether we mean it or not) we don't give them any fuel. 
It bugs me too, having to eat sh_t and saying "yum".  I am a big fan of massive retaliation and retribution.  But I have to compare this situation to being philosophically the same as when I deal with a person suffering from mental health issues.  I take a lot of time and patience with them, because they can't really help the way they are, they were born with a problem.  I can get mad, and yell and us sheer physical force on them to get my way, but that only makes it worse for the next guy who has to deal with the nummy the next time.  They aren't going to stop being MHA just by putting time in, and they will definitely be dealing with the police over and over.  If the MHA person always has good contacts with the police, they may still have Neil Diamond in their head telling them to put up a silly putty shield and hit the cop with a Ramen noodle sword, but they may hold off because there is a bit of intellect there that says "these guys are okay".  However, if the last contact they had was to get dropped on their head, cuffed and carted off, the next time something happens they will be on the attack from the get go, because that is what they expect. 
Maybe we should put up some mental "Don't poke or throw things at the Arabs" signs.  Eventually they will probably show up here on a refugee claim, and we should be in a position to welcome them, but not cater to them.
God loves stupid people.  That's why He made so many of them.

Of course forests contribute to climate change - you pointless, vacuous wankers.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2006, 17:38:43 »
What?  Restructuring?

I stating, quite clearly I thought, that I disagree with Edwards idea of what our society IS.  We don't live in a Gentlemens Society, where the majority are well behaved, polite, polished aristocrats.  So the sentence you quote from me does not advocate changing our society.

As to the parts of my argument where I WAS advocating changing our society?  What else would you like me to build my case on?  It all boils down to opinion eventually.  The US Declaration of Independance, the Constitution....they were just the amalgamadet opinions of a group of people.  They advocated the type of freedom that I do.

I believe one of the points you are missing is that we do live in a "Gentleman's Society", where societal norms for morality and behaviour tend to tolerance and right to use within stated legal boundaries.  The failure of the few to accept these social responsibilities, who wish their world to resemble Jerry Springer's universe, all the while 'enjoying' the liberties society allows, are insufficient cause to spurn the qualities and advantages of a developed western society which must incorporate some controls on behaviour to maintain acceptable norms.

My point is: that your 'points' do not satisfy the case being argued.

You seem to have no qualms decrying the general approach within Canadian society towards social morality and politeness:

If you truly beleive that being polite is part of "our" moral code, I respectfuly suggest that you must not have been paying attention to recent events.

One has only to look at the conduct of our politicians during the recent election campaign to realize that insults, lies, and misrepresentation of others is still a large part of our society.  Or, look at Carolyn Parish's reaction to "those American Bastards".  We've just shifted targets.  Instead of attacking other religions or races, we attack people based on political beleifs, and a large segment of our society sees nothing wrong with continualy insulting and belittling our souther neighbours.

Your post was very well written, and very nice and idealistic and warm and fuzzy.  But it doesn't live up to reality.  There's nothing polite about our society, we're just not as extreme as some others.

So you're right, the values of our society DO set us apart from "them", however, the values of our society do not accurately reflect who we really are; rather, they reflect what we picture ourselves to be, and what some of us strive to become.

... and you state your personal views are for something radically different:

That's one of the reasons I believe in near absolute freedom of speech.  It's not just that I believe in true liberty, although that's certainly a major part of it.  As it relates to the current clash of civilizations though, I would rather give people the liberty to verbally attack ANY group they chose, than forbid them from attacking only those societies which are in direct competition with our own.

If that does not constitute thinly veiled advocacy for change, then what is it? Hypocrisy, or simply whining?

Your case is built solely on your personal views; easily espoused on the internet when you wish to post words into a vacuum without regard for solid discourse of fundamentals and facts. You spurn Edward's references to philosophers:

My ideas don't depend on philosophers.  Blame it on too much exposure to people who quote Chomsky.

Yet you would surf the net until you find a self-aggrandizing student 'philosopher' who, in a single piece of writing expressed a few sentences that agreed with you:

I just stumbled across an excellent article that does a good job of explaining what I was trying to say.  Unfortunately I can't edit my own posts at the moment, otherwise I would have just added it to my last one :)  Anyway, here it is:

Read more here


Your stated preference, as described by Edward is nihilistic, you would turn over basic principles of western humanity for your own ability to do what you wish:

True liberty is allowing people to do whatever they wish as long as they do not harm others.  "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" as it were.  What do I care if you want to go pump yourself full of drugs, wear a KKK hood, and sodomize goats in the town square.  I beleive a lot of the extreme behaviours people exibit are a result of the fact that those things are forbidden.  So keep it simple - the only things that should be illegal or forbidden are those which harm others, or are clearly intended to harm others, and the punishment for those few crimes should be extreme.  Truth be told I'd prefer a system of vigilantism to enforce the law, but that would depend on people being a lot more mature and responsible than most are.

And no, when I say "harm others" I don't meant "emotionaly harm" or "psychicly cripple", or whatever the newest touchy-feely phrase is.  Words are just words.  They can always be fought with words.

And since my idea of true liberty obviously isn't anywhere near to becoming reality, I'll settle for as close as we can get.  And then I'll push for some more :)

Attempting to separate physical harm from anything psychological or emotional based simply underscores the immature development of your argument. I am certain that many rape and abuse vistims would rush to your banner under this opinion.

Nihilism as a personal philosophy is tolerated, but only in a society free enough to allow such expression, whether it does so under the heading of "rights" or "artistic expression" is immaterial. This is because the social matrix protects the nihilist from the more aggressive retaliations they might fully expect from a surrounding populace who would also believe in complete freedom of action.   But as a societal norm, it would be ultimately destructive, because it has no bounds, no expectations of social responsibility, and no means to generate expectations of good social behaviour supporting the very existence of the society itself.

Perhaps the predominant question, since you turn away from intimations that your point is to advocate change to the principles of a social framework you don't seem to agree with, should be: What exactly is YOUR point?

« Last Edit: February 05, 2006, 19:14:03 by Michael O'Leary »

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2006, 01:08:46 »
Moving in a somewhat different direction here.

One of the problems we are having here in Canada, and to a certain extent in "Old Europe" is the seeming inability to actually define what our values are. We are "tolerent" and "Multicultural", seemingly without limit, and even behaviour which would have seemed outrageous only a few years ago is now considered (officially at least) "the norm". When Canada's defining value is "Health care", how many people will rally to the trumpet?

The consequences range beyond the questions of how certain followers of Islam behave; the "ganstas" who terrorize the citizens of Toronto are almost certainly not followers of Islam, but in some ways they, David Dingwall and the people now pushing the idea of legalized polygamy and polyandry all share certain values in common. In every case, they have no allegiance to any overarching set of values, but are simply in it for themselves and their own personal gain. The Ganstas and David Dingwall are easy to figure out, Ganstas want your money and will personally come out and use force against you to impose their will. Dingwall and his "crew" are a bit more subtle, they use lawyers and creative interpretations of the rules and regulations to extract your money. The polyandrists (for want of a better term) simply want to tear down social constructs which have lasted centuries because it interferes with their own wishes and desires. While many of us might say "who cares if they want to marry five different people?", they also want to use the power of the State to enforce their desires, and of course the State will also be used to extend many privileges and benefits designed to assist the family in its primary duty of child rearing to all these family analogues.

"We" have difficulty countering any of this, since "we" have been denied any framework of reference to do so. Toronto "ganstas" are not greedy amoral monsters, the problem is we are not "inclusive", or "guns" or declining welfare benefits or whatever. Dingwall sits there and demands his "entitlements", even though a person who voluntarily leaves his employment isn't entitled to anything. (Accepting and indeed demanding a severance under these conditions should result in fines and a jail term for fraud and breach of trust). Arguments for polygamy and polyandry are of course identical to the ones for "gay marriage"; any attempt to question these concepts is simply met with a barrage of abuse and a refusal to answer any of the questions raised. Suggesting that parenting and child rearing is a special duty which should be rewarded or protected by society isn't on in these circles, they are simply demanding they get benefits and rewards as well.

The radical Islamist can move in quite nicely in this environment. He is a moral absolutist, who also realizes that "we" cannot or will not support our values, since we have essentially reduced our values to milking the system in order to satisfy our personal wants. Like the gansta, he wants to impose his will, but unlike the gansta, he has a very deep set of values which will sustain him through all kinds of adversity.

Now it is a difficult task to agree on a set of values (much less live up to them), and this sort of project will actually take generations. Americans are raised on a clear set of guiding principles in their Constitution, and are taught these from childhood in their schools, history, mythology and so on. If we want to have the same clarity of purpose as the American Administration, John Howard's Australia, Tony Blair (although the rest of the Labour Party is wavering), then we need to start working on this now.

Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Acorn

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2006, 01:31:25 »
Maybe we should put up some mental "Don't poke or throw things at the Arabs" signs.  Eventually they will probably show up here on a refugee claim, and we should be in a position to welcome them, but not cater to them.

The trouble is we're not dealing with an Internet "don't feed the trolls" type of situation. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.

In any case, I think I have to side with the "civil society" camp, as opposed to 48's offerings. The fact is, we do live in a society with imposed norms of civility and morality, even though we don't see it. Personally, I don't believe that is being eroded, as a_majoor suggests, by our level of tolerance, however, I do see that tolerance being tested.

Edward has quite eloquently defined the issue of values. To recap, we have low-level civil disipline (to redefine the terms) in the family - one shows respect for elders, for example - this transcends culture. On the other we have the macro-societal civil discipline. This can be enforced through religion (Judeo-Cristian and Muslim restrictions - on diet, dress and deportment) or through what Kirkhill describes as "people who are just plain tired..." of an endless cycle of revenge and violence. Our Common Law evolved from that attitude.

Our society is sliding down the slope to barbarism though - less common respect, less civility - maybe we are heading toward 48's "society?"
"Liberal societies cannot be defended by herbivores. We need carnivores to save us." - Michael Ignatieff, The Lesser Evil

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2006, 02:44:22 »

The fact is, we do live in a society with imposed norms of civility and morality, even though we don't see it. Personally, I don't believe that is being eroded, as a_majoor suggests, by our level of tolerance, however, I do see that tolerance being tested.

Edward has quite eloquently defined the issue of values. To recap, we have low-level civil disipline (to redefine the terms) in the family - one shows respect for elders, for example - this transcends culture. On the other we have the macro-societal civil discipline. This can be enforced through religion (Judeo-Cristian and Muslim restrictions - on diet, dress and deportment) or through what Kirkhill describes as "people who are just plain tired..." of an endless cycle of revenge and violence. Our Common Law evolved from that attitude.

Our society is sliding down the slope to barbarism though - less common respect, less civility - maybe we are heading toward 48's "society?"

Accorn

The first issue with the change in the value structure goes back to the time of the introduction of the television into the family home. Now this is key for a number of reasons. Everybody was drawn to this new invention, pass time became sitting in front of the TV. Interaction slowed down both in the internal family structure, "sush the show is on" to the pure interest of the show itself. An external effect was now their was a reduction in family verses family contact as everyone in their own home watching TV. We all know the humans will mimic from clothing styles to actions. So to a certain extent society values are coming from the TV. Less interaction less chance to practice polite social interaction.

Next we have the beginning of the "latch key child" or the child that returns home from school and amuses themselves until mom or dad get home from work. Mom, dad tired from work, child have home work, TV less interaction, generation two.

Lastly, we come to today and the Internet and computer age. To a certain extent children are being overwhelmed by this. Facets range from your "all day gamers and chat forum types" to the widespread intergration into schools. An intergration which to some extent has replaced traditional book learning. And several school districts have been experimenting with computers doing the teaching. What we do have again for the third generation is a lack of social interaction and a almost overwhelming technology.

Add in the success of the equal rights movement in their shift of values. And the impact here was the following of the wayside of "polite society". Opening a door for a member of the opposite gender became taboo for example. So yes in three generations yes a major portion of polite society has slipped away.

For some this "change" has been recognized and "change" is being implemented. With the high school based computers several schools have a "wean off program". Basically loading a class or two into buses and a week or two of "back to nature" camping. Sort of a win win situation in that the children are now interacting socially more as the computers are no longer there. The better programshave a high degree of interaction built into the in varrious forms. I know of several larger city schools that have taken this approach.

A method found in the elementry schools is a "gotcha" program in which the child receives a slip to drop into a end of the week draw for a small prize. Earning a "gotcha slip" can be done by saying please and thank you to helping another student but the entire system is built on manners and politeness. Schools themselves as a whole have also reinstutionalized conduct of what is expected of their students in a "polite society". For those of you with sons or daughters look in the front of their school student hand book especially in elementary. Or the next time you drop them off, look just inside the front door. In a "good" school you cannot miss it. In a nut shell behaviour modification.

Now back to overall society in general, yes there is a small shift back to polite society in major urban centers. To be honest to me in rural areas I do not think the slide away from polite society was as great. Afterall many rural areas retained that sort of familiar social intimacy of earlier generations verses the hustle and bustle of urban centers. Just my thought on the decline of polite society.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2006, 02:53:47 by 3rd Herd »
"if he was to be hanged for it, he told his brother, he could not accuse a man whom he believed had meant well, and whose error was one of judgment, not of intention"
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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2006, 13:56:52 »
The trouble is we're not dealing with an Internet "don't feed the trolls" type of situation. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.

I am definitely not suggesting "ignoring" anything.  But if you have a wasps nest, do you knock it down with a stick, or do you blast it from a distance with high pressure chemicals after dark?  Responding in kind to petty crap is a waste of time.  Better to quietly read the extremist crap and say nothing, then track the sources, find a cell of dinks and waste them (of course if its justified...blah...free speech...blah...talking about terrorists).

Our society is sliding down the slope to barbarism though - less common respect, less civility - maybe we are heading toward 48's "society?"

I'm not sure about the barbarism part.  That would suggest that maybe a-holes could get purged, and they seem to flourish these days.  I think people are getting beat down and tired.  All they see is a total lack of accounting from the legal system, both at street level and from their government.  They see normal people doing normal things, like holding a kid that egged their house, then getting sued.  They see their kids coming home with report cards that are not allowed to have a harsh word in them, and hear how the bully in the class cant be spoken to because the bullies parents are louder.  All around us we are bombarded with signs that indicate "your opinion does not matter".  That is where you get your "silent majority" from.  Any time someone wants to speak up, they get crushed, labeled and ignored (albeit, that should be okay for the hippies).  No body wants to advocate common sense, because there is always some civil libertarian that will scream about some crap and make them look like a horrible person.  Look at the demonetization of Harper in the last election.  Just ludicrous some of the crap being thrown around. 
We talked in other threads about the "Broken Windows" approach to law enforcement.  The same principles can be applied to regular societal rules.  When someone is being a jackhole, call them on it.  That's what used to happen in "the old days".  Or if someone is giving crap to said jackhole, and they start getting flack back, stick up for them.  All of a sudden, the Joe citizen starts thinking "maybe I can do something" or at least has a story to pass on of "you should have seen what happened at the mall today". 
Canadians have no sense of ownership to this country.  They need some sort of leadership to start getting them to take personal active pride in this greatest of nations, and take a little responsibility for it too.
God loves stupid people.  That's why He made so many of them.

Of course forests contribute to climate change - you pointless, vacuous wankers.

Offline 3rd Herd

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2006, 15:15:46 »
I think people are getting beat down and tired.  All they see is a total lack of accounting from the legal system, both at street level and from their government.  They see normal people doing normal things, like holding a kid that egged their house, then getting sued.  They see their kids coming home with report cards that are not allowed to have a harsh word in them, and hear how the bully in the class cant be spoken to because the bullies parents are louder.  All around us we are bombarded with signs that indicate "your opinion does not matter".  That is where you get your "silent majority" from.  Any time someone wants to speak up, they get crushed, labeled and ignored (albeit, that should be okay for the hippies).  No body wants to advocate common sense, because there is always some civil libertarian that will scream about some crap and make them look like a horrible person. 

'Okay dogs come on, walk time, your master has to do some thinking'. I think you have made some very excellent points here Zipper. First off the 'beaten and down and tired" syndrome in at least two professions I know about teaching and law enforcement. With regard to teaching you have mentioned one of the key issues the inability  to call a "spade a spade". Three times a year I dread the filling out of report cards "John displays an over developed sense of physical interaction with his peers", "Susie has remarkably well developed vocal abilities and should be encouraged to concentrate on other classroom skills" and the list goes on. It has gotten to the point now were you just cut and pasted the most applicable politically correct comment into the box from a ministry supplied lists.

 Along with another favorite of mine "psychologists have SUGGESTED that it is detrimental to a child's well being if he/she is failled and not kept with his/her peers." Okay, no epidemiological studies performed just a suggestion from a psychologists from another country and the civil libertarians jumped all over it as Gospel faith. Detentions are deemed as cruel and usual punishment in todays schools. And then the public wonders why incidents such as Rena Virk's death occur. Add in the new definition of professionalism "keep your mouth shut so you will not put the 'profession' in a bad spot light in the public's view" So now we have one of the main institutions of society in which there is no recourse to what society had previously deemed as unacceptable. If I can get away with it in school then I can get away with it in society in general. After all there is no recourse in the court system either. No one wants to advocate common sense as to do so is going to be turned into an attack on one of the many self interest groups. One of the nicest aspects of working two jobs is that after dealling with the fine upstanding youth of today in the classroom and having ones hands tied behind your back you report in for your second job. One of the first things you hear is "Golf 32 I am on on my why back to the station with one in custody, John so and so". The cell door is unlocked, pers property box is out and a smile of at least one nights justice slowly creeps across your face.
"if he was to be hanged for it, he told his brother, he could not accuse a man whom he believed had meant well, and whose error was one of judgment, not of intention"
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Offline mainerjohnthomas

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2006, 20:55:15 »
The First Amendment in the United States is the return of a very old and very healthy custom.  Amongst the ancient Celts and Norse, the Bards or Skalds had immunity, so that they would be free to speak the truth.  If a King or Chieftains actions were foolish, he feared the Bard or Skalds mockery would speed word of his foolishness across the land, and if truly memorable, across the ages.  Likewise all sought to be praised by Bard and Skald for generosity, courage, wisdom, as that fame too spread quickly.  This was a safety net for the society, for the Bards or Skalds could hold up the most powerful priest, the most willful King, or touchy champion to ridicule if his actions had become foolish or shameful, without presenting a challenge to their position.  Were a figure so mocked to react violently or angrily to the implied criticism, they would forfeit all respect in the eyes of the community.  If you can't take a joke, get out of politics, even back then.
      In the same way our political cartoonists lampoon the powerful, the morally self-righteous when their actions stand at odds with their stated beliefs.  In the case of Islam, the belief system is as morally sound as Christianity or Judaism (I'm a heathen myself so have no particular issue with Islam), but some of its clerics have turned the centers of learning and wisdom, into palaces of hatred where young men and women are turned into little better than disposable weapons.
      For a time when Christianity was burning books and free thinkers, Islam kept alive the memory of the pagan past, the learning of the ancient Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and Persians.  For a time Islam was the light of reason and learning in an age when our own ancestors were murdering each other over the scraps of fallen Rome.  Now it is the lands of Islam that have fallen to bands of thugs, and madmen masquerading as priests.  Perhaps it is our job to remind them from time to time, that enlightenment, not martyrdom was the goal that they once strived for.  If there are priests of any faith (my own most definitely included) who are so blindly intolerant that they demand death as the answer to anyone daring to criticize or mock them for conduct that is so contrary to faith they espouse, then they truly are deserving of our mockery.
When cowards run from death, it is life they escape.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2006, 23:33:36 »
This essay by Theodore Dalrymple touches on the point I raised (what are our values anyway?) and the way the Islamic radicals are able to exploit this.

Quote
Is “Old Europe” Doomed?

By Theodore Dalrymple
February 6th, 2006
Lead Essay

The late Professor Joad, a popularizer of philosophy rather than a philosopher in the true sense, used to preface his answer to any question by saying, "It depends on what you mean by…"—in this case, "doomed."

The word "doomed" implies an ineluctable destiny, against which, presumably, it is vain for men to struggle. And this in turn implies a whole, contestable philosophy of history.

Historical determinism has two sources: first the apparent ability of historians, who of course have the benefit of hindsight, to explain any and all historical events with a fair degree of plausibility, even if their explanations of the same events differ widely, thus giving rise to the impression that if the past was determined, the future must be determined also; and second the tendency of people to assume that current statistical or social trends will continue, or in other words that projections are the same as predictions. One has only to consider the exponential growth of a bacterium on a Petri dish, which if continued would mean that the entire biosphere would soon consist solely of that organism, to realize that projections do not necessarily give rise to accurate predictions.

Nevertheless, it is undeniable that a pall of doom does currently overhang Europe. In retrospect, the Twentieth Century may be considered Europe’s melancholy, long withdrawing roar (to adapt Matthew Arnold’s description of the decline of religion). And just as, according to Disraeli, the Continent of Europe would not long suffer Great Britain to be the workshop of the world, so the world would not, and did not, long suffer the Continent of Europe to dominate it, economically, culturally and intellectually. Europe’s loss of power, influence and importance continues to this day; and however much one’s material circumstances may have improved (just take a look at photographs of daily life in France or Britain in the 1950s and compare them to daily life there today), it is always unpleasant, and creates a sense of deep existential unease, to live in a country perpetually in decline, even if that decline is merely relative.

Combined with this is the fact that most European populations experience a profound feeling of impotence in the face of their own immovable political elites. (My wife, who was born in Paris 56 years ago, cannot remember any period of her life from adolescence onward when M. Chirac was not a prominent figure in French public life, and had he not died after a mere fifty years at or near the top of the greasy pole, the same might have been said of M. Mitterand.) This feeling of impotence is not because of any lack of intelligence or astuteness on the part of the populations in question: if you wanted to know why there was so much youth unemployment in France, you would not ask the Prime Minister, M. Dominque de Villepin, but the vastly more honest and clear-headed village plumber or carpenter, who would give you many precise and convincing reasons why no employer in his right mind would readily take on a new and previously untried young employee. Indeed, it would take a certain kind of intelligence, available only to those who have undergone a lot of formal education, not to be able to work it out.

The principal motor of Europe’s current decline is, in my view, its obsession with social security, which has created rigid social and economic systems that are extremely resistant to change. And this obsession with social security is in turn connected with a fear of the future: for the future has now brought Europe catastrophe and relative decline for more than a century. (interpolation; I think this is also the case for a great many Canadians; which also explains the longevity of the Liberal Hegemony)

What exactly is it that Europeans fear, given that their decline has been accompanied by an unprecedented increase in absolute material well-being? An open economy holds out more threat to them than promise: they believe that the outside world will bring them not trade and wealth, but unemployment and a loss of comfort. They therefore are inclined to retire into their shell and succumb to protectionist temptation, both internally with regard to the job market, and externally with regard to other nations. And the more those other nations advance relative to themselves, the more necessary does protection seem to them. A vicious circle is thus set up. (interpolation: In this case it means the United States vis a vi Canada)

In the process of course, the state is either granted or arrogates to itself (or, of course, both) ever-greater powers. A bureaucratic monster is created that takes on a life of its own, that is not only uneconomic but anti-economic, and that can be reformed only at the cost of social unrest that politicians naturally wish to avoid. Inertia intermittently punctuated by explosion is therefore the most likely outcome.

Hundreds of thousands of young Frenchmen, despairing of finding a job at home where about a quarter of people in their twenties are unemployed, have crossed the Channel to take advantage of Britain’s relatively flexible labor market: which, however, the British government is in the process of destroying by means of ever-closer regulation in the French centralist style.

Since coming to power, the current British government has increased public expenditure enormously, such that the British tax burden now exceeds that of Germany, which itself is a very heavily taxed economy. The ostensible purpose of this expenditure has been to improve public services while serving the cause of social justice, a rhetoric that the public has hitherto believed; the hidden purpose, or at least effect, has been to create administrative jobs on an unprecedented scale, whose principle function consists of obstruction of other people as they try to create wealth, and to bring into being a political clientele dependent upon government ‘largesse’ (half the British population is now in receipt of government subventions as part or the whole of their incomes). Not only will this lead to economic disaster, but it naturally results in the psychology succinctly described by Hilaire Belloc in the moral of his cautionary tale about Albert who was eaten by a lion at the zoo when he strayed from the nurse who took him there:

    And always keep a-hold of nurse
    For fear of finding something worse.

The dependent population does not like the state and its agents, indeed they hate them, but they soon come to fear the elimination of their good offices even more. They are like drug addicts who know that the drug that they take is not good for them, and hate the drug dealer from whom they obtain their drug, but cannot face the supposed pains of withdrawal. And what is true of Britain is true, with a few exceptions, everywhere else in Europe. (interpolation: sounds a lot like the major metropolitan areas of Canada)

In the name of social justice, personal and sectional interest has become all-powerful, paralyzing all attempts to maximize collective endeavor. Nowhere is this clearer than in France, where a survey published in the left-wing newspaper, Liberation, showed that three times as many people had warm feeling towards socialism as towards capitalism. (The ambition of three quarters of French youth is to be employed by the state). Yet French defense of personal and sectional interest is so ferocious that it renders reform almost impossible, at least without violence on the streets. Workers in the French public transport system, who enjoy privileges that would have made Louis XIV gasp, strike the moment that any reduction in them is even mooted, all in the name of preserving social justice as represented by those privileges, despite the fact that striking brings misery and impoverishment to millions of their fellow-citizens, and their privileges are bankrupting the state. The goal of everyone is to parasitize everyone else, or to struggle for as large a slice of the economic cake as possible. No one worries about the size of the cake itself. Apres moi, le deluge has become the watchword not of the king alone, but of the entire population.

France is perhaps worse in this respect than most other European countries, but it is not in an entirely different class or category from them. It hardly needs pointing out that the rest of an increasingly competitive and globalized world is not going to be sensitive to the same concerns as European governments; and while it is possible that European countries will nevertheless survive or pay their way economically by finding niche markets, this would represent a marginalization of a continent accustomed to thinking of itself as the centre of the world. Of course, marginalization is not the same as doom, unless you believe that being important in the world is itself all-important.

But there are other threats to Europe. The miserabilist view of the European past, in which achievement on a truly stupendous scale is disregarded in favor of massacre, oppression and injustice, deprives the population of any sense of pride or tradition to which it might contribute or which might be worth preserving. This loss of cultural confidence is particularly important at a time of mass immigration from very alien cultures, an immigration that can be successfully negotiated (as it has been in the past, or in the United States up to the era of multiculturalism) only if the host nations believe themselves to be the bearers of cultures into which immigrants wish, or ought to wish, to integrate, assimilate, and make their own.

In the absence of any such belief, there is a risk that the only way in which people inhabiting a country will have anything in common is geographical; and civil conflict is the method in which they will resolve their very different and entrenched conceptions about the way life should be lived. This is particularly true when immigrants are in possession, as they believe, of a unique and universal truth, such as Islam in its various forms often claims to be. If the host nation is so lacking in cultural confidence that it does not even make familiarity with the national language a condition of citizenship (as has been until recently the case in Great Britain), it is hardly surprising that integration does not proceed very far.

The problem is multiplied when a rigid labor market is capable of creating large castes of people who are unemployed and might well remain so for the whole of their adult lives. To the bitterness caused by economic uselessness will then be added, or rather be multiplied by, the bitterness of cultural separation. In the case of Islam this is particularly dangerous, because the mixture of an awareness of inferiority on the one hand, and superiority on the other, is historically a very combustible one. Latin Americans have felt it towards the United States, Russians towards Western Europe, Chinese and Japanese towards Europe and America, no doubt among many other examples.

Doom or further decline is not inevitable, however, though avoidance of it requires active effort. The auguries are not good, not only because of the political immobilism that elaborate systems of social security have caused in most European countries, but because of the European multinational entity that is being created against the wishes of the peoples of Europe (insofar as they can be gauged).

The European Union serves several purposes, none of which have much to do with the real challenges facing the continent. The Union helps Germans to forget that they are Germans, and gives them another identity rather more pleasing in their own estimation; it allows the French to forget that they are now a medium sized nation, one among many, and gives them the illusion of power and importance; it acts as a giant pension fund for politicians who are no longer willing or able successfully to compete in the rough and tumble of electoral politics, and enables them to hang on to influence and power long after they have been rejected at the polls; and it acts as a potential fortress against the winds of competition that are now blowing from all over the world, and that are deeply unsettling to people who desire security above all else.

Apocalyptic thought is curiously pleasurable. Doom is too strong a word, in my view; I think it would be more accurate to say that Europe is sleepwalking to further relative decline. But we should also modestly remember that the future is, ultimately, unknowable.

Article printed from Cato Unbound: http://www.cato-unbound.org

URL to article: http://www.cato-unbound.org/2006/02/06/theodore-dalrymple/is-old-europe-doomed/

Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Kirkhill

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2006, 02:57:46 »
mainer:

Try this one one for size - the Bards and Skalds supplied trusted commentary on the power structure, the King.  Their views could make or break a King.

Their role, I think I could argue, was taken up by priests in other societies.  Using a combination of the bully pulpit and a direct line to god to enhance authority they supplied the moral underpinning for the power structure.  This kept European monarchs in power for the best part of a millenium - until the masses learned to read themselves and draw their own conclusions.  As others have pointed out Islam has not yet come to similar conclusions.  Their priests still make and break kings.

In modern society the Bard/Priests role has been taken over by the media.  They make or break kings.  Unfortunately in our society we employ more scolds than bards and in the absence of kings they choose to scold all power.  The only societies with bards are those that are run by "kings" and the bards are on the pay-roll.

Net effect on modern western society is to distrust all power,  leaving the "kings' with the only cohesive supporting population.

A possible solution is perhaps to be found with the internet in that it may have the same impact on the media that Gutenberg and Caxton had on the priests with their printing presses.

But democracy pulled the props out from under the priests that buttressed power.  We are, perhaps, suffering from a surfeit of democracy when we find ourselves confronting centralized power.

Can the internet be used to pull the props out from the scolding press so as to support a more democratically acceptable central authority?  In other words allow people to believe that all politicians are not all crooks all the time?

Do we want that? Is it even possible for democracy to build a cohesive structure? 

Or is the best we can hope for is that the internet bypasses the Kings' paid bards in centralized states so that we all suffer the same disadvantages that are inherent in democracies?

By the way, if anyone comes up with the definitive answer let me know because I need help with life, the universe and everything.  42 isn't cutting it.  ;D



Over, Under, Around or Through.
Anticipating the triumph of Thomas Reid.

Offline mainerjohnthomas

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2006, 08:56:11 »
mainer:

Try this one one for size - the Bards and Skalds supplied trusted commentary on the power structure, the King.  Their views could make or break a King.

Their role, I think I could argue, was taken up by priests in other societies.  Using a combination of the bully pulpit and a direct line to god to enhance authority they supplied the moral underpinning for the power structure.  This kept European monarchs in power for the best part of a millenium - until the masses learned to read themselves and draw their own conclusions.  As others have pointed out Islam has not yet come to similar conclusions.  Their priests still make and break kings.
     You are quite right, the Bards and Skalds could make or break a King, as your reputation was important in securing the loyalty of your fighting men, and the pre-Christian European kings were not absolute, removable by the the people that they served, via the Althing or Celtic equivalent.  It took the Christian priesthood joining its power to the monarchy to give the divine right of kings, establishing a divine sanction for absolute power and instantly equate resistance with blasphemy.  While Bards and Skalds were not part of the ruling structure of their society, the priests of any faith often are. 
      The Reformation weakened the Church in Europe, and the separation of Cannon (Church law) from secular civil law allowed the progression of European culture, and the eventual separation of Church and State that we take for granted in North America.  In many Islamic countries, Cannon law is the civil law.  When the priests speak, the people take the word of the priest to be the will of God and thus the law.  If your law is religious, you will expect it to be the only true law, and punish others for not honouring it.
      Our society functions under civil law, we allow our citizens to follow their own faiths and cultures as long astheir faiths and cultures permit us to continue to live and worship as we choose under the laws of the nation in which we live..  Immigrants whose religious or cultural beliefs demand that we give up our own may either change their beliefs, or return to a country where these intolerance's are acceptable.
     I am a heathen ex-soldier, one of my neighbors is a Baptist youth pastor, another a Buddist pacifist; we get along because each of our creeds accepts the others right to chose for themselves, practice as they will, so long as we all accept the laws of the land that we share.  If radical Islam denies the rest of us the right to practice and speak as we wish, then it is not welcome in my land.  It should also be remembered that many of our own Islamic Canadians came here fleeing religious and secular tyranny, and are in no way accepting the hate filled messages we see in the papers.  The majority of Islamics in Canada make excellent Canadians. Those of any faith or political persuasion who feel that their beliefs give them the right to punish those who disagree with them are not welcome.

When cowards run from death, it is life they escape.

Offline Kirkhill

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2006, 11:18:46 »
Quote
I am a heathen ex-soldier, one of my neighbors is a Baptist youth pastor, another a Buddist pacifist; we get along because each of our creeds accepts the others right to chose for themselves, practice as they will, so long as we all accept the laws of the land that we share.  If radical Islam denies the rest of us the right to practice and speak as we wish, then it is not welcome in my land.

There's that tolerance thing again.  Hear, Hear.  :)
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Online E.R. Campbell

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2006, 16:15:30 »
Mr. Costello, in Australia, took something of a love it or leave it approach.  Britain’s Daily Telegraph looks at it differently – maybe, its editorial page suggests, we are the problem.  Here it is, with my emphasis added, reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of our Copyright Act:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/02/06/dl0601.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2006/02/06/ixoplead.html
Quote
Why extremists treat us with contempt

British subjects march through the streets of the capital calling for their fellow citizens to be "beheaded", "massacred" and "annihilated".

A two-year-old girl born in this country is dressed up in an "I Heart Al-Qaida " cap. Demonstrators call for "a real holocaust", with the horrible insinuation of holocaust-deniers everywhere: that the genocide never took place, but that it should have done.

There was a time when all this might have been dismissed as empty rhetoric. But the past five years have swept away any such innocence. British boys have left Tipton and Wanstead and Beeston to fight and kill their fellow citizens - whether in Iraq, Gaza, Afghanistan or London.

When these Islamist protesters dress up as suicide bombers and revel in the "magnificent" attacks of 9/11, they are not engaging in a harmless daydream: they are encouraging murder. And, to be fair, the police did eventually arrest two people for breaching the peace - not Islamist protesters, you understand, but two counter-demonstrators who were apparently provoking trouble by carrying images of Mohammed.

Now you might argue that the Met was right to lay off: that we live in a free country, however loudly the demonstrators decry that freedom, and that we should tolerate even the most noxious and deluded of opinions. The trouble is that we don't.

We live in a country where you can be arrested for reciting the names of dead soldiers at the Cenotaph, heckling at a Labour Party conference or making slighting remarks about Osama bin Laden. We live in a country where a pensioner can be charged with "racially aggravated criminal damage" for scrawling "free speech for England" on a condemned wall.

Asked why it had not arrested any of the demonstrators, the Met refused to answer - or, to be precise, it said "the decision to arrest at a public order event must be viewed in the context of the overall policing plan and the environment the officers are operating in". Might there be a connection between this cowardice and the contempt some Muslims feel for us? Is it not at least possible that the self-loathing they encounter, from the moment they go to school, turns some boys from Tipton and Wanstead and Beeston against their country?

After all, the question of whether it is possible to be a good British Muslim is not a new one. Hundreds of millions of Muslims lived peacefully under the British Crown, in India, Sudan, Malaya and elsewhere. They saw no conflict between their faith and their civic loyalty, fighting for Britain even when we went to war against the Ottoman Caliph. The difference is that, in those days, we had confidence in ourselves, and conveyed this confidence to others.

Compare that attitude with the apologies we heard yesterday from the Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, the former Met chief Lord Stevens and others, all of whom seemed to be more upset about the depiction of the Prophet in Jyllands-Posten than about the fact that a tiny minority in this country seems bent on the murder of the rest of us.

This newspaper has a deep regard for Islam, that purest and most abstract of the monotheistic faiths, to whose tenets we recently dedicated a series of colour supplements. We share the admiration of Rousseau, Carlyle and Gibbon for the Prophet, which is why, on grounds of courtesy, we have chosen not to cause gratuitous offence to his followers by reproducing the cartoons at the centre of this row.

But that is a different thing from saying that such images ought not to be published. All respectable Muslims should be horrified at the antics of the ignorant loudmouths who paraded through Knightsbridge at the weekend. At best, they have disgraced their religion. At worst, they have incited terrorism and, in so doing, condemned themselves to an infinitely worse fate than they need fear from our courts. "The actions of each man are bound about his neck," says the Koran (17:13). "On the Day of Resurrection, he shall be confronted with a scroll spread wide open."
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
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Offline Glorified Ape

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2006, 17:32:08 »
Regarding the issue of respecting the values of your adopted country, I read an excellent letter in the Toronto Star in which the topic is discussed in relation to the whole hooplah about the cartoons and resultant boycott of Danish products. I emphasized the particularly relevant portion but it's a great statement overall.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1139267413917&call_pageid=968332189003&col=968350116895

Quote
What point to ban?
Feb. 7, 2006. 01:00 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Muslim stores join ban


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feb. 4.

The boycott of Danish cheese by some Muslim owned stores is just another example of how easy it is to provoke our community into validating the stereotypes that exist about us.

Muslim Canadians must express their outrage not only at the cartoonist, but also the extremists in the Middle East who say, "The solution is the slaughter of those who harmed Islam and the Prophet."

The Muslim Canadian Congress strongly believes that as reprehensible as the cartoons were, the issuing of death threats and asking for the killing of journalists and cartoonists, must be condemned with vigour, as it is contrary, not only to the letter and spirit of Islam, but also offensive to the civil society we have chosen as our home.


What is the responsibility of a Danish cheese manufacturer over the publication of extremely hostile cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad in a Danish newspaper?

Are we not the same people who said, don't blame all Muslims for the actions of one Muslim — Osama bin Laden? Have we forgotten the argument we used to defend ourselves from collective punishment?

If my Muslim community wishes to boycott Danish products as an act of protest, why stop at Denmark. Why not start with American products? After all, it is the United States that occupies two Muslim countries, not Denmark. Where will this stop? Will we stop buying French, German, Italian, Spanish and Norwegian products as well? After all, newspapers in these countries, too, have printed the cartoons.

This selective sense of outrage against Danish food products reeks of hypocrisy and false bravado.

After all, it is easy to give up on Danish cheese, but who will hand over his Microsoft, Mac or Mercedes product? Not Hosni Mubarek and definitely not King Abdullah of Jordan or President Bashar Assad of Syria.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
El-Farouk Khaki, Secretary General,

Muslim Canadian Congress, Toronto

Copyright Toronto Star Newspapers Limited. All rights reserved.
Bureaucracy is hell.

Offline GO!!!

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2006, 20:36:39 »
GA - excellent points.

I too will share the righteous indignation of the slighted muslim - the minute they begin smashing their iPods and torching their Mercedes Cars in public.

No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline Bert

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2006, 20:58:49 »
Not to bring a tangent to the thread, however the following Stratfor article suggests there are
strong gulfs between various perspectives and adgendas.  As like in Australia, the clash of ideas are quite
formidable. 


www.stratfor.com
Stratfor Geopolitical Intelligence Report
7 Feb. 2006

The Cartoon Backlash: Redefining Alignments
By George Friedman

There is something rotten in the state of Denmark. We just couldn't help but open with that -- with apologies to Shakespeare. Nonetheless, there is something exceedingly odd in the notion that Denmark -- which has made a national religion of not being offensive to anyone -- could become the focal point of Muslim rage. The sight of the Danish and Norwegian embassies being burned in Damascus -- and Scandinavians in general being warned to leave Islamic countries -- has an aura of the surreal: Nobody gets mad at Denmark or Norway. Yet, death threats are now being hurled against the Danes and Norwegians as though they were mad-dog friends of Dick Cheney. History has its interesting moments.

At the same time, the matter is not to be dismissed lightly. The explosion in the Muslim world over the publication of 12 cartoons by a minor Danish newspaper -- cartoons that first appeared back in September -- has, remarkably, redefined the geopolitical matrix of the U.S.-jihadist war. Or, to be more precise, it has set in motion something that appears to be redefining that matrix. We do not mean here simply a clash of civilizations, although that is undoubtedly part of it. Rather, we mean that alignments within the Islamic world and within the West appear to be in flux in some very important ways.

Let's begin with the obvious: the debate over the cartoons. There is a prohibition in Islam against making images of the Prophet Mohammed. There also is a prohibition against ridiculing the Prophet. Thus, a cartoon that ridicules the Prophet violates two fundamental rules simultaneously. Muslims around the world were deeply offended by these cartoons.

It must be emphatically pointed out that the Muslim rejection of the cartoons does not derive from a universalistic view that one should respect religions. The criticism does not derive from a secularist view that holds all religions in equal indifference and requires "sensitivity" not on account of theologies, but in order to avoid hurting anyone's feelings. The Muslim view is theological: The Prophet Mohammed is not to be ridiculed or portrayed. But violating the sensibilities of other religions is not taboo. Therefore, Muslims frequently, in action, print and speech, do and say things about other religions -- Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism -- that followers of these religions would find defamatory. The Taliban, for example, were not concerned about the views among other religions when they destroyed the famous Buddhas in Bamiyan. The Muslim demand is honest and authentic: It is for respect for Islam, not a general secular respect for all beliefs as if they were all equal.

The response from the West, and from Europe in particular, has been to frame the question as a matter of free speech. European newspapers, wishing to show solidarity with the Danes, have reprinted the cartoons, further infuriating the Muslims. European liberalism has a more complex profile than Islamic rage over insults. In many countries, it is illegal to incite racial hatred. It is difficult to imagine that the defenders of these cartoons would sit by quietly if a racially defamatory cartoon were published. Or, imagine the reception among liberal Europeans -- or on any American campus -- if a professor published a book purporting to prove that women were intellectually inferior to men. (The mere suggestion of such a thing, by the president of Harvard in a recent speech, led to calls for his resignation.)

In terms of the dialogue over the cartoons, there is enough to amuse even the most jaded observers. The sight of Muslims arguing the need for greater sensitivity among others, and of advocates of laws against racial hatred demanding absolute free speech, is truly marvelous to behold. There is, of course, one minor difference between the two sides: The Muslims are threatening to kill people who offend them and are burning embassies -- in essence, holding entire nations responsible for the actions of a few of their citizens. The European liberals are merely making speeches. They are not threatening to kill critics of the modern secular state. That also distinguishes the Muslims from, say, Christians in the United States who have been affronted by National Endowment for the Arts grants.

These are not trivial distinctions. But what is important is this: The controversy over the cartoons involves issues so fundamental to the two sides that neither can give in. The Muslims cannot accept visual satire involving the Prophet. Nor can the Europeans accept that Muslims can, using the threat of force, dictate what can be published. Core values are at stake, and that translates into geopolitics.

In one sense, there is nothing new or interesting in intellectual inconsistency or dishonesty. Nor is there very much new about Muslims -- or at least radical ones -- threatening to kill people who offend them. What is new is the breadth of the Muslim response and the fact that it is directed obsessively not against the United States, but against European states.

One of the primary features of the U.S.-jihadist war has been that each side has tried to divide the other along a pre-existing fault line. For the United States, in both Afghanistan and Iraq, the manipulation of Sunni-Shiite tensions has been evident. For the jihadists, and even more for non-jihadist Muslims caught up in the war, the tension between the United States and Europe has been a critical fault line to manipulate. It is significant, then, that the cartoon affair threatens to overwhelm both the Euro-American split and the Sunni-Shiite split. It is, paradoxically, an affair that unifies as well as divides.

The Fissures in the West

It is dangerous and difficult to speak of the "European position" -- there really isn't one. But there is a Franco-German position that generally has been taken to be the European position. More precisely, there is the elite Franco-German position that The New York Times refers to whenever it mentions "Europe." That is the Europe that we mean now.

In the European view, then, the United States massively overreacted to 9/11. Apart from the criticism of Iraq, the Europeans believe that the United States failed to appreciate al Qaeda's relative isolation within the Islamic world and, by reshaping its relations with the Islamic world over 9/11, caused more damage. Indeed, this view goes, the United States increased the power of al Qaeda and added unnecessarily to the threat it presents. Implicit in the European criticisms -- particularly from the French -- was the view that American cowboy insensitivity to the Muslim world not only increased the danger after 9/11, but effectively precipitated 9/11. From excessive support for Israel to support for Egypt and Jordan, the United States alienated the Muslims. In other words, 9/11 was the result of a lack of sophistication and poor policy decisions by the United States -- and the response to the 9/11 attacks was simply over the top.

Now an affair has blown up that not only did not involve the United States, but also did not involve a state decision. The decision to publish the offending cartoons was that of a Danish private citizen. The Islamic response has been to hold the entire state responsible. As the cartoons were republished, it was not the publications printing them that were viewed as responsible, but the states in which they were published. There were attacks on embassies, gunmen in EU offices at Gaza, threats of another 9/11 in Europe.

From a psychological standpoint, this drives home to the Europeans an argument that the Bush administration has been making from the beginning -- that the threat from Muslim extremists is not really a response to anything, but a constantly present danger that can be triggered by anything or nothing. European states cannot control what private publications publish. That means that, like it or not, they are hostage to Islamic perceptions. The threat, therefore, is not under their control. And thus, even if the actions or policies of the United States did precipitate 9/11, the Europeans are no more immune to the threat than the Americans are.

This combines with the Paris riots last November and the generally deteriorating relationships between Muslims in Europe and the dominant populations. The pictures of demonstrators in London, threatening the city with another 9/11, touch extremely sensitive nerves. It becomes increasingly difficult for Europeans to distinguish between their own relationship with the Islamic world and the American relationship with the Islamic world. A sense of shared fate emerges, driving the Americans and Europeans closer together. At a time when pressing issues like Iranian nuclear weapons are on the table, this increases Washington's freedom of action. Put another way, the Muslim strategy of splitting the United States and Europe -- and using Europe to constrain the United States -- was heavily damaged by the Muslim response to the cartoons.

The Intra-Ummah Divide

But so too was the split between Sunni and Shia. Tensions between these two communities have always been substantial. Theological differences aside, both international friction and internal friction have been severe. The Iran-Iraq war, current near-civil war in Iraq, tensions between Sunnis and Shia in the Gulf states, all point to the obvious: These two communities are, while both Muslim, mistrustful of one another. Shiite Iran has long viewed Sunni Saudi Arabia as the corrupt tool of the United States, while radical Sunnis saw Iran as collaborating with the United States in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The cartoons are the one thing that both communities -- not only in the Middle East but also in the wider Muslim world -- must agree about. Neither side can afford to allow any give in this affair and still hope to maintain any credibility in the Islamic world. Each community -- and each state that is dominated by one community or another -- must work to establish (or maintain) its Islamic credentials. A case in point is the violence against Danish and Norwegian diplomatic offices in Syria (and later, in Lebanon and Iran) -- which undoubtedly occurred with Syrian government involvement. Syria is ruled by Alawites, a Shiite sect. Syria -- aligned with Iran -- is home to a major Sunni community; there is another in Lebanon. The cartoons provided what was essentially a secular regime the opportunity to take the lead in a religious matter, by permitting the attacks on the embassies. This helped consolidate the regime's position, however temporarily.

Indeed, the Sunni and Shiite communities appear to be competing with each other as to which is more offended. The Shiite Iranian-Syrian bloc has taken the lead in violence, but the Sunni community has been quite vigorous as well. The cartoons are being turned into a test of authenticity for Muslims. To the degree that Muslims are prepared to tolerate or even move past this issue, they are being attacked as being willing to tolerate the Prophet's defamation. The cartoons are forcing a radicalization of parts of the Muslim community that are uneasy with the passions of the moment.

Beneficiaries on Both Sides

The processes under way in the West and within the Islamic world are naturally interacting. The attacks on embassies, and threats against lives, that are based on nationality alone are radicalizing the Western perspective of Islam. The unwillingness of Western governments to punish or curtail the distribution of the cartoons is taken as a sign of the real feelings of the West. The situation is constantly compressing each community, even as they are divided.

One might say that all this is inevitable. After all, what other response would there be, on either side? But this is where the odd part begins: The cartoons actually were published in September, and -- though they drew some complaints, even at the diplomatic level -- didn't come close to sparking riots. Events unfolded slowly: The objections of a Muslim cleric in Denmark upon the initial publication by Jyllands-Posten eventually prompted leaders of the Islamic Faith Community to travel to Egypt, Syria and Lebanon in December, purposely "to stir up attitudes against Denmark and the Danes" in response to the cartoons. As is now obvious, attitudes have certainly been stirred.

There are beneficiaries. It is important to note here that the fact that someone benefits from something does not mean that he was responsible for it. (We say this because in the past, when we have noted the beneficiaries of an event or situation, the not-so-bright bulbs in some quarters took to assuming that we meant the beneficiaries deliberately engineered the event.)

Still, there are two clear beneficiaries. One is the United States: The cartoon affair is serving to further narrow the rift between the Bush administration's view of the Islamic world and that of many Europeans. Between the Paris riots last year, the religiously motivated murder of a Dutch filmmaker and the "blame Denmark" campaign, European patience is wearing thin. The other beneficiary is Iran. As Iran moves toward a confrontation with the United States over nuclear weapons, this helps to rally the Muslim world to its side: Iran wants to be viewed as the defender of Islam, and Sunnis who have raised questions about its flirtations with the United States in Iraq are now seeing Iran as the leader in outrage against Europe.

The cartoons have changed the dynamics both within Europe and the Islamic world, and between them. That is not to say the furor will not die down in due course, but it will take a long time for the bad feelings to dissipate. This has created a serious barrier between moderate Muslims and Europeans who were opposed to the United States. They were the ones most likely to be willing to collaborate, and the current uproar makes that collaboration much more difficult.

It's hard to believe that a few cartoons could be that significant, but these are.
Send questions or comments on this article to analysis@stratfor.com.


Offline Kirkhill

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Re: Respect our values or Leave
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2006, 21:10:16 »
As the author states, nobody doesn't like Denmark.  It and Norway have been poster children for what Canada thinks it is.  They have been putting their money and their blood into the field at a higher level than we have.  They seem to have been largely successful as honest brokers.  If so then that is their threat. 

Iran, and others, need a polarized world. They can't get their people to go to war against "nice guys", however that is defined.  The Danes, Norwegians (and Canada for that matter) when succesful, work against that polarization.  That makes them targets. 
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