Topic: How Do Liberal MPs Feel About Dion Attacking Them?

[GAP]

How Do Liberal MPs Feel About Dion Attacking Them?
September 14, 2007
Article Link

Liberal leader Stéphane Dion is once again attacking Liberal MPs who supported the extension of Canada’s mission in Afghanistan – a mission that Dion and the Liberal cabinet sent Canadian troops on in the first place! How do Liberal MPs like Michael Ignatieff, Scott Brison and Garth Turner feel about Dion’s latest attack on them? How does former Liberal MP Bill Graham feel about Dion’s attack on him?:

The facts:


Dion said the 24 Liberal MPs who supported the motion were wrong to have done so. "They believed the government," Dion explained. (Montreal Gazette, September 14, 2007)
"It is very sad that some of us voted with them," said Dion. (Toronto Star, October 11, 2006)
Dion voted against the extension to the Afghan mission last session and is critical of Liberal interim leader Bill Graham for voting with the government. "I think our party made a big mistake. Our role is not to trust the government because they are giving you a briefing. You are not a minister any more. Our role is to check the government. We are in the Opposition. Wake up guys!" (National Post, June 30, 2006)
At the time, 24 Liberal MPs voted for the extension of the mission, including former interim Liberal leader Bill Graham, current Liberal Deputy Leader Michael Ignatieff and Liberal Platform co-chair Scott Brison. Garth Turner, now a Liberal MP, also voted for the extension of the mission
As Liberal Deputy Leader Michael Ignatieff (Etobicoke-Lakeshore) said: "Liberals need to remember this is a Liberal mission," he said. "We're in Afghanistan because of the leadership of the two previous Liberal governments ... We, as a party, cannot abandon what is right or what we believe for political convenience." (National Post, June 17, 2006)
As Liberal platform co-chair Scott Brison (Kings-Hants) said: "I don't think Liberals ought to be seeking to differentiate themselves on a mission that we actually started. We initiated the Afghan mission. We did it for the right reasons. Those reasons have not changed. (Globe and Mail, June 27, 2006)
The current Liberal MPs that supported the motion include Larry Bagnell, Scott Brison, Roy Cullen, Rodger Cuzner, Wayne Easter, Mark Eyking, Raymonde Folco, Albina Guarnieri, Michael Ignatieff, Derek Lee, John Maloney, Joe McGuire, John McKay, Karen Redman, Anthony Rota, Michael Savage, Scott Simms, Robert Thibault, Allan Tonks, Garth Turner, Tom Wappel, and Paul Zed (Hansard, May 17, 2006, Division No. 9)
Do these Liberal MPs agree with Dion’s assessment of them? Do they accept their leader once again criticizing and attacking them for standing by their principles and supporting a mission that the Liberals had originally sent Canadian troops on?
end

[E.R. Campbell]

I believe this issue does and will continue to bedevil the Liberal Party of Canada.

It is, indeed, their mission – their war. As Ruxted said, about 18 months ago: Prime Minister Chrétien did the right thing, for the right reasons in 2001 when he pledged Canadian troops for Afghanistan and in 2002 when he sent them to Kandahar. He did the right thing, albeit for the wrong reasons – for base and dishonourable reasons, when he sent Canadians back to Afghanistan, to join ISAF. Prime Minister Martin moved the mission from Kabul to Kandahar where our forces have done and are doing real, measurable good for Afghanistan and the Afghans and where we are serving our own interests, too.

M. Dion opposed the mission extension. That’s fine; he’s entitled to change his mind. He must have changed his mind because he was in the cabinet when Chrétien sent us to Afghanistan and when Martin sent us to Kandahar and if he disagreed with either decision he would have, should have resigned because he is an honest and honourable man, is he not? Other Liberals might not have changed their minds. People like Brison – who also served in the Chrétien and Martin cabinets – have been fairly silent. He didn’t mention Afghanistan in his speech at the Dec 06 Liberal Leadership Convention. Is that because he couldn’t attack Prime Minister Harper for following Liberal plans and policies and for adopting a course of action he (Brison) supports?

I wonder how many other Liberals understand that voting with Dion means voting against Liberal Party policies and voting against Liberal Party values as expressed by Paul Martin in his foreword to his 2005  “International Policy Statement” when he said:  ”... we are now in a position to reinvest in our international role. For decades, there was a slow erosion in Canada’s commitment to its military, to international assistance and to our diplomatic presence around the world. Then, during the nineties, there were more cutbacks ... As a result, our international presence has suffered ... Now is the time to rebuild for Canada an independent voice of pride and influence in the world ... The first duty of government is to protect its citizens. That responsibility today has been complicated by the emergence of new threats: rogue states, failed and fragile states, international criminal syndicates, weapons proliferation, and terrorists prepared to act with no concern for the cost in human lives, including their own.”

Dion was a minister when Martin said that but, suddenly, because Dion no longer has a limousine and a grand office, everything has changed. I don’t buy it; Dion is using Canadian soldiers and Canadian casualties for his own present, petty, partisan, political purposes. He’s a weak man with weak ideas.

[Good2Golf]

Larry Bagnell, Scott Brison, Roy Cullen, Rodger Cuzner, Wayne Easter, Mark Eyking, Raymonde Folco, Albina Guarnieri, Michael Ignatieff, Derek Lee, John Maloney, Joe McGuire, John McKay, Karen Redman, Anthony Rota, Michael Savage, Scott Simms, Robert Thibault, Allan Tonks, Garth Turner, Tom Wappel, and Paul Zed.

Well done to these folks for putting partisanship aside and voting on Canadians' principles.  Perhaps after the next election, these folks could make a quick, 50' jog and we'd be better served.

Chretien Jr. Dion is not someone principled enough for these folks to continue their service to their constituencies under...


G2G

[Flip]

Had anyone seen Dion interviewed by Peter Mansbridge on the National
Thursday night? Mansbridge screwed him to the wall!! 

"Mr Dion, when will you go to Afghanistan?"

"I'll Try" was all he could say..........

I can't recall seeing a politician beaten up so badly by a news anchor

[cheeky_monkey]

Had anyone seen Dion interviewed by Peter Mansbridge on the National
Thursday night? Mansbridge screwed him to the wall!! 

"Mr Dion, when will you go to Afghanistan?"

"I'll Try" was all he could say..........

I can't recall seeing a politician beaten up so badly by a news anchor

For who are interested, here is the video link. http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/video/politicseconomy/at_issue_dion_interview.html

The Afghanistan piece starts at 2:45. The "Not going to Afghanistan" bit is at 5:10.

[Flip]

Thanks Cheeky Monkey!

I couldn't find a link..........

[retiredgrunt45]

He's a weak man with weak ideas.

I totally agree, the man has no spine.

 I applauded the way Peter Mansbridge nailed him to the wall, it looked like he was close to tears Were's my mommy.

Well done! I don't think he'll be doing an interview with Peter anytime soon

[Flip]

At the end, Mr. Mansbridge muttered under his breath "we'll leave it at that then".

Hmmmm..........

Who's the leader here? 

Well done! I don't think he'll be doing an interview with Peter anytime soon

I think you're right - and it's Dion's loss! 
I get the impression The National doesn't need any goodwill from Stephane Dion.

[retiredgrunt45]

At the end, Mr. Mansbridge muttered under his breath "we'll leave it at that then".

Priceless!!

 I think people watching that program got a new sense of how weak Dion really is. If anything they will lose respect for him, for not visiting our troops in Afghanistan, while many other MP's have made the effort.

 First there was the noose and now that he has put his head through it, now all he has to do is jump of the chair. That will most likely happen in October.

[KPR]

Yes it was absolutely priceless , I could not believe I was watching CBC . Mansbridge finally exposed Dion's under belly

[fullmetalparka]

"You cannot dispute that I have not done a lot. I am a leader!"

What an ***.

[Yrys]

"You cannot dispute that I have not done a lot. I am a leader!"

He seems to confuse the fact of having the post of a leader (the party),
and BEEING a leader...

Someone can be a leader without a title, as someone with a title won't always be one...

[Flip]

If anything they will lose respect for him, for not visiting our troops in Afghanistan, while many other MP's have made the effort.

I think Mansbridge went twice. 

Where does THAT leave Dion?

If he goes now....It's because Peter Mansbridge told him too...

[kratz]

I would attempt to defend his slip of words, translating French thoughts into English words, in response during an unguarded moment to the suprise question.

The fact is, he is trying to convince Canadians that he should be the next Prime Minister. If such a minor gaff can be attributed to a language mix up during an interview, imaging this party leader under pressure if he was the head of the government.

[GAP]

The Hypocrisy in Stephane Dion’s Position on the Canadian Mission to Afghanistan
 Saturday, September 15, 2007
Article Link

All does not seem to be well with Opposition Leader, Stephane Dion and the Liberal caucus these days.

There is an article in the Montreal Gazette in which Dion publicly attacked 24 of his own MP’s for voting to extend the mission in Afghanistan. Comments made by Dion seem to imply that his fellow MP’s were not intelligent enough to listen to arguments, both for and against the extension of the mission and come to a sound decision.

Dion said the 24 Liberal MPs who supported the motion were wrong to have done so.

"They believed the government," Dion explained.

In other words, not only were they wrong, they were duped.

It does not matter to him that this mission begun under a previous Liberal government. It also does not matter to Dion that the decision to move the Canadian troops from the relative safety of Kabul to Taliban-plagued Kandahar in June 2005 was endorsed by the Liberal cabinet, of which he was a member. They were aware that the mission in Kandahar would be a dangerous one, where they risked attacks from and combat with al-Qaida and Taliban insurgents, but they still proceeded.

Then Prime Minister, Paul Martin responded to criticism from those who said that sending troops to Afghanistan would endanger Canada, by saying that fighting terrorism is the government's responsibility.

Even back then, Gen. Rick Hillier of the Canadian Armed Forces admitted that there was a likelihood of Canadian troops encountering Taliban fighters and their al-Qaeda allies.

"Gen. Rick Hillier said last week that Canadian troops will likely encounter Taliban fighters and their al Qaeda allies".

As far back as 2005, critics of the Afghanistan mission were already expressing concern of the increased risks, including IED’s that Canadian troops would face, but the Liberal government still proceeded with it with full cabinet approval.

According to, Eric Margolis, a seasoned war correspondent, in his criticism of the Canadian mission.

"You cannot go into a war and expect you're not going to get shot at. It's foolish and it's illusory to do so, so Canadians have to be prepared,"
More on link

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I think the voices of dissent in the Liberal ranks will start to be a little louder after this public disrespect shown by their leader. It's interesting how fast tides can change though from a once very powerful party with very powerful leaders to one that many people are having trouble taking seriously. It still amazes me that they are not lower in the polls. a party that can't even field an effective leader is not much of a contender for governing our great country yet there are still a lot of folks who will vote for them according to the pollsters.

[RangerRay]

That's because there are many Liberal voters, particularly from Ontario on east, who inherited their voting patterns from their ancestors.  I've heard it many times:

"My dad voted Liberal, my dad voted Liberal, my grandpappy voted Liberal...I'm voting Liberal!"

"Do you know anything about their policies on day care, defence, environment, crime, or immigration?"

"No."

"Well, I know you.  They run counter to everything you told my you believe."

"Really?  Well, I'm still voting Liberal.  I come from a long line of Liberals."

 

One blogger identified their species, Liberalus inheritus, IIRC.  We have the same thing with NDP voters here in BC, Dipperus inheritus. 

Anyways...

If Dion loses all the by-elections this week, I think there will be a greater push inside the Liberal Party to oust him.  If he cannot win in his home province, with what should be popular policies there (and especially if the Tories gain a seat or two), I don't think he will last to the next election (whenever that one is called).  The knives will be out, moreso than they are now.

[GAP]

From the posted polls, it looks like the Conservatives might win one riding, the  Bloc or Liberal one, and the other looks either Bloc or NDP.

[2 Cdo]

Had anyone seen Dion interviewed by Peter Mansbridge on the National
Thursday night? Mansbridge screwed him to the wall!! 

"Mr Dion, when will you go to Afghanistan?"

"I'll Try" was all he could say..........

I can't recall seeing a politician beaten up so badly by a news anchor

"That's not fair!" :'(

That was some of the funniest TV I've seen in years.

Leader? This "man" is beyond weak. He sounds weak and he looks like he is always about to burst into tears. I still say he was the best thing to happen to the Conservative Party.

[Flip]

It still amazes me that they are not lower in the polls.

Not me.

So very many of us cling to a dream that we can just jump back to a pre-911 world.
Too few of us want to be bothered with educating ourselves beyond
watching 20 min.s of news. Yet we all have an opinion.
If you remove factors like practicalities and facts the liberal message is very compelling. 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Looks like the good ship Liberal is springing some leaks.....gee that's soooo sad.
This on CTV shared with the usual disclaimers

Liberal infighting shows panic over byelection

Political analyst and former Liberal MP Jean Lapierre appears on CTV's 'Question Period' on Sunday, Sept. 16, 2007.
 
Marcel Proulx, Liberal Leader Stephane Dion's Quebec lieutenant, on CTV's 'Question Period' on Sunday, Sept. 16, 2007.
 
Joel-Denis Bellavance on CTV's 'Question Period' on Sunday, Sept. 16, 2007.
 
CTV.ca News Staff
 
Updated: Sun. Sep. 16 2007 7:56 PM ET

Some in the Liberal camp may be anticipating defeat in the Outremont byelection in Quebec if a mischief-making article is any indication, says the riding's former Liberal MP.

Jean Lapierre told CTV's Question Period on Sunday that the Halifax Chronicle-Herald news story on Saturday blaming Michael Ignatieff for not helping enough has to come from Liberal Leader Stephane Dion's people.

The allegation suggests Dion's supporters fear Ignatieff is trying to undermine the Liberal leader, to raise his own stature within the party.

A sample quote from the article about what the Dion people saw as organizationally questionable decisions: "'There's one of two options,' said one source close to Mr. Dion. 'There's some folks there who are either grossly incompetent or intentionally malicious'."

Lapierre shook his head at the accusation. "That's incredible. That's what I would call a pre-emptive strike," he said. "But it's total fabrication."

The Liberals "have never had so much help from Liberal stars," including Ignatieff, said Lapierre, who stepped down in late January to become a political analyst for the TVA network in Quebec.

"Mr. Dion has spent at least seven days in the riding. He's still there today. I don't think they can blame it on anybody else. Everybody has been a good trouper in this one."

This article has hurt the morale of organizers in the riding, he said. They wonder "who was so crazy to spin something like this," he said.

Marcel Proulx, Dion's Quebec lieutenant, told Question Period that Ignatieff has been involved in Outremont.

"Last Sunday, he was in Outremont" doing canvassing, he said. Ignatieff's main organizers in Quebec -- MPs Denis Coderre and Pablo Rodriguez -- have been involved in the Outremont fight.

"We're very satisfied with everybody's involvement and everybody's good work in these ridings," Proulx said.

The Liberals do appear to be in trouble in the riding, which they have held almost continuously since 1935.

Lapierre noted the Liberals held the riding in 2004 and 2006, at the height of the sponsorship fallout.

A Unimarket poll for La Presse released Friday gives star NDP candidate Thomas Mulcair -- a former provincial Liberal environment minister -- a 38 per cent to 32 per cent lead over Liberal candidate Jocelyn Coulon.

Both the Liberals and NDP are pouring outside workers into the riding in advance of Monday's vote, one of three byelections to be held in Quebec.

The Liberals are down only three percentage points from the party's vote share in the 2006 federal election.

Where the NDP appears to be gaining is from Bloc Quebecois supporters. The poll found that 40 per cent of BQ supporters said they would switch their vote to the NDP.

The Bloc is polling at 14 per cent, putting it in third place. But in 2006, the party captured about 29 per cent of the vote in Outremont. The NDP only captured 17 per cent in that election.

Lapierre said that might be intentional, with the Bloc hoping to damage the Liberals.

However, the poll also found the electorate to be in flux, with 43 per cent saying they could yet shift their vote again on Monday.

Lapierre said a Liberal organizer in Outremont told him the party could still win the riding by 700 votes if they get their supporters to the polls.

In comparison, the NDP has no organization in Outremont and the outcome may come down to organizational strength, he said.

Lapierre pronounced the riding too close to call.

Joel-Denis Bellavance, Ottawa bureau chief for La Presse, told Question Period that he's heard the NDP will import 500 workers into the riding on Monday to help get that party's vote out.

In byelections, people tend to vote more for the candidate than the party, he added.

The governing Conservatives are running fifth in Outremont with seven per cent support -- one point behind the Green party.

Sen. Michael Fortier, Prime Minister Stephen Harper's public works minister who lives in the riding and does not have a seat in the House of Commons, chose not to run in the byelection.

The Tories do appear competitive in Roberval-Lac St. Jean -- which has been a Bloc Quebecois stronghold. The poll gave the party 43 per cent support, six percentage points more than the BQ.

Lapierre said the Tory candidate there is utilizing the strength of his municipal organization. "The Tories have no organization after 18 months in power," he said.

The third byelection is in Saint Hyacinthe-Bagot. The Bloc appears positioned to hold that seat.

The Liberals are not competitive in either of those ridings, if the poll is accurate.

[MCG]

Dion voted against the extension to the Afghan mission last session and is critical of Liberal interim leader Bill Graham for voting with the government. "I think our party made a big mistake. Our role is not to trust the government because they are giving you a briefing. You are not a minister any more. Our role is to check the government. We are in the Opposition. Wake up guys!" (National Post, June 30, 2006)

So, Dion's position is that the Official Opposition is to blindly oppose everything from the government regardless of merit?

[Good2Golf]

...Our role is not to trust the government because they are giving you a briefing....

Wow!  And yet, Dion is content, not having visited Afghanistan himself, to heed the advice of briefers to decry the mission in Afghanistan -- at the very least, he should feel morally obligated to visit Afghanistan and speak to Afghan politicians and citizens...

[Flip]

Wow!  And yet, Dion is content, not having visited Afghanistan himself, to heed the advice of briefers to decry the mission in Afghanistan -- at the very least, he should feel morally obligated to visit Afghanistan and speak to Afghan politicians and citizens...

Ditto!
+1

I hope he goes and gets briefed to the edge of his sanity.

[cheeky_monkey]

Lets be serious here. He knows that IF he does go to Afghanistan, he WILL see the good of the mission, and won't be able to ignore it.

Thats one HUGE if. So he won't be going any tiem soon...