Author Topic: A scarier strategic problem - no people  (Read 21263 times)

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Offline Kirkhill

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2008, 18:42:52 »
PS, I would strongly recommend reading more history and a bit of paleogeography to get a sense of how bad things can be.  It tends to put our modern problems in perspective. 

Keep in mind that in the past, with small populations, a relatively minor event could have a major impact.  For instance, consider Vancouver and Saskatchewan.  It is conceivable that Vancouver could lose a Million people overnight as a result of crowding into a highly active chunk of land that could be washed away or break off with little notice.  Meanwhile, Saskatchewan, with a population of only a million, is unlikely to ever see a cataclysm that would wipe out the entire population all at once.

I fully agree that over-capitalized and over-crowded monstrosities like New York, London, Calcutta, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are high risk locations.  They are more likely to experience disaster just on the basis of crowding and ridiculous population densities.

Meanwhile, those living in the countryside, with Yaks or SUVs, are generally going to be much harder to kill off.  At very least they will have more notice of hard times coming and have more of an opportunity to adapt to circumstances.

Strangely enough it is those people in the country that feel confident enough in the future to have more kids and that also tend to vote away from liberal/Liberal tendencies.

Meanwhile, after reading your profile, I hope things are looking up for you these days.

Cheers.
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Offline dukkadukka

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2008, 18:44:33 »
You are overly pessimistic dukkadukka.  Right now I am living with the consequences of reduced population growth and migration.  The company I work for is setting up a traditional industry in Alberta.  The traditional method, which worked well for millenia, also worked well for them in their previous location.  They used to have lots of people to operate the plants.  They don't any longer.


I may be overly pessimistic but it's a reality in my mind.
Look at Canada in general.  Breasts are the yellow birds of our society.  The cases of breast cancer alone are steadily increasing and we must ask, WHY? What has changed, what in our environment (either man-produced or other) is causing this.  Also with the decline in frogs (frogs breathe through their skin, they are dying as a direct correlation with something in the air quality in which we breathe as well). It gives me a fright because with everything that is causing these phenomenons is clearly man made. 
The Earth has had a perfect balance for millions of years, excluding instances in history which wiped out species, and in the past, 100 years or so the Earth has been in steady decline.  Personally (my opinion and my opinion alone based on my current knowledge) the more the human race expands, the worse it will get unless steps are made to halt, reverse or find a solution.  Global warming is not a myth! The global crisis is not a myth. 
I'm merely a more statistic/knowledge kind of girl, I am presented with facts and use those facts to generate ideas to understand why. In the past 3-5 years there has been a rise in global phenomenons, whether it be the increase in disease in our species, the decline of another species or tornadoes/typhoons/and other natural disasters.  These are not just random occurrences but rather a product of what our species is doing to the planet we inhabit.
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Offline dukkadukka

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #52 on: June 09, 2008, 18:53:25 »

Keep in mind that in the past, with small populations, a relatively minor event could have a major impact.  For instance, consider Vancouver and Saskatchewan.  It is conceivable that Vancouver could lose a Million people overnight as a result of crowding into a highly active chunk of land that could be washed away or break off with little notice.  Meanwhile, Saskatchewan, with a population of only a million, is unlikely to ever see a cataclysm that would wipe out the entire population all at once.

I fully agree that over-capitalized and over-crowded monstrosities like New York, London, Calcutta, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are high risk locations.  They are more likely to experience disaster just on the basis of crowding and ridiculous population densities.

Meanwhile, those living in the countryside, with Yaks or SUVs, are generally going to be much harder to kill off.  At very least they will have more notice of hard times coming and have more of an opportunity to adapt to circumstances.

Strangely enough it is those people in the country that feel confident enough in the future to have more kids and that also tend to vote away from liberal/Liberal tendencies.

Meanwhile, after reading your profile, I hope things are looking up for you these days.

Cheers.

I wasn't speaking merely of wiping out entire cities! It's more that the decline of a population, in my opinion, is more welcomed than something I view as scary. 
I currently live in a relatively small town! But our economy here is booming.  It's rising and more and more people from larger cities like Toronto are moving here for a smaller life-style and to enter our booming mining trades.
(And thanks, things are certainly looking up! Merit listed on the 6th of this month finally! I've never had a poor opinion of the world and welcome bumps in the path I'm on, but the problems in which the Earth is going on give me a slight fright.  I'm a tree-hugging hippie at heart.)
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Offline Colin P

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2008, 10:26:57 »
I may be overly pessimistic but it's a reality in my mind.
Look at Canada in general.  Breasts are the yellow birds of our society.  The cases of breast cancer alone are steadily increasing and we must ask, WHY? What has changed, what in our environment (either man-produced or other) is causing this.  Also with the decline in frogs (frogs breathe through their skin, they are dying as a direct correlation with something in the air quality in which we breathe as well). It gives me a fright because with everything that is causing these phenomenons is clearly man made. 
The Earth has had a perfect balance for millions of years, excluding instances in history which wiped out species, and in the past, 100 years or so the Earth has been in steady decline.  Personally (my opinion and my opinion alone based on my current knowledge) the more the human race expands, the worse it will get unless steps are made to halt, reverse or find a solution.  Global warming is not a myth! The global crisis is not a myth. 
I'm merely a more statistic/knowledge kind of girl, I am presented with facts and use those facts to generate ideas to understand why. In the past 3-5 years there has been a rise in global phenomenons, whether it be the increase in disease in our species, the decline of another species or tornadoes/typhoons/and other natural disasters.  These are not just random occurrences but rather a product of what our species is doing to the planet we inhabit.

The earth has been in "perfect" balance?  barring the 5 or so extinction events and the ongoing loss and introduction of new species. Keep in mind that our lifespans have lept ahead and that many people who would not have survived birth did, Lot's of people who would have not survived as infants, kids or young adults all have. So of course we will have people dying of stuff they didn't see much of before. Also the reason people did not die of cancer much in the 18th century was they do know what to look for and death certificates would be little use as early death was considered natural.

Offline DBA

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2008, 11:58:15 »
I may be overly pessimistic but it's a reality in my mind.
Look at Canada in general.  Breasts are the yellow birds of our society.  The cases of breast cancer alone are steadily increasing and we must ask, WHY? What has changed, what in our environment (either man-produced or other) is causing this.  Also with the decline in frogs (frogs breathe through their skin, they are dying as a direct correlation with something in the air quality in which we breathe as well). It gives me a fright because with everything that is causing these phenomenons is clearly man made. 
The Earth has had a perfect balance for millions of years, excluding instances in history which wiped out species, and in the past, 100 years or so the Earth has been in steady decline.  Personally (my opinion and my opinion alone based on my current knowledge) the more the human race expands, the worse it will get unless steps are made to halt, reverse or find a solution.  Global warming is not a myth! The global crisis is not a myth. 
I'm merely a more statistic/knowledge kind of girl, I am presented with facts and use those facts to generate ideas to understand why. In the past 3-5 years there has been a rise in global phenomenons, whether it be the increase in disease in our species, the decline of another species or tornadoes/typhoons/and other natural disasters.  These are not just random occurrences but rather a product of what our species is doing to the planet we inhabit.

From the Canadian Cancer Statistics for 2008:

Quote
Breast cancer incidence rose steadily but gradually between 1979 and 1999 but has since declined significantly by 1.7% per year.† Much of the increase was probably due to the gradual uptake of screening mammography that took place during the 1980s and 1990s. This results in identification of cases of breast cancer earlier than would have occurred without screening. Similar to prostate cancer, screening may have eventually exhausted the pool of prevalent cancers in the screened population, resulting in recent declines, as the incidence rate dropped back closer to prescreening levels. However, changes in risk and protective factors such as changing patterns of childbearing and hormones likely also have played a role.

This pattern is common with any new testing that can discover a condition earlier or the introduction of wider use of existing tests. Detected rates will go up, the press will hype it and people will worry and buy papers and magazines. Media needs something people are interested in to get them to watch/listen/read and one way to do that is to hype things like increased detection rates as proof of some deeper worrying trend.

A lot of media seems to be a mix of "suck up" and "we are all doomed" story lines. These have to be slanted for something (suck up) or against something (we are all doomed) so media becomes more partisan to float the stories. Lost in this process is comprehensive reporting and articles start to read like op-ed pieces.
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Online E.R. Campbell

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2008, 12:15:47 »
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is an article to which we should give careful attention because it also applies to Canada;

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080905.wreckoning0906/BNStory/International/home
Quote
Europe's demographic bombshell

DOUG SAUNDERS

Globe and Mail Update
September 5, 2008 at 12:23 PM EDT

LONDON — In France, they call it la rentrée, the day in early September when the entire population of Europe coagulates the continent's highways and asphyxiates its airports by returning from four- and six-week vacations all at once. It's considered a sombre and melancholy day, a moment to contemplate your depleted finances and advancing age.

Never more so than this week. Aside from a slumping euro and a collapsing real-estate market, residents of most European countries returned from the beaches to discover that their grey hairs and their improved lives have led their countries to a looming demographic and fiscal catastrophe.

Eurostat, the European Union's statistics body, created a continent-wide frisson of alarm over the Aug. 31 weekend with a study bearing the innocuous title “Population and social conditions.”

The statisticians discovered that it will be only seven years – not 20 or more years as previously thought – until a population milestone is reached, the point at which deaths will outnumber births across the continent, something that has not occurred since the disease-ridden years of the 18th century.

In other words, as of 2015, Europe's population will no longer increase naturally. And, even with immigration at its current levels, that means that within the next generation, the European population will begin shrinking.

Europeans are freaking out

“Those of you who have a chance of living to see the year 2060 should start getting worried,” wrote the conservative Madrid newspaper ABC. “All conceivable catastrophes are possible.”

The year 2060, as we shall see, is something of a demographic black hole. At the moment, 1 in 5 people on the continent is over 65. This means that the pension costs, public-health and transportation needs (and sometimes the housing and social-welfare requirements) of each senior citizen must be supported by taxes and other deductions from the incomes of just four working-age people (aged 15 to 64), presuming they have incomes.

As birth rates stay low and longevity increases, this gap will widen. By 2060, there will be 50 million fewer workers and 67 million more seniors, so the ratio will have changed to 1 in 3 – in other words, there will be only two working-age people to support each senior.

The costs of supporting the over-65 population are already the largest government expenses in many European states. This doubling of the ratio means that taxes will either have to increase dramatically – some speculate they may have to double – or the quality and level of public services will have to be slashed harshly without any commensurate tax cut. Either choice would badly wound the economy.

The Swedes got down to nuts and bolts: “To cope with this decline, the aging population must work longer; that means both men and women,” the newspaper Dagens Nyheter wrote, joining many voices now calling for a retirement age of 70 and longer work hours to boost productivity.

“But that will not be enough. Immigration must increase, with everything that entails in terms of integration measures. And finally, the obstacles hindering people from having children must be set aside. That includes facilitating artificial insemination, for example. But the key thing is to create an equitable labour market, so that women do not feel forced to choose between children and their professional life.”

That doesn't quite add up: If you're going to encourage women to have more than 2.1 babies each – such as by paying them $1,500 a month for each additional child, as the French are now doing – then how can you also encourage them to get more active in the work force? If I were a 30-year-old woman or a 64-year-old factory worker in Europe now, I'd be getting worried. The boom is about to come down on you.

Of course, this should be a happy story: Because living conditions have improved in so much of the world, people are finally having an appropriate number of children. Overpopulation is a big worry – and in places like the countryside of India, it remains a crisis. We can't keep multiplying forever, and human populations are never stable: They either grow or shrink. Europeans have long complained about what they believe are crowded conditions, which is why they continue to come to Canada and Australia.

So now they might be able to get those open spaces at home. But the price, it turns out, might be unbearably high.

The fiscal cost, mentioned above, is only the beginning. In a shrinking population, and therefore a shrinking market, it is extremely hard to avoid poverty, inequality and unemployment – why would anyone invest in your business or buy your house, knowing there will be fewer buyers in the future?
Productivity gains, as the Swedes suggest, can buy you some time, but in the long run a minus sign is bad for everyone.

There are now 51 countries whose populations will shrink in the next 50 years, plus 28 that are able to maintain their populations only through immigration. That includes Canada, whose population will start shrinking in about 20 years, even with 300,000 new immigrants a year.

It also includes Qatar, Singapore and the United Arab Emirates. Iran is on the verge of joining this group – after plummeting from seven children per family in the 1980s to barely more than two now – and Turkey is not far behind.

When people become prosperous, they stop having large families. That includes immigrants, who don't reproduce more, after a generation, than the rest of us. Either we take in a lot more than we do now, or we get ready to change our way of life – this will be the big debate of the near future.

Twenty years ago, Canadian-born historian William H. McNeill became the first scholar (to my knowledge) to look seriously at the problem of shrinking population, which was then strictly a speculative matter.

“Politically speaking,” he concluded, looking at places such as Quebec, where it had already happened, “one must expect considerable volatility in public responses to what is still a new and perhaps unstable demographic regime in the rich, urbanized countries of the earth.”

He warned that every nation would soon have to be an immigrant nation and spoke of “the tendency toward aggressive self-assertion in the face of diminishing numbers.”

I fear that may have been a good prediction.

Immigration is absolutely essential for Canada’s future prosperity – hell’s bells increased immigration is essential for our very survival.

BUT we need carefully targeted immigration. We need to recruit people who will, largely, “hit the ground running” and integrate, fairly easily, into a sophisticated, tolerant, liberal-capitalist culture. There are, at this moment, two ‘good’ sources for large numbers of those ‘desirable’ people: China and India. There are also some ‘bad’ sources – areas that offer people who have, by and large, demonstrated difficulty in adjusting to Canada, even in the second generation.


It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline chanman

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2008, 17:16:18 »
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is an article to which we should give careful attention because it also applies to Canada;

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080905.wreckoning0906/BNStory/International/home
Immigration is absolutely essential for Canada’s future prosperity – hell’s bells increased immigration is essential for our very survival.

BUT we need carefully targeted immigration. We need to recruit people who will, largely, “hit the ground running” and integrate, fairly easily, into a sophisticated, tolerant, liberal-capitalist culture. There are, at this moment, two ‘good’ sources for large numbers of those ‘desirable’ people: China and India. There are also some ‘bad’ sources – areas that offer people who have, by and large, demonstrated difficulty in adjusting to Canada, even in the second generation.




You have mentioned before that 'Culture Matters'.  Do you think the demographic crunch will lead to a change Europe's culture?  For that matter, shouldn't Russia's demographic problems come to a head before those of Europe?

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2008, 18:50:06 »
You have mentioned before that 'Culture Matters'.  Do you think the demographic crunch will lead to a change Europe's culture?  For that matter, shouldn't Russia's demographic problems come to a head before those of Europe?

I think many Europeans are already battling what they see as a cultural 'challenge' brought on by too many immigrants who are unwilling or unable to integrate into the traditional, established national culture. The immigration is the result of too many unfilled low wage/low status jobs - jobs that e.g. Danes want done but would rather not do themselves.

Russia's demographic crunch is already making life difficult for the Medvedev/Putin mob.

But what's the alternative for e.g. Denmark, the Netherlands and, indeed, Canada?

First: automate or mechanize those low wage/low status but, all the same, important jobs. I have, previously, explained the difference between garbage collection in Beijing and Dallas: the streets are clean and tidy in both cities but in Dallas the work is done by a very few people and a whole lot of equipment. The relative costs to the two economies are fully acceptable.

Second: recruit a steady and increasingly larger stream of immigrants from a few countries with surpluses of sophisticated, well educated people - they will do the low wage/low status jobs for a while (and that's why there needs to be a steady stream of immigrants) and they will integrate easily. They will not become WASPs although, despite the disapproval of the first generation of immigrants, their grandchildren will inter-marry with my grandchildren, but they will not decide to behead our prime minister, either.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
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Online tomahawk6

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2008, 19:17:10 »
The problem in Europe including Russia is that the birth rate of muslim immigrants in time will make the Russians or British minorities in their country. France has offered a bonus for French women for each baby they conceive. This may end up being the best alternative.

Offline chanman

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2008, 20:36:38 »
I think many Europeans are already battling what they see as a cultural 'challenge' brought on by too many immigrants who are unwilling or unable to integrate into the traditional, established national culture. The immigration is the result of too many unfilled low wage/low status jobs - jobs that e.g. Danes want done but would rather not do themselves.

Russia's demographic crunch is already making life difficult for the Medvedev/Putin mob.

But what's the alternative for e.g. Denmark, the Netherlands and, indeed, Canada?

First: automate or mechanize those low wage/low status but, all the same, important jobs. I have, previously, explained the difference between garbage collection in Beijing and Dallas: the streets are clean and tidy in both cities but in Dallas the work is done by a very few people and a whole lot of equipment. The relative costs to the two economies are fully acceptable.

The old capital and labour inputs into the production black box   ;)

But then, the demographics of the donor countries suddenly become of huge interest of us.  China still has plenty of peasants and a deep pool of unskilled migrant labour, but the wage increases in the industrialized areas suggest that skilled labour is approaching or nearing full utilization; and the lack of good local managerial talent is a long-bemoaned subject for firms in the market that are trying to expand.

Do expect some culture clash between large numbers of immigrants with conservative values with locals who move ever further to the left? (I want to avoid the world liberal as is used in the vernacular as it has, and should continue to mean something else entirely).  The pro-Tibet protestors being shouted down by members of the Chinese diaspora, while entertaining for someone who generally find protestors annoying, come to mind.

Quote
Second: recruit a steady and increasingly larger stream of immigrants from a few countries with surpluses of sophisticated, well educated people - they will do the low wage/low status jobs for a while (and that's why there needs to be a steady stream of immigrants) and they will integrate easily. They will not become WASPs although, despite the disapproval of the first generation of immigrants, their grandchildren will inter-marry with my grandchildren, but they will not decide to behead our prime minister, either.

This seems to be the goal of a number of developed countries with low birth rates.  In the present day, we compete with, at the very least, Singapore, the US, Australia for the choice emmigrats from the two countries you mentioned above.  Generally, I think that you can add Hong Kong, the UK, and certain local cities (Bangalore, China's eastern seaboard) as competitors to attrct the young, productive, educated, and risk-taking people (as a decision to emmigrate) that no one ever seems to have enough of.  What, then, is and will be Canada's unique attraction that makes sure that should emmigration from donor countries slows down, we continue to be the destination of choice (or at least continues for long enough that we can can adjust more gradually?)

Maybe it's time to offshore child birth and start offering rewards for families in other countries to have more children in exchange for preferential treatment when it comes to their applications for visas, access to international schools, and prompter service when it comes to their immigration paperwork?  A longer term view to be sure, but unless you know of a way to keep birthrates above 2.1 when per capita GDP starts rising...


The problem in Europe including Russia is that the birth rate of muslim immigrants in time will make the Russians or British minorities in their country. France has offered a bonus for French women for each baby they conceive. This may end up being the best alternative.

Well, Islam being a religion, I suppose you could always convert more French women...  If the high birthrate stems from Pakistani or Arab or Caucuses culture though, then religion might not be the important factor.  Do the Orthodox groups in the Caucuses have more or less kids than their Muslim neighbours?  (For that matter, you could compare the two groups in the ex-FRY too).  I suppose though, that if they expect that to be the future, they should start entrenching their aboriginal rights now while they still have some say-so on the matter  ;)

Offline Otto Fest

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2008, 04:54:58 »
I'm sorry, but can't people see the obvious?  If you don't have kids, who do you think will be around to visit?  Horrifically expensive, emotionally draining, but the only surety to our future.
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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2008, 11:39:09 »
Quote
Thursday, May 17, 2007
110,000 abortions per year in Canada
The Globe reported today that teen pregnancies are down and abortions are declining; it was a decent article, but the last line caught me off guard:
"In Canada, there are about 330,000 lives birth each year, and about 110,000 abortions."

Source

Quote
Canada to accept up to 265,000 new immigrants in 2008
Ottawa, October 31, 2007 — The Honourable Diane Finley, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, announced today that Canada expects to welcome between 240,000 and 265,000 newcomers in 2008.

  Source



265,000 immigrants to offset 110,000 abortions (+ those prevented by birth control).


And ultimately what is the issue?

The issue is the attitude of us in society that sees pregnancy out of wedlock as a problem.  We stigmatize the mothers.  We fail to support them and their children..........and that support issue isn't just a government problem.  It is a problem of all of those "grandmothers and grandfathers" that fail to step up and support their own kin - their daugthers and sons and grandkids.  As often as not the mother is ostracized, and occasionally murdered.

The solution to our declining population?  More families like the Palins - with more government policies that would support the types of decisions that the Palins have made.  Policies that support a conventionally extended family.  Policies that encourage marriage and family, that allow grandparents to accept their grandkids as full dependents and that adjust support accordingly.

In Indiana my wife and I used to remark on the number of incidences of babes in the arms of 17 year old mothers with 34 year old grandmothers, 51 year old great-grandmothers and 68 year old great-great grandmothers.  Assuming that the fathers are of like ages that represents a clan of 4 generations of working age adults in a position to support their infants, - not to mention the 85 year olds who are also often able to contribute, if only as baby sitters and advisors.

If we increase the cycle rate (reduce the generational interval from 27 years to 17 years) and take away the barriers to having and raising out of wedlock children that encourage desperate young women to throw away potential Canadian citizens then the problem disappears quickly.

And that isn't too difficult to accomplish....

All that would have to happen is for those uptight socialists down east to develop the same attitudes  towards families as Albertans and Native Canadians.  For all their problems the Natives are out reproducing the White Folks.

In eastern Canada and BC and the Yukon the birth rate is around 10 per 1000.  In Alberta it is 30% higher.  Even in Manitoba and Saskatchewan it is 20% higher.  In Alberta you certainly are more likely to run into Palinesque clans but in all three provinces you also have a strong Native cohort.  And up north, in the Territories it is 60% higher while in Nunavut it is 140% higher.  Both of those are Native dominated societies.  The Inuit, I would suggest because of their relatively recent* exposure to White Society (as opposed to White Traders) still have the most semblance of their traditional structures intact. Source

It is not that we don't know how to solve the problem of creating more Canadians.  That bit is the fun bit.  The only question is how do we support them.

I would be placing my bet on the clan - and not looking at every new birth as a potential ward of the state and a source of dishonour to the mother and her family.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
* Most Canadian Government intervention in the north appears to have not happened until the era of Diefenbaker and Mowat and the forced relocation of the Inuit to the High Arctic in the 50's.  Consequently their has been less time for the Government to damage their society than there has on the prairies or in the east.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 11:45:54 by Kirkhill »
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Offline Kirkhill

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2008, 15:01:19 »
Quote
....The most important thing to know about the left today is that it is centered on social issues. At root, it always has been, ever since the movement took form and received its name in the revolutionary Paris of the 1790s. In order to drive toward a vision of true human liberation, all the institutions and moral codes we associate with civilization had to be torn down. The institutions targeted in revolutionary France included the monarchy and the nobility, but even higher on the enemies list of the Jacobins and their allies were organized religion and the family, institutions in which the moral values of traditional society could be preserved and passed on outside the control of the leftist vanguard.

Full human liberation always remained the ultimate vision of the left--Marx, for one, was explicit on this point--but the left in its more than 200-year history has been flexible and adaptable in the forms it was willing to assume and the projects it was willing to undertake in pursuit of its anti-institutional goals. For more than a hundred years, the central project of the global left was socialism.

It's hard to credit today, but as recently as the 1940s most Western political elites believed government ownership of business and national planning were the keys to economic modernization. Even when socialism's economic prestige was eroded by the West's capitalist boom after World War II, socialism retained credibility as a means of income redistribution.

It was the turbulent 1960s that proved a strategic turning point for the left. The worldwide social and cultural upheavals that culminated in 1968 were felt as a crisis of confidence by institutions in the West. Some institutions (universities, for example) defected to the rebels, while others saw their centuries-long influence on the population greatly weaken or drain away virtually overnight.

In the short run, most political elites weathered the storm. A big reason, the left gradually realized, was that socialist economics had become an albatross. Increasingly, the democratic parties of the left in Western countries downplayed socialism or even decoupled from it, leaving them free to pursue the anti-institutional, relativistic moral crusade that has been in the DNA of the left all along.

This newly revitalized social and cultural agenda made it possible for the left to shrug off the collapse of European communism and the Soviet Union nearly two decades ago. Even in countries like China where the Communist party retained dictatorial power, socialist economics became a thing of the past. Attempts to suppress religion and limit the autonomy of the family did not.

For the post-1960s, post-socialist left, the single most important breakthrough has been the alliance between modern feminism and the sexual revolution. This was far from inevitable. Up until around 1960, attempts at sexual liberation were resisted by most educated women. In the wake of the success of Playboy and other mass-circulation pornographic magazines in the 1950s, men were depicted as the initiators and main beneficiaries of sexual liberation, women as intolerant of promiscuity as well as potential victims of predatory "liberated" men.

With the introduction of the Pill around 1960, things abruptly began to change. Fears of overpopulation legitimated a contraceptive ethic throughout middle-class society in North America, Europe, Japan, and the Soviet bloc. China, which discouraged contraception and welcomed population gains under Mao Zedong, flipped to the extreme of the One Child policy in 1979, shortly after pro-capitalist reformers took charge and fixed on strict population control as an integral and unquestioned part of the package of Western-style development.

The fact that the Pill was taken only by women gave them a greater feeling of control over their sexual activity and eroded their social and psychological resistance to premarital sex. "No fault" divorce, a term borrowed from the field of auto insurance, in reality amounted to unilateral divorce and began to undermine the idea of marriage as a binding mutual contract oriented toward the procreation and nurturing of children. Contrary to nearly every prediction, the ubiquity of far more reliable methods of contraception and the growing ideological separation of sex from reproduction, coincided with a huge increase in unwed pregnancies.

Though earlier versions of feminism tended to embrace children and elevate motherhood, the more adversarial feminism that gained a mass base in virtually every affluent democracy beginning in the 1970s preached that children and childbearing were the central instrumentality of men's subjugation of women. This more than anything else in the menu of the post-socialist left raised toward cultural consensus a vision in which the monogamous family was what prevented humanity from achieving a Rousseau-like "natural" state of freedom from all laws and all bonds of mutual obligation.

If this analysis is correct, the single most important narrative holding the left together in today's politics and culture is the one offered--often with little or no dissent--by adversarial feminism. The premise of this narrative is that for women to achieve dignity and self-fulfillment in modern society, they must distance themselves, not necessarily from men or marriage or childbearing, but from the kind of marriage in which a mother's temptation to be with and enjoy several children becomes a synonym for holding women back and cheating them out of professional success.

  Source

This exegesis of the left's philosophy is largely in accord with where I find myself.

In Israel the principle internal tension comes from the divide between the Corporatist Jabotinski Faction of the Jews of the Diaspora (Likud) and their fellow Displaced Persons, the Socialists of the Kibbutzim (Labour).  The Nationalists versus the Internationalists (Workers of the World Unite).  This dichotomy is complicated by the presence of a Traditionalist Religious Faction. 

(Please note - if you are offended by flippant comments be advised that I do not question the right of Israel to exist, nor the right of Jews to defend themselves nor to create a society in whatever fashion they see fit. They have exactly the same rights as any other group.  They can have what they can hold.)

The same split of beliefs and factions are played out in every country in the world - including Canada.

The Kibbutzim were described by my Dad's mates in the Paras in derogatory (and I have no doubt, given that we are talking about 18-21 year old "celibates", envious ) tones, as Stud Farms.   Their belief, slanderous or not, was that in the Kibbutzim men of their age not only were not forced to be celibate (officially) but in fact had access to all the women and would never have responsibility for their children because the "State-Kibbutz" would raise them.  For a 19 year old Tom far from home with few friendly female faces around it all sounded too much like paradise and much too good for those "jew-boys" hiding guns to kill them, murdering them in their cots and hanging their sergeants.  There was certainly a degree of animosity - mutual.

Leaving aside the viciousness of the jew-baiting inherent in that belief (in 1967 Dad could find himself cheering on Israeli Paras), the notion that fostered the concept of the Kibbutzm is at the heart of the ongoing pressure towards separating the family and the church from education, putting it in the hand of a socially inclined state apparatus (bureaucrats and teachers), reducing the standards for removing children from their family (residential schools were part of that continuum and related to the phenomenon that drew socialism out of Manchester churches and Ayrshire libraries and the CCF out of a Scots Methodist Minister - Bill Blaikie will understand the connection).  It is also part and parcel with the push to national early daycare and keeping children in school longer. 

State run "orphanages" are a staple of Stalinist (and for that matter Hitlerian) regimes.  Ceaucescu's being only the most recent and notorious.

It is also the driving force behind Death/Inheritance Taxes.  In the early 60s, when the Beatles wrote the song "Taxman" they and many other Brits, including my Father and Sean Connery, were driven to leave Britain by the taxes imposed by Labour.  This was the era of the National Trust when impoverished "Great" families were required to sell-off/donate/open their estates because the tax burden was too great for them to be able to afford to keep their property.  That was an explicit aim of Labour's socialist policies - to drag everyone down to the same starting point in the expectation that with an equal start and equal opportunity then an equal outcome would eventuate and the millenium would be achieved, So help them God.  And God was an explicit part of their belief system (The hymn "Jerusalem" (lyrics)was, for many years, the Labour Party's anthem - sung along with "The Red Flag" and "The Internationale" - thus reflecting the the internal tensions within the Labour Party).

My Grandfather reflected the personal tensions of that struggle between Nationalists and Internationalists.  He was son of an Ayrshire miner and Labour Party organizer and as such associated with Socialism.  Burns was his favourite poet (Nationalist) but his favourite poem - after Tam O'Shanter - was "Is there for Honest Poverty" - best known for its line ..."The Rank is but the Guinea's stamp, the man's the gowd (gold) for a' that"  a favourite of the Internationalists and the Marxists.  But he, like most of his ilk, was also a staunch Presbyterian, an Elder of the Kirk that held the Sabbath close and a practicing Mason (who like most in those days did not advertize the fact - even to his grandson).  He was also a strong militarist, taking pride in both his family's military service and his own service as an "ERK" in the RAF during WW2.  His wife, a fellow employee of the Co-Operative, and a member of "The Rural" and "The Women's Institute" shared his views

Jock Davidson and the Clydesiders like George Galloway were, and are an abomination to everything that they believed in.

No, I am firmly in agreement with the above article. It is not that there is a conspiracy.  A conspiracy suggests a few directing the many.  It is worse than that.  It is a generalized, cross-cultural belief that somewhere, somehow, sometime - IN THIS WORLD - the lion shall lie down with the lamb (here's the actual quote and here and here
 is its setting).  Just as a note - there is damlittle of peace in that passage.  It is all about revolution, red in tooth and claw, and divine retribution resulting in the good guys winning so that the only people left are those that agree with the aggrieved down-trodden. 

That is an Old Testament passage - based on the concept of the perfectability of this world.  A belief held dear by Scots and Boer Covenanters and Presbyterians and other Calvinists like the Huguenots.

The New Testament which defines "Christians", interestingly enough, takes the opposite view.  There is no perfection to be found in this world.  You will have to wait for the next to find peace.

PS - reference my previous submission - My Grandparents, dearly beloved but still stiff-necked Presbyterians and adorers of Tommy Douglas, would have been amongst the first to Tsk-Tsk at the notion of an unwed mother.  The Left come by their intolerance honestly.  It is in the genes and their traditional, family, upbringing.



« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 15:18:13 by Kirkhill »
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Offline S.M.A.

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #63 on: October 06, 2008, 02:02:25 »
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is an article to which we should give careful attention because it also applies to Canada;

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080905.wreckoning0906/BNStory/International/home
Immigration is absolutely essential for Canada’s future prosperity – hell’s bells increased immigration is essential for our very survival.

BUT we need carefully targeted immigration. We need to recruit people who will, largely, “hit the ground running” and integrate, fairly easily, into a sophisticated, tolerant, liberal-capitalist culture. There are, at this moment, two ‘good’ sources for large numbers of those ‘desirable’ people: China and India. There are also some ‘bad’ sources – areas that offer people who have, by and large, demonstrated difficulty in adjusting to Canada, even in the second generation.




Demographer David Foot was just interviewed on CBC tonight, IIRC. He says that Canada should hold off on to accepting more immigrants since it's unfair to the legions of young, educated people here in Canada who are just entering the work force, which I highly disagree with not only because I am an landed immigrant myself but also because such a measure would be a form of trade/labour, pro-unionist protectionism. It would also clash with your above conclusion/recommendation.

However, if you want people to actually "hit the ground running", such as those people from China and India, you have to stop all these labour barriers that prevent them from being PRODUCTIVE members of society, such as the lack of provision of recognition of foreign credentials- which explains why there are many highly-educated immigrants who are initially forced to actually work menial jobs while they go to school at night so they can eventually get local Canadian equivalents of their credentials. Like the Chinese pediatrician forced to become a cashier or that Indian man with 3 graduate degrees forced to become a security guard simply because no one recognized his credentials in Canada - the latter story obviously featured on a CBC special segment.

When I mean provision of recognition of foreign credentials, I mean something like allowing them to take the test to get the certification their foreign credentials without them having to go back to school just to get a Canadian equivalent; this happens in the US as well. I have even heard of a long-practicing doctor from the Philippines forced to become a NURSE in the US simply because it would take longer time and cost for her to get the US equivalent of her foreign medical degrees. Also, IIRC from a CPAC segment I was watching, of one of those Parliamentary Committees/hearings, it was mentioned that in Australia they had a system whereby skilled immigrants would be tested on whether their education measured up to Australian standards even before they were allowed to enter Australia.

In reference to what most of what everyone else on this thread said earlier, Dr. Foot's arguments seemed to agree with the statements here that Russia, Germany and Japan are actually in decline when it came to their populations; he also mentioned the eventual negative effect that China's one-child policy will have on its labour market and how India may eventually overtake China in population as well as a supplier of cheap skilled labour.

Furthermore, he also actually mentioned 3 powerhouses that will actually surprise everyone in decades to come: Turkey (not surprising considering the birth rate of a Muslim population like theirs- Foot said that the EU will actually need Turkey more than Turkey will need Europe), Brazil (not surprising as well considering they have a huge largely Catholic population which is reluctant to advocate much birth-control practices) and lastly Vietnam (which is another emerging Asian Tiger that he thinks may even surpass China- I think that part of that growth may be owed to the large number of Vietnamese expats/former boat-people/exiles returning who are eager to get a piece of Vietnam's recent boom; the fact that many of these former South Vietnamese exiles, from the various diasporas throughout the West, are Catholic may also help with the later population growth).

I am only surprised that Dr. Foot did not include Indonesia in his list of emerging population powerhouses; one cannot ignore the world's largest Muslim country- with about 234 million people- who are mostly Islamic, although there are some minorities like the Christian Indonesians in the Moluccas area of Indonesia and the usual Chinese diaspora/overseas Chinese community/华侨 that is characteristic of other Southeast Asian nations and whom control a sizeable portion of the wealth there.

http://www.footwork.com/profile.asp
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 02:17:30 by CougarDaddy »
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Offline Colin P

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2008, 14:58:57 »
Despite having a Univesity of London law degree and 7 year before the bar in Malaysia, my wife had to go through a 3 year process to become a lawyer here, including articling and "play court" Most of the stuff they covered was a rehash of what she previously studied. she also commented that the standards here were lower than Malaysia. Added to this was the fact that for the first year she was not allowed a work permit, which I figure cost us $40,000 in lost wages, which would have helped a lot.

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2008, 15:18:20 »
Despite having a Univesity of London law degree and 7 year before the bar in Malaysia, my wife had to go through a 3 year process to become a lawyer here, including articling and "play court" Most of the stuff they covered was a rehash of what she previously studied. she also commented that the standards here were lower than Malaysia. Added to this was the fact that for the first year she was not allowed a work permit, which I figure cost us $40,000 in lost wages, which would have helped a lot.

My neighbours moved to Vancouver from Taiwan back in 1994.  The father is a dentist, and four years later, he still wasn't able to practice, so they moved back to Taiwan while renting out their house here and dropping by every year to check on the paperwork.  They didn't move to Vancouver for good until 2005 or so.  I hope that timeline's not representative for overseas trained dentists

Offline S.M.A.

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #66 on: October 11, 2008, 15:48:11 »
Despite having a Univesity of London law degree and 7 year before the bar in Malaysia, my wife had to go through a 3 year process to become a lawyer here, including articling and "play court" Most of the stuff they covered was a rehash of what she previously studied. she also commented that the standards here were lower than Malaysia. Added to this was the fact that for the first year she was not allowed a work permit, which I figure cost us $40,000 in lost wages, which would have helped a lot.

See what I mean? Protectionist labour laws. Like the kinds that protectionist, unionist NDPers would favour.

And speaking of which, if the Conservatives want to appeal to a wider immigrant (who are already citizens and can vote, that is) base as well, they have to figure out a response to Stephan Dion's promise to amend for these protectionist measures by not only investing up to 800 million more to fix Canada's immigration system but called for the recognition of foreign credentials and degrees:

http://www.liberal.ca/story_14546_e.aspx

Quote
Liberals will restore fairness, streamline immigration system
RICHMOND, British Columbia – A new Liberal government will reverse the irresponsible immigration measures introduced by the Conservatives last spring and invest a total of $800 million in new federal funding to deal with the immigration backlog, welcome more new Canadians, and ensure that they succeed, Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion said today.

“Last spring the Conservative government gave the Immigration Minister sweeping discretionary powers to reject whole categories of immigration applications,” said Mr. Dion. “When I am elected Prime Minister I will immediately reverse these unfair and dangerous immigration changes.”

Mr. Dion went on to discuss the Liberal vision for Canada, which includes ensuring new Canadians receive the support they need to fully participate in Canadian society.

“Immigration will account for all of Canada’s net labour and population growth during the next five years and is a key element of the Liberal plan for Canada’s future success,” said Mr. Dion. “A Liberal government will make the necessary investments to increase the number of permanent residents to Canada every year and ensure they have the necessary tools to succeed.”

In full partnership with provinces, fully respecting agreements such as the one with Quebec, over four years, a new Liberal government will invest:

$400 million to modernize the immigration system, process applications more efficiently and support the admission of significantly more permanent residents to Canada.
$200 million in New Beginnings Canada – an enhanced language training initiative designed to help newcomers master the language necessary to get jobs that match their qualifications; and
an additional $200 million for Bridge to Work – a new initiative that will better prepare newcomers for the workplace through the use of internships, mentorship and work placement opportunities. And we will help get foreign credentials recognized, by providing direct financial support to assist foreign-trained doctors and other professionals in obtaining their Canadian qualifications.
“A successful immigration plan is built on the sound principles of fairness, accountability and opportunity,” said Mr. Dion. “We will welcome new Canadians everywhere in Canada to help us enrich our country, and we will provide and expand their opportunities to succeed.”

And how can we achieve that if we have attitudes like this prevailing among some voters?

I don't know about you but I'm in no flippin' hurry to have some "Doctor" with some third world matchbook degree just waltzing in and becoming a "Doctor" here..............a few years in our school system sounds about right to me.

 ::) Umm, You do realize that Canadian immigration doesn't just let anyone in? They accept landed immigrants and even just work permit holders, IIRC, based on a points system whereby they consider a number of the individual applicant's qualifications- including their degrees and so forth. It just seems so retarded that we have these well qualified invididuals who are told they can make a new life here only to find out they can't practice their trade in spite of their qualifications and years of experience. If you want to make sure whether their training is up to par with Canadian standards, then you should have them tested overseas, as Australia does, IIRC, before even allowing them in.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 16:33:48 by CougarDaddy »
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Offline Inky

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2008, 00:43:59 »
The idea that we will have to rely entirely on immigration to sustain our population in the future really brings up the risk of cultural clash. Won't the growing mass of foreign-educated people favor the development of some kind of sub-culture more and more removed from our original values?

My 0.02$
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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2008, 01:17:07 »
- We don't have to 'grow' to 'grow rich' and growth just for the sake of growth is the philosophy of the cancer cell.

- The richest countries in the world OTHER than the USA generally have populations under twenty million.

- I find it morally reprehensible that we strip away the well educated from developing countries so that they may drive taxis in Toronto.  Since it is a case of protectionism by our professions, I believe that the government should insist that NO immigration takes place UNTIL a professional has been accorded the Canadian equivalent and can walk off an airliner and straight into practice.  If the Canadian 'guild' wants him, they can do the accrediting.

- Our educational budgets are overburdened by ESL loadings.  Priorities should go to those who speak one or both of our two official languages.

- We should use immigration as a nation-building program in a scientific way.

- Refugees: No paper ID?  No passport?  Back to the last country they stopped in (or point of flight origin).  Airline pays the tab or loses their landing privileges into Canada.



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Offline TacticalW

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2008, 03:31:45 »
The idea that we will have to rely entirely on immigration to sustain our population in the future really brings up the risk of cultural clash. Won't the growing mass of foreign-educated people favor the development of some kind of sub-culture more and more removed from our original values?

My 0.02$

I recall there being an article on how Israel told Canada it was concerned that its stance towards them might change because of the rising muslim population. I suggest we all start making babies and contribute to the welfare of the country and our allies  8)

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2008, 05:56:27 »
The idea that we will have to rely entirely on immigration to sustain our population in the future really brings up the risk of cultural clash. Won't the growing mass of foreign-educated people favor the development of some kind of sub-culture more and more removed from our original values?

My 0.02$

Yes; just as, over the past 400+ years, successive "waves" of immigrants have added their "sub-cultures" to the mosaic - enriching it.
 
Also: we MUST separate immigration policy from refugee policy. We 'recruit' immigrants that we need and want for our own, selfish purposes.

We do not seek refugess and, broadly, we should not 'welcome' them to Canada.

A refugee is, by definition, a person who flees his home in fear of life or limb; the refugee, also by definition, 'wants' to return to his or her home as soon as it is safe. Our refugee policy should aim to 'welcome' refugees to safe, secure places as near as possible to their homes. There, we should provide services - health, education and so on, and we should work to end the crisis which 'made' the refugees in the first place. As soon as the crisis is resolved the refugees disappear - back to their homes.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2008, 16:01:11 »
I think we have redefined ourselves over the last 20 years. Canadians are seen overseas as being multicultural. Diverse. A true melting pot. When I first came here from the UK in 1979 at the age of 6, living in Ajax, a person of color, or non white, was rarely seen. Today, in my daughters Kindergarten class, in Whitby, she is one of 6 white students. The other 12 are Chinese, African Canadian, Indian and Pakistani. I have no problem with it, but it just goes to show, what an explosion of immigrants we have had over the last 20 years, and how it changes our identity. We are no longer that British influenced, Anglo Saxon, colony that has ruled for all these years. We are a nation of diversity and cultures.

And I disagree that our immigration policies is for our own selfish purpose. Those policies are in place to help others move to a safer, more prosperous place to live.   

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2008, 16:13:09 »
... Those policies are in place to help others move to a safer, more prosperous place to live.   

If that's the case then our politicians are quite mad and very bad.

All national policies, in all nations ought to be 'selfish' - they are there, primarily to benefit the country and the people in it. If, as a secondary or tertiary matter a policy can do something for others then that's probably, usually, a good thing but it's not why one makes policy.

The policies that help others move to safer places are the "out migration" policies of other nations - if they allow their people to leave (some nations make it quite difficult) and if we want those people then they get to come here. If one of the other of those conditions is not met then those unfortunate people may remain poor and in danger.

As I have said before, refugees are a whole other matter - and it does involve making people safe, or, at least safer. But we must keep immigrants and refugees and the policies involving each very separate from one another.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline S.M.A.

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2008, 16:36:48 »

We do not seek refugess and, broadly, we should not 'welcome' them to Canada.

A refugee is, by definition, a person who flees his home in fear of life or limb; the refugee, also by definition, 'wants' to return to his or her home as soon as it is safe. Our refugee policy should aim to 'welcome' refugees to safe, secure places as near as possible to their homes. There, we should provide services - health, education and so on, and we should work to end the crisis which 'made' the refugees in the first place. As soon as the crisis is resolved the refugees disappear - back to their homes.

I for one disagree with this notion. But both of us can at least agree that political refugees or those being persecuted in their home country -and would not thus not have any place to turn to- should be at least given the option of being able to apply to have refugee status here. And then you have asylees- those seeking political asylum.

You are obviously aware of those refugees fleeing due to political reasons or those conflicts or social upheavals that may be happening in their nation of origin, and the difference between them and those coming to Canada simply for economic reasons, but whom do not necessarily have anything to offer than the wllingness to work at a lower wage in dollars, such as those thousands of illegal Hispanics that flood the US borders everyday.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 16:41:36 by CougarDaddy »
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: A scarier strategic problem - no people
« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2008, 21:20:05 »
For refugees, Edward is right. The concept of refugees is people fleeing from persecution but who are willing to return to their homelands if their safety can be assured.

WRT immigrants, a more important point than even skills is attitudes. Skills can be taught, after all, but the people who choose to come to Canada (or lower Volta, for that matter), need to have the attitude that they are making their new home HOME, and there should be no attempt to drag their problems and attitudes from the old country to the new.

Samuel Huntington talks about the ideal of Civic Nationalism in his book "Who are We?", discussing the American experience. What I gained from that work is that large blocks of people coming en mass are trouble because they are "settlers" rather than immigrants, and bring their own defined culture and world view to the new nation, to the exclusion of others. We have seen this in Canada in spades, with Sikhs battling the Indian security service from Canada after the storming of the Golden Temple; Serbian and Croatian "Canadians" providing money, support and sometimes themselves to warring factions in former Yugoslavia, the LTTE levying "war taxes" on Canadians of Tamil descent to fund their insurgency in Siri Lanka and attempts to impose Sharia law and shut down free speech  in Canada by Islamic extremists.

I think we can all agree that these are not pieces of the cultural mosaic that  are welcome in Canada, but little or no effort is made to assimilate the newcomers to the social,  cultural, political or legal "norms" of Canadian society. Indeed, Multiculturalism explicitly calls for newcomers to remain "hyphenated", and not assimilate at all. I don't support that sort of multiculturalism, especially since it brings the seeds of trouble to our ground.


Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.