Topic: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article

[MJP]

That problem goes, at least, back to the B-H deployments. We caught guys doing gate duty with the firing pins out of their rifles.

Aye I saw the same thing in 2000 SFOR from pretty much every trade.

.

So in case that jumble of thoughts is as jumbled as I think, I'm just saying that I think that the 40% jump might be as a result of increased reporting of incidents.

Or the fact that the CF had a shooting war going on which meant a marked increase in the number of people doing weapons training.

[recceguy]

Aye I saw the same thing in 2000 SFOR from pretty much every trade.


Or the fact that the CF had a shooting war going on which meant a marked increase in the number of people doing weapons training. deploying with weapons and live ammo that they actually have to carry.

TFTFY

[MJP]

TFTFY

FTW 

[ArmyVern]

...

During a deployment in the Balkans, some non Cbt Arms soldiers were so fearful of the consequences of having a ND that they would tape over the tops of thier magazines or remove the firing pin from thier weapons.

I witnessed this first-hand when a resupply packet arrived in my camp and I saw a driver and co-driver clearing their C7s at my clearing bay.  Although they were going through the motions, neither actually looked at the breech areas (or even at the rifle for that matter) while performing the UNLOAD drill.  Well, I "loses it!" and came aboard them like a fat kid on a Smartie only to have one of them tell me that "don't worry, sir, there's no firing pin in my bolt.  I don't want to have a ND!"  So, I loses it AGAIN only to find out later on just how common this practise was!
...

So, did you charge them for having an non-operational weapon?

[ArmyVern]

...

We expect a certain level of skill and competence from SOF, CBT A, NBP, Bosns etc. who handle weapons on a regular and routine basis.  Weapons handling is an essential part of soldiering and we should also expect - and train for- a level of proficiency in weapons handiling which allows safe handling to be second nature under routine circumstances (like standing in front of a clearing bay). 

There is, in my opiniopn, a belief in the mainstream media that rank begets competence and that belief extends to weapons handling.  That's why stories like this will always be big news - because this Colonel (or BGen or CWO) is expected to be the pinnacle of competence in all the military arts, sciences and skills.  Weapons handling included.

Agreed with the mainstream's thoughts as to 'competence'. We had an ND our last week in KAF. An experienced (and obviously used to carrying weapon) officer. Clearing Bay. Charge. I also had to escort a fellow-CSM in for same (on range/C7) week one in KAF.

One of my best friends, Cpl Mike Abel was killed by an ND in Somalia and ,T., who had the ND was a small arms instructor; it happens. It should NEVER be taken lightly regardless of where one is in the training process or in their career.

[Jim Seggie]

Agreed with the mainstream's thoughts as to 'competence'. We had an ND our last week in KAF. An experienced (and obviously used to carrying weapon) officer. Clearing Bay. Charge. I also had to escort a fellow-CSM in for same (on range/C7) week one in KAF.

One of my best friends, Cpl Mike Abel was killed by an ND in Somalia and ,T., who had the ND was a small arms instructor; it happens. It should NEVER be taken lightly regardless of where one is in the training process or in their career.

I agree fully. Good post Vern.

[recceguy]

I agree fully. Good post Vern.

Jeez Jim. She just got back! Stop hitting on her from across the country!!

[ArmyVern]

Jeez Jim. She just got back! Stop hitting on her from across the country!!

Stop it!! I've been in a no-frat state for 8.5 months; I might be enjoying this! 

[Jim Seggie]

Jeez Jim. She just got back! Stop hitting on her from across the country!!

I guess I walked into that one!! 

Stop it!! I've been in a no-frat state for 8.5 months; I might be enjoying this! 

I'm going to stifle myself before I get in real trouble!

[medicineman]

That problem goes, at least, back to the B-H deployments. We caught guys doing gate duty with the firing pins out of their rifles.

I was riding shotgun with my acting- CSM on an ex in Wainwright one dreary fall day when he announced to me that there were bad guys in the areas and to look out for them.  I jacked a balnk up int the chamber of my rifle, safed it and pointed it out the window.  Sgt Gluebag looks at me and says "Please unload your weapon - if you had an ND in front of me I'd have no choice but to charge you".  My chin dropped, I looked at him and replied " Look Sarge, I've been in the service for quite awhile, have been around firearms alot of my life, I haven't had one yet and don't intend to start today.  You said there are bad guys out there, we have to play the game."  He then looked at me and said "That wasn't a request - unload your weapon".  This dweeb wouldn't even put the mag in his pistol , despite us not having any 9mm blanks, just to ensure the hammer wouldn't be able to drop on the thing, since he was worried he'd get fried over that.   That is the level of paranoia that comes from having ZERO comfort with your weapon.  My guess he was likely on of those fruit loops - and he was in Bosnia when the folks were still routinely being shot at or over.

MM

[Jim Seggie]

I was riding shotgun with my acting- CSM on an ex in Wainwright one dreary fall day when he announced to me that there were bad guys in the areas and to look out for them.  I jacked a balnk up int the chamber of my rifle, safed it and pointed it out the window.  Sgt Gluebag looks at me and says "Please unload your weapon - if you had an ND in front of me I'd have no choice but to charge you".  My chin dropped, I looked at him and replied " Look Sarge, I've been in the service for quite awhile, have been around firearms alot of my life, I haven't had one yet and don't intend to start today.  You said there are bad guys out there, we have to play the game."  He then looked at me and said "That wasn't a request - unload your weapon".  This dweeb wouldn't even put the mag in his pistol , despite us not having any 9mm blanks, just to ensure the hammer wouldn't be able to drop on the thing, since he was worried he'd get fried over that.   That is the level of paranoia that comes from having ZERO comfort with your weapon.  My guess he was likely on of those fruit loops - and he was in Bosnia when the folks were still routinely being shot at or over.

MM

We did hear that troops in Velika Kladusa weren't given bolts to the C9 or they took the firing pin out.

[Brihard]

Un. Effing. Believable. I mean, I can 'get' what I'm reading here in an abstract sense, but every part of my that takes any amount of pride in being a soldier and an NCO is just seething that crap like that has been gotten away with.

I'd like to see recruits carrying around loaded, readied weapons full of blanks constantly from as early on as can be safely done, and be damned to the ND statistics. I guess I take intimate familiarity an comfort with a weapon so for granted that I'm genuinely having trouble understanding this.

[medicineman]

We did hear that troops in Velika Kladusa weren't given bolts to the C9 or they took the firing pin out.

The following letters come to mind: R-E-T-A-R-D-E-D.  Arrange them how you like.

Fact is alot of people are not comfortable with how the weapons work and how to keep them safe.  I saw an NBP sailor on a nameless ship, while on their equivalent of QRF for leaving harbour, sitting with a C-8, mag in, playing with the safety catch.  With a pile of people in the hangar, including kids (was a family day cruise).  I had a polite chat, since I wasn't in uniform, and suggested he stop doing that.  If you're playing with the safety or any other gadgets on it, you're obviously not too comfy with the weapon.  Maybe they should be having weapons training earlier in BMQ to make the candidates more comfortable with having, holding, carrying the weapon...maybe they should be carrying them around with blanks in the chamber for the same reason...who knows.

Yes ND's happen...the idea is to cut them down, so I'm all for making people paranoid about them, but paranoid in the good way that makes people think about what and why they're doing something, since it's a vital part of the job.  I liken it to giving medications - you don't get paranoid, you just get into your comfort zone and do your double/triple checks to make sure the right person gets the right amount of the right stuff, given the right way at the right time.  It's just habit forming...kinda like what basic training is supposed to be about  .

MM

[GAP]

Maybe they should be having weapons training earlier in BMQ to make the candidates more comfortable with having, holding, carrying the weapon.

On day 3 of boot camp they gave us dummy rifles. They taught us how to hold, carry, & store them, and until we went to Pendleton and were issued real rifles, we ate, slept, and generally all round lived with those bi&^%ches! The one thing we never were, was....apprehensive  about them. They were part of us.

 

[Jim Seggie]

On day 3 of boot camp they gave us dummy rifles. They taught us how to hold, carry, & store them, and until we went to Pendleton and were issued real rifles, we ate, slept, and generally all round lived with those bi&^%ches! The one thing we never were, was....apprehensive  about them. They were part of us.

 

Back when we used the FNC1 - remember that bad boy - we in TQ3 kept them in out locker, with breech block. We knew those weapons inside and out.
We never went anywhere without them. We were what you call "intimately familiar" with them.

Now I'm not sure how they do it in TQ3 BIQ now. Are they allowed to keep weapons in the shacks or are we too risk averse for that to happen?

[dangerboy]

We keep weapons in the shacks, but collect their bolts at night.

[Jim Seggie]

We keep weapons in the shacks, but collect their bolts at night.

Question - how does WATC treat NDs?

[dangerboy]

In WATC,  they are investigated and if it is worthy a charge is laid and the pers is put on consoling for safety.

[ArmyVern]

In WATC,  they are investigated and if it is worthy a charge is laid and the pers is put on consoling for safety.

How Freudian of you.   

Where's ArmyRick's video when we need 'er??

[Jim Seggie]

In WATC,  they are investigated and if it is worthy a charge is laid and the pers is put on consoling for safety.

I'd console em too......and that video is hilarious.