Author Topic: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article  (Read 28741 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

    no nights for 3 weeks....

  • Lab Experiment #13
  • Directing Staff
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 105,125
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,309
  • WHERE IS MY BATON?
    • http://www.canadianbands.com./home.html
Army reports more weapons fired by accident
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/609527
Stephen Thorne
THE CANADIAN PRESS

OTTAWA – Cases involving the accidental firing of weapons have risen up to 40 per cent in two years and now comprise a quarter of all military trials in Canada, says the Canadian Forces' top judge.

In the judge advocate general's annual report to Parliament, Brig.-Gen. Kenneth Watkin says the total number of courts martial rose 16 per cent to 78 in 2007-08, while summary trials were up 17.6 per cent to 2,035.
Watkin reports that 510 summary trials – proceedings held before a senior officer as opposed to courts martial before a JAG – were held for negligent discharge of weapons offences in 2007-08. That's an increase of 115, or 29 per cent, over the previous year.

He notes the increases accompany a shift in training emphasis and a broader focus on weapons handling in the Canadian Forces – as well as expanded recruiting. Just 69 cases were heard in theatres of operation, most commonly Afghanistan.
"Negligent discharge offences occurred in greatest numbers at training units or in training circumstances," Watkin reports, adding that 96 per cent of offences occurred at five training facilities and 64 per cent of defendants were entry-level privates or officer cadets.
"The majority of negligent discharge offences are committed by CF members who are at early stages in their careers," the report says.

The rising number of young recruits is not the only reason behind the increase. After consulting with the chain of command, Watkin notes that military training has changed markedly in concert with Canada's fighting role in southern Afghanistan.
"Training in support of current operations is robust and increasingly tailored to the nature of the missions," he reported.

"Pre-deployment training for CF members being sent abroad may last the better part of a year and it is designed to emulate conditions and circumstances in Afghanistan.
"CF members undergo weapons training more frequently and have more ammunition available for training purposes than in the past."

The vast majority of summary trials – 53 per cent – were for ``conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline," a broad range of charges that includes some weapons-related offences and those related to drugs, drunkenness and sex offences.
Another 30 per cent of summary trials were for absence without leave.

In the most high-profile case involving an accidental discharge, Cpl. Matthew Wilcox of Glace Bay, N.S., faces court martial for manslaughter, criminal negligence causing death and negligent performance of duty. The charges were laid last fall after Cpl. Ronald Kevin Megeney was shot in his tent at Kandahar on March 6, 2007. Both soldiers were reservists.

Senior military commanders expressed confidence in their troops' weapons handling abilities, despite the rising number of misfires, Watkin said.
"It is suggested that one interpretation of the statistics may be that the opportunity for the negligent discharge of a weapon is significantly higher when a member spends more time training with weapons."

While the military justice system provides "an important means by which to address the serious matter of the inappropriate handling of weapons," the JAG maintains the key to reversing the tide lies in leadership and training.
IF YOU REALLY ENJOY THIS SITE AND WISH TO CONTINUE,THEN PLEASE WIGGLE UP TO THE BAR AND BUY A SUBSCRIPTION OR SOME SWAG FROM THE MILNET.CA STORE OR IF YOU WISH TO ADVERTISE PLEASE SEND MIKE SOME DETAILS.

http://www.planethelix.com/
Helix is back with new CD "Vagabond Bones...check out the "Make 'Em Dance" video.

Offline MJP

  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 19,643
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,105
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2009, 16:05:01 »
I wonder how many of the NDs are due to lack of familiarity with the weapons?  We are training and sending a good portion of personnel that don't handle weapons on a regular basis.  No regular usage means no confidence and increases the likelyhood that some sort of safety violation will occur.
I don't get PTSD.......I'm a carrier
#8 | Rank: 788 | Cbt Exp: 492,379,788 | Msns: 7,051

Offline Love793

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 153
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 481
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2009, 16:12:04 »
Simple solution to that. Handle them more often, teach them propperly and don't coddle troops when they do handle them.
The role of Cavalry is to add dash and colour, to a otherwise drab event called war.
#158 | Rank: 46 | Cbt Exp: 108,618 | Msns: 972

Offline Piper

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,560
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 514
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2009, 16:13:40 »
I wonder how many of the NDs are due to lack of familiarity with the weapons?  We are training and sending a good portion of personnel that don't handle weapons on a regular basis.  No regular usage means no confidence and increases the likelyhood that some sort of safety violation will occur.

Indeed. It would be interesting to see the MOCs/Units of the people convicted of having NDs outside of the recruits. I would imagine that many of these may come from CS/CSS units who don't get enough time to do weapons trg, especially on weapons like the C9/C6/9mm.

Also, could the increase in stats be a result of an increase in the reporting of NDs? I've heard tales of NDs at the unit level being dealt with informally as opposed to with charges.

For MJP, was it hard giving up your old unit avatar for your new loggie one?  ;)

Online -Skeletor-

  • Mentor
  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 32,992
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,713
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2009, 16:26:00 »
NDs happen in Infantry units too; on my tour I know of two NDs with rifles that were done by Reg Force Infantrymen in the BG. An another one ND by a Reserve Infantryman who fired off the smoke grenades on a vehicle.. in KAF...; people who aren't qualified on the vehicle shouldn't assume they know what they're doing an start hitting buttons.. especially red ones.
"We are trained, pushed & tested... In sweat... In blood... 'Till all that is left is Honor, Courage & Commitment to a Brotherhood & a Freedom that no man can take away from us. Through Pain our Strength grows and Battle our Glory rises. Born, Bred for the dogs of War..."

Offline Piper

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,560
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 514
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2009, 16:35:22 »
NDs happen in Infantry units too; on my tour I know of two NDs with rifles that were done by Reg Force Infantrymen in the BG. An another one ND by a Reserve Infantryman who fired off the smoke grenades on a vehicle.. in KAF...; people who aren't qualified on the vehicle shouldn't assume they know what they're doing an start hitting buttons.. especially red ones.

I didn't mean to sound like I was accusing CS/CSS types of being the CF's ND culprits (I'm a loggie myself). I was just musing as to whether we (in the support world) get enough weapons trg and if this lack of trg corresponds into higher ND rates vis a vis cbt arms units.

Offline dapaterson

  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 127,015
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,925
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2009, 16:36:53 »
Best court-martial quote of all time:

"Oh no, not again" - Inf major after a second ND into an Iltis on a single tour...
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

  • Drawing the crabs from Downunder :) WTF is TWL?
  • Banned
  • Milnet.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 29,540
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,281
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2009, 16:49:50 »
Two UD's on my tour, one using a Para-Minimi by a TPR (not long into the trip), the other a MAG 58, used by a SGT (two days before we flew out of Baghdad). Both were RAAC (Armoured)

This cost that SGT $1600 fine and he lost a citation for action against the enemy. The bullet whizzed between two heads at that, and if looks could kill.

The cause for both UDs were failure to complete the proper drills in sequence as directed by the current MLW (Manual of Land Warfare) for each weapon type.

Familiarity breeds contempt.

OWDU
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline Technoviking

    GAFF=ZERO.

  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 126,986
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,619
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2009, 16:51:06 »
The article already has the information you seek.  It said that the majority were entry-level privates and officer cadets.  Though in my day, we rarely handled ammunition with our firearms, I believe that the case now is perhaps a bit different.  Also remember that an "ND" with blank ammo is also charged (er..chargeable). 

Offline Piper

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,560
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 514
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2009, 16:54:13 »
The article already has the information you seek.  It said that the majority were entry-level privates and officer cadets.  Though in my day, we rarely handled ammunition with our firearms, I believe that the case now is perhaps a bit different.  Also remember that an "ND" with blank ammo is also charged (er..chargeable).

I was referring to the 36% that aren't done by recruits.

You brought up another point, are trg centers handing out charges for NDs with blanks more often? (I don't know, so I'm asking) 

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

  • Drawing the crabs from Downunder :) WTF is TWL?
  • Banned
  • Milnet.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 29,540
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,281
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2009, 17:13:01 »
Last week the Infantry Battalion I am contracted to had two UDs within a week, one with a F88SA1 (AUGA2) rifle, the other with F89A1-P (Minimi), both with blanks.

In the Australian Army a UD with blanks carries the same severity as using ball. Charges are mandatory.

After a UD, the weapon is cleared, quarantined and sent to an armourer 'as is' for an inspection IAW current EMEI instructions on UDs, and then followed by a complete tech inspection IAW the weapons own EMEI. Investigation follows on the evidence provided by an armourer, adn if the weapon is at fault, the outcome for the soldier is different. I have seen only a few of mechanical faults, as the result is usually that of the operator.

Any UD using blanks MUST be treated as if it was live ammo. Perhaps if soldiers are told this, followed by discipline by example, they will take their weapons handling on Ex more serious, as it can cost them money, and embarassment. 

EMEIs are our CFTOs.

Cheers,

OWDU
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline NinerSix

    Oh well.

  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 130,105
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 704
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2009, 17:40:56 »
An another one ND by a Reserve Infantryman who fired off the smoke grenades on a vehicle.. in KAF...

Some rather unfortunate consequences came out of that one.

There was a rumor of someone trying to clear a pistol this way on tour:
1) Remove loaded mag
2) Cycle the action x2
3) Lock slide to the rear
4) Insert loaded mag
5) Release the slide
6) Fire the action
7) *Puzzled look
8) Repeat steps 1 through 7 eleven more times.

* Dissident sigh

Offline MJP

  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 19,643
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,105
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2009, 17:50:26 »
Indeed. It would be interesting to see the MOCs/Units of the people convicted of having NDs outside of the recruits. I would imagine that many of these may come from CS/CSS units who don't get enough time to do weapons trg, especially on weapons like the C9/C6/9mm.

Also, could the increase in stats be a result of an increase in the reporting of NDs? I've heard tales of NDs at the unit level being dealt with informally as opposed to with charges.


I wasn't thinking so much the actual CSS units themselves but the people from other parts of the CF drawn in to those units to augment them.  Those for the most part are the people that never get to handle weapons that I was thinking of.  I know that most CSS people at an actual Svc Bn get trained on the weapons, not enough but more than some.

Quote
For MJP, was it hard giving up your old unit avatar for your new loggie one?  ;)

Nah it took me nearly a year to do it....so I was ready for it.
I don't get PTSD.......I'm a carrier
#8 | Rank: 788 | Cbt Exp: 492,379,788 | Msns: 7,051

Offline Piper

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,560
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 514
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2009, 17:55:15 »
I wasn't thinking so much the actual CSS units themselves but the people from other parts of the CF drawn in to those units to augment them.  Those for the most part are the people that never get to handle weapons that I was thinking of.  I know that most CSS people at an actual Svc Bn get trained on the weapons, not enough but more than some.

So people posted in from more 'garrison-ish' positions who have not handled a weapon for months/years?

Offline NFLD Sapper

  • Mentor
  • Milnet.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 145,682
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,754
  • CFSME INSTRUCTOR
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2009, 18:30:16 »
Some rather unfortunate consequences came out of that one.

There was a rumor of someone trying to clear a pistol this way on tour:
1) Remove loaded mag
2) Cycle the action x2
3) Lock slide to the rear
4) Insert loaded mag
5) Release the slide
6) Fire the action
7) *Puzzled look
8) Repeat steps 1 through 7 eleven more times.

* Dissident sigh

EDITED

Just checked the PAM and the fol is the way to unload the pistol:

remove the magazine from the pistol and place it in
the pistol compartment of the holster;
disengage the safety catch if applied;
cant the pistol slightly to the left and grasp the slide, pulling it back slowly (a round may or may not be ejected);
examine the body and chamber to ensure that they
are clear and allow the slide to go forward;
place an empty magazine on the weapon;
pointing the pistol in a safe direction, operate the trigger;
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 19:46:49 by NFLD Sapper »
CHIMO!
First in, Last out
Sappers Lead the Way

Just tell your wife she owes your life to some Muddy Old Engineer,
Some dusty, crusty, croaking, joking Muddy Old Engineer
#81 | Rank: 114 | Cbt Exp: 1,525,030 | Msns: 1,886

Offline George Wallace

  • Directing Staff
  • Milnet.ca Relic
  • *
  • 178,150
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 23,188
  • Crewman
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2009, 18:58:48 »
So people posted in from more 'garrison-ish' positions who have not handled a weapon for months/years?

No.  Not really.  As has been pointed out in several posts, there are several reasons that all lead down to one, no matter the Trade, no matter the rank, no matter the location, and that is simply familiarity with the weapon that the person is handling.   If a person is not familiar and competent in their weapons handling, they will likely have a ND, be it a sidearm or a crew served weapon, with live or blank rounds.

Proper TOETs are important to know and practice.
DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.

Any postings made by me which are made on behalf of Army.ca will be followed by the statement "George, Milnet.ca Staff".

Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline Rider Pride

  • Mentor
  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 18,028
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,415
  • Easy to draw, hard to spell
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2009, 18:59:21 »
Your above drill needs to include "visually and physically ensure chamber is clear" after locking the slide to the rear.

I don't have the PAM, but how could it be any other way with our issued pistol?
Audeamus

"Return with your shield, or upon it."

Offline Piper

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,560
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 514
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2009, 19:04:38 »
No.  Not really.  As has been pointed out in several posts, there are several reasons that all lead down to one, no matter the Trade, no matter the rank, no matter the location, and that is simply familiarity with the weapon that the person is handling.   If a person is not familiar and competent in their weapons handling, they will likely have a ND, be it a sidearm or a crew served weapon, with live or blank rounds.

Proper TOETs are important to know and practice.

Remedied by more training, IMHO. I know personally that right now I wouldn't be comfortable handling a Browning, C9 or grenade if I had one handed to me. I think I'd be fine with a C7, considering that I've done the drills for it countless times, but anything else...

Offline deh

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,435
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 54
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2009, 19:35:48 »
Cause the info in the pam is wrong IIRC.

It's supposed to be:

1) Remove loaded mag
2) Cycle the action x2
3) Lock slide to the rear
4) Release the slide
5) Insert loaded mag
6) Fire the action

I have been guilty of the

remove mag
rack round out of chamber (catch in mid air for style points)
jam finger in mag well
pull trigger
pray

Not recently mind you, I play by the book now.  Sometimes you can be too familiar with a weapon and forget to treat it as such.  From an 00010-010 which i am sure is binary for something rude. 
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

Offline George Wallace

  • Directing Staff
  • Milnet.ca Relic
  • *
  • 178,150
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 23,188
  • Crewman
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2009, 19:42:47 »
How many times have you seen someone **** twice, then remove the mag?  It happens quite often.  Thankfully, most catch their mistake and conduct a proper unload before they 'fire' the action.  This is why I agree with all who want more wpns handling done (correctly).
DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.

Any postings made by me which are made on behalf of Army.ca will be followed by the statement "George, Milnet.ca Staff".

Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline recceguy

    A Usual Suspect.

  • "Look, I don't know if shooting penguins will help the environment or not. But I do know that the decision shouldn't be in the hands of people who just wanna kill for fun."
  • Directing Staff
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 64,622
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,441
  • doddering docent to the museum of misanthropy
    • Army.ca
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2009, 20:04:27 »
I wonder how many of the NDs are due to lack of familiarity with the weapons?  We are training and sending a good portion of personnel that don't handle weapons on a regular basis.  No regular usage means no confidence and increases the likelyhood that some sort of safety violation will occur.

Quite often the 'offender' is just dog tired and not focused on what they are doing. Just glad to be back inside and thinking about a shower, meal and bed.
"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." 2007 winning entry, Texas A&M University - most appropriate definition of a contemporary term.

DISCLAIMER - my opinion may cause manginal irritation.

Offline MJP

  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 19,643
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,105
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2009, 21:43:23 »
So people posted in from more 'garrison-ish' positions who have not handled a weapon for months/years?

Yea plus those that aren't army but have been earmarked for deployment.  Not their fault they are not exposed to weapons enough.
I don't get PTSD.......I'm a carrier
#8 | Rank: 788 | Cbt Exp: 492,379,788 | Msns: 7,051

Offline MJP

  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 19,643
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,105
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2009, 21:48:10 »
Quite often the 'offender' is just dog tired and not focused on what they are doing. Just glad to be back inside and thinking about a shower, meal and bed.

Oh I agree although for the most part I am talking about personnel that usually don't leave the wire but may have occasion to load their weapons.  Work-up, security tasking and the like.  I do know what you are talking about and totally agree, I remember the two NDs we had for our entire Coy for tour.  Both were at KAF while coming in after 20-30 days outside and both were at 2-3am. 
I don't get PTSD.......I'm a carrier
#8 | Rank: 788 | Cbt Exp: 492,379,788 | Msns: 7,051

Offline GAP

  • Semper Fi
  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 129,570
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,831
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2009, 21:53:56 »
What's the emphasis like during the workup.....we lived with our rifles, went through clearing actions every time we went into any building, carried it with us at all times, and if you screwed up....slept with it, but we never, ever forgot to clear the weapon upon entering a building.....the pile-on was too horrendous to ever want repeated....
REMEMBER SOME PEOPLE ARE ALIVE SIMPLY BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL TO SHOOT THEM

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline MJP

  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 19,643
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,105
Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2009, 21:58:07 »
What's the emphasis like during the workup.....we lived with our rifles, went through clearing actions every time we went into any building, carried it with us at all times, and if you screwed up....slept with it, but we never, ever forgot to clear the weapon upon entering a building.....the pile-on was too horrendous to ever want repeated....

Oh very much so.  I remember teaching a BIQ right after we came back from overseas and one of the recommendations that we made off the hop was to issue the troops with a mag of blanks and they carried their weapons loaded and readied outside the classroom.  Doing their proper clearance drill while entering.  It never got instituted for various reason but since then I know of a few courses that have done it.  It only makes sense and increases ones confidence with the weapon. 
I don't get PTSD.......I'm a carrier
#8 | Rank: 788 | Cbt Exp: 492,379,788 | Msns: 7,051