Topic: Ex-serviceman risks eviction by flying Canadian flag on balcony

[Larry Strong]

I just found this on the CBC news site. This is a real shame.

Reproduced in accordance with the fair dealing provisions of the Copyright Act

Ex-serviceman risks eviction by flying Canadian flag on balcony
Eastern Ontario housing authority wants flag removed
Last Updated: Monday, July 14, 2008 | 4:12 PM ET Comments57Recommend84CBC News
Mark Murray flies this flag in support of troops and their families. (CBC)An ex-serviceman refuses to take down the Canadian flag on his balcony in a subsidized housing unit in Cardinal, Ont., even though the local housing authority is threatening to evict him.

Mark Murray, 53, served with the Royal Canadian Regiment and the Canadian Airborne Regiment in the 1970s and 1980s.

He lives in the Seaway Apartments, which are operated by the community housing authority in United Counties of Leeds and Grenville.

He said Friday he was given the flag by his local branch of the Royal Canadian Legion last year, and he has flown it ever since.

Now he has received more encouragement not to take down the flag.

"I got a phone call here from Sean Wilson. He's the brother of Mark Wilson who was killed in action in Kandahar on Oct. 7, 2006, and he sent me a message here asking me not to take down my flag — to leave it up.

"I don't have the heart to take it down … I can't do it now," he said.

Last Thursday, an official from the community housing department told him the flag had to come down or he would be sent an "N-5" letter, the first step in the process leading to eviction.

He was told the flag violates a rule requiring all subsidized properties to have a uniform appearance.

"I was going to negotiate with them, and ask for a flagpole in the back. But this has taken on a new meaning now, to the families, and to the troops," Murray said.

The director of community and social services, Dorothy Theobald, told CBC News Monday that her department is trying to work with Murray, but, she said, the flag can't stay. [/qutoe]

[Lone Wolf AT]

When I lived in the shacks we weren't allowed to have any flags up either.

Including the Canadian flag.

[Strike]

Same for me in the apartment I lived in in Dartmouth.  We may not agree with it, but it's not uncommon for housing agencies/landlords to have such regs.

[Chapeski]

I'm afraid I have to side with Mr. Murray on this one. Actually, I'm not afraid of siding with him, I support his choice. There should be some leeway on these sorts of issues, and I give him credit for sticking to his guns. I may be "new" to the Army, but I appreciate his dedication. I hope it works out well for him.

[Niteshade]

Funny.

I work as a property manager and one of my duties is to manage our legal and account portfolio's.

The N5 mentioned (Notice to terminate a tenancy early) can only be issued for 3 criteria:

1. Your, or a guest, willfully damaged the rental unit of complex

2. You, or a guest, substantially interfered with the reasonable enjoyment of another tenant OR the lawful right or privilege of another tenant

3. The number of people living in the unit is more than that permitted by health/safety/fire standards.

Nowhere does flying a flag affect any of the above unless someone is complaining it offends them or something of like - and even then it is not a substantial interference.

Secondly, the housing complex needs to take him to a board hearing under an L2 application which is restricted under the aforementioned N5....

Thirdly, and only if this guy presents his case very very poorly will he actually get evicted. If this guy makes sure the media is at each of these hearings, there is no way in hell a board will issue an order instructing him to remove the flag or move out.

This is laughable.

It is insulting.

Here. call them up like I will be doing first thing tomorrow morning:

http://www.uclg.ca/en/contact_us/index.asp

Express your disent.

Nites

[karl28]

Flying your national flag as long as it is done respectfully should not create this kind of problem .   It's a Damn shame that Mr. Murray  has to go through this at all .   I hope that it works out for him in the long run . 

[greyman_11]

I hope Mr.Murray sticks to his guns and keeps his flag up. I'm sure no judge or committee will evict a person simply because of this. If they do it will truly show how sad this world has come to that someone cannot proudly fly their national flag. If they want to make him remove his flag, I hope they make those who have flower pots on their balcony's or anything that is not uniform with the rest remove it. I would put money on the fact that if you walk by this building you would see some balcony's lined with flower pots. It ALL has to be uniform right???

This is such a joke.


 

[retiredgrunt45]

I have a flag flying in my backyard of my rental housing complex in London ontario and i have never been asked to take it down. Its been up since our men and women went to Afghanistan and its staying up until they all come home.

 Stick to your guns Mr. Murray and don't let a few malcontents tell you otherwise.

 

[axeman]

If that was me I'd be gettting a  lawyer . the flag would be flying , Oh Canada would be played at 0800 daily, if i could find a safe fireing direction  a One gun salute every now and then ...

[Carcharodon Carcharias]

Greetings to all of our happy valued guests and devoted members.

Any of my neighbours can fly the national flag any day without complaint from me.  I fly one in my back yard too, in fact both are openly displayed.

I and others have served under two.

Whether its the ANF here, or the 'maple leaf', back in dear ole Canada.

When is it a crime to be patriotic?

Happy days,

OWDU

[ENGINEERS WIFE]

"He was told the flag violates a rule requiring all subsidized properties to have a uniform appearance."



If this is the case I would love to see ALL his neighbors flying the Canadian flag.  Then they would all be uniform.    
If I was asked to take my flag down, I sure as hell would be on the phone, email, whatever it took to keep it flying.
As Peter Griffin would say "That really grinds my gears"   

[retiredgrunt45]

if i could find a safe fireing direction a One gun salute every now and then ...

Carefull now Axeman, you could have the anti-gun panzies at your doorstep next. 

If this is the case I would love to see ALL his neighbors flying the Canadian flag.   Then they would all be uniform.     
If I was asked to take my flag down, I sure as hell would be on the phone, email, whatever it took to keep it flying.
As Peter Griffin would say "That really grinds my gears"   

That's not a bad idea, then I wonder what they would say to save face. Wankers!

Look at it this way, these people have nothing better to do but waste our money by siting in their little insignificant offices all day coming up with pathetic excuses like this to justify their jobs. Just another example of bureaucracy at its very worst.

[ArmyVern]

OK, where's our guys who are so apt at creating petitions?

I think it'd be great for Mr Murray to have a whole bunch of signatures of support to take into his hearing with him as well.

You know, something to liven the place up. Make it interesting; initiative, originality, and gawd-forbid to add some colour to that big grey world of his that is "how it has to be". Small steps.

The entire problem with this situation is (and this is why every single one of us can pick out these areas as soon as we drive into them):

He was told the flag violates a rule requiring all subsidized properties to have a uniform appearance.

Nothing at all like rules telling a whole group of people they are mandated to be he same, remain the same, never grow. Awesome way to enforce the "you will always be what you are now and will never amount to much more - never attempt to do so, and never attempt to express yourself because who will you be kidding?" - Conform to our grey, bleak vision of you. Pretty freakin' sad actually.

[CBH99]

So let me make sure I've got this straight....

Some pencilneck little prick has NOTHING BETTER TO DO than sit there in his office - and threaten a former service member with eviction, for flying the Canadian flag??

I don't mean to sound crude or violent or immature.....but damn I wish we had some form of population control out there!!

Flying a Canadian flag is a matter of pride -- this man should be respected for his decision to fly our flag, not threatened with eviction.  The housing authority needs to pull their heads' out of their arses.

Just my .02

[Michael O'Leary]

Some pencilneck little prick has NOTHING BETTER TO DO than sit there in his office - and threaten a former service member with eviction, for flying the Canadian flag??

I don't mean to sound crude or violent or immature.....

Well, you did.  Is there some collective inability at work here that prevents the discussion of issues without resorting to profane insults?

[Shec]

The Canadian flag respectfully displayed by a Canadian citizen on Canadian soil that is owned by an institution of a duly constituted and recognized Canadian public government ?

It is not the Confederate Stars and Bars.  It is not the Swastika.  It is not the Hammer & Sickle.  It is not even the regimental guidon of the Janjaweed Militia.  But perhaps it should be replaced by the white flag of surrender.

[geo]

Then again, people should not be hanging em in their rooms..... as curtains.

[Danjanou]

I flew A Canadian flag from the balcony of my downtown apartment for years and no one seemed to mind. It did stcik out among all the rainbow flags and NDP posters though. A new flag prudly flies from our new house in East York, largest on the street and nothing but compliments form the neighbours so far.

A petition of support is not a bad idea. It also appears Cpl (ret’d) Murray has a new high powered ally in his fight Ontario Housing Minister Jim Watson.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/07/13/6144896-sun.html

[MedKAWD]

Touchy issue:

On the one side, this man has every right to fly the Canadian flag.  And his military service and detection causes a bit of a sting when people read about his situation.

On the other hand, its the rules of the Housing Complex.  Thats just how it is there, and if they make an exception for this man then they are going to have to make more in the future for other people.  And then where will it end?  What makes some people deserving of the right to fly the Canadian Flag, and others not?

As much as I think the rule itself about not flying flags in kind of ridiculous, it is the rule so I think he should obey it. 

Just a real shame he's put into that position. 

So the bottom line as it seams to me, is that the only way he will be allowed to fly the flag, is if the housing organization abolishes the rules on flying them and allows everyone to raise flags.

[TheCheez]

According to an article from the Ottawa Sun Mr Murray got what he wanted. Flag poles front and back of the building!

Congrats to him.

http://www.ottawasun.com/News/National/2008/07/15/6158976-sun.html

[MedKAWD]

According to an article from the Ottawa Sun Mr Murray got what he wanted. Flag poles front and back of the building!

Congrats to him.

http://www.ottawasun.com/News/National/2008/07/15/6158976-sun.html

Well there ya go, thats something they all can live with.

Good on him.

[tankie]

I am Canadian born and raised, British Tank Soldier by trade, i have the Maple Leaf stitched to every shirt collar and every helmet.  When asked if i can remove it i state my case...sir i am Canadian, not American and i don't want the locals mixing the two up! They nod their heads in a wise way and walk off.  My Canadian flag flys true, strong and free in my MQ in Andover Hampshire and god forbid the person that asks me to take it down.  Hats off to any serviceman  serving or ex, fighting for their country and wants to show patriotism.

Dieu et mon Droit

[milnews.ca]

<bureaucratic defence tangent>

Some pencilneck little prick has NOTHING BETTER TO DO than sit there in his office - and threaten a former service member with eviction, for flying the Canadian flag??

I don't mean to sound crude or violent or immature.....but damn I wish we had some form of population control out there!!

I understand the frustration, but before we attack any specific "pencilneck little prick" (P-NLP), let's also understand that these individuals have rules they have to follow (by law) from their governing body (usually consisting of appointed or elected folks).  Part of their job is to follow the rules, but part of their job is ALSO to try to make the situation fit the pigeonhole created by said rules.  One person's P-NLP for enforcing the rules one disagrees with is another person's hero for enforcing the rules they DO agree with....

</bureaucratic defence tangent>

That said, since the problem appears to be solved, and with politicians always getting e-mails/petitions/documentation castigating them for decisions, if you want to thank the governing body:
http://www.uclg.ca/en/government/council.asp

I can't find contact info on the council members, so I'm guessing you could send information care of the municipal clerk's office:

Clerk
Lorraine Crotty
25 Central Avenue West, Suite 100
Brockville, ON K6V 4N6    

Bus: 613-342-3840 ext. 2307
Fax: 613-342-2101

Couldn't find an e-mail, but if you go right to the bottom of this page
http://www.uclg.ca/en/contact_us/
you'll find a link under the Clerk's listing that allows you to send web-based e-mail.

[ivan the tolerable]

Just a thought here...

In defence of the "P-NLP", have you ever been in a position where you were expected to enforce a stupid rule that you knew was stupid?  I have.  What did I do?  I obeyed orders, did what I was told, and when the powers-that-be discovered that we were doing stupid things, it got stopped PDQ.

What if...  a beaurucrat had a set of directives handed to him by a committee (and remember, an elephant is a stallion built by a committee!) and he knows that some of this stuff, while sounding good on paper, in an office, is just plain stupid in the real world.  But, he would put his job in jeapardy if he doesn't "enforce" these rules.

Well, he could "enforce" these rules, all the while hoping that people get the hints he's dropping about taking this to the media and letting the public outcry force the committee to revise their rules to something more in line with common sense.

What I'm saying is that this is more likely the result of just the "nature-of-the-beast" of how committees work, and there could (possibly) be an underling beaurucrat secretly cheering this guy on.  Possibly.  Maybe then, we can give folks, even beaurucrats, the benefit of the doubt...

[milnews.ca]

In defence of the "P-NLP", have you ever been in a position where you were expected to enforce a stupid rule that you knew was stupid?  I have.  What did I do?  I obeyed orders, did what I was told, and when the powers-that-be discovered that we were doing stupid things, it got stopped PDQ.....

To follow up on this, note who's doing the talking about the solution here - emphasis mine:

A message from Mark Murray to Canadian soldiers around the world: "We won the battle."

The 53-year-old ex-corporal is claiming victory in his flag war with the United Counties of Leeds and Grenville, whose community housing agency ordered him to remove his Canadian flag from his Cardinal balcony.

"I think what we've done here is boosted morale for troops overseas," Murray said.

Community housing will erect a flagpole with a Canadian flag behind Murray's apartment building and fly another Canadian flag out front.

Edwardsburgh/Cardinal Twp. Mayor Larry Dishaw confirmed the plan.

"It's a compromise that should satisfy everybody," Dishaw said .....