Author Topic: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article  (Read 28741 times)

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Offline Towards_the_gap

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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2009, 17:21:42 »
To frostnipped elf:

Agreed about punitive measures increasing the likelihood of instances being swept under a carpet or hid. And as for not seeing someone charged with an ND, by this I mean an ND with blanks or on a range with the weapon pointed in a safe direction. I daresay should an incident have occured which you described, than no doubt the negligent discharger would have been charged.

Quite simply as you say the answer, whether achievable or not, is more training, but WITHOUT letting people become too comfortable with their weapons. The point I was trying to make about more PT is that it imbued me with a slight trepidation ever since whenever I had a weapon, to check chamber is clear, and when loaded, hands firmly away from cocking handle, and if made ready, safety on, finger off the trigger, pointed in safe direction (or at the enemy, which is in itself a safe direction!). I attribute this to the training and corrective discipline I received as a sprog.

That being said, I will come on here and freely admit the first time I ND, for I will be lucky if I never have one. Fingers crossed.....
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Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2009, 17:24:08 »
A few paragraphs.....

After the death of 3RAR's PTE Jake Kovko, with his Browning 9mm Vigilante pistol in Baghdad in Apr 06 (a very public inquiry -google this for literally thousands of entries), our tour had actually to justify its use for our pistols - or return them.

This was a typical knee jerk reaction from JTF 633 at Victory, which we were told came from useless civilian politicans back in Canberra. It caused our command unnecessary work, when they were already overtaxed with operational stuff, something I believe any politician cannot comprehend.

IMHO, Kovko was skylarking with his 'empty' pistol when it discharged in his room, fatally wounding him in the head. He was to die later that day at the US Army's 10 CSH, wrapped up in our nations's flag, with his mates surrounding him.

His loss, although tragic, was only his fault, and I realise no matter who anyone is, rules/regs must be adhered to. If you don't you or an innocent mate pays.

We had already adopted the buddy system, and within the FOB (US policy at the tme at all unload bays), all weapons were generally unloaded. Sure we all had our mags/frags all the time, and all rules/regs are only as good as we allow them to be, in that being its up to every person to maintain them, and anyone in a leadership role to police/inforce them.

As for T'sOET on our pistols, fortnightly we did load/unload, strip and assy, degrees of weapons readiness, IA's & stoppages, and safety precs. This was recorded on forms, and placed in files held at the PL level. Weekly trips to the ranges near the 14 July Bridge or FOB Prosperity were also conducted. This routine alos included carbine and Para Minimi. Drills were also conducted on MAG 58 and M242, along with daily maintenance. Again IMHO, all ranks, all trades were always up to speed on their pers wpns. Always.

To sum up, as primarily as LAV crew, the need for our pistols was justifed by our OC, and for my entire tour (3 days shy of 7 months), the only time I did not wear my pistol was when I was in the shower, or when I was asleep. It was loaded only outside the FOB, as was my carbine.

Weapons were not allowed to be cleaned in rooms, and only in designated areas. We did the best to maintain our level of readiness, with two UD/NDs on the entire tour. One Minimi and one MAG 58. One TPR and one SGT, both RAAC (black hats), not cooks or clerks. One UD is too many.

I never observed anyone on our tour 'doing a quickdraw' or acting foolish with any weapon.

I also never observed any shortfalls in personal weapons drills from any men in my platoon. As their PL SGT, it was my job to ensure all forms were completed by the CPLs on their pers and filed, and these 'rtns' were forwarded by email to the CSM for his action/info.

To sum up, we are only as good as our weakest link, IMHO anyways. Our 3RAR OC and CSM expected nothing but the best from their men, and got it overall. Our standard was set very high, and this is how it has to be.

Regards,

OWDU

EDITed for spelling
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 17:29:58 by Overwatch Downunder »
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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2009, 23:29:25 »
When then does a soldier get to practice with his weapons? I must do hundreds of draw fires at home, just to maintin an average proficiency for IPSC. Do units on tour setup "safe areas" weapon drills can be carried out outside of the normal training routine?

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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2009, 07:02:51 »
When then does a soldier get to practice with his weapons? I must do hundreds of draw fires at home, just to maintin an average proficiency for IPSC. Do units on tour setup "safe areas" weapon drills can be carried out outside of the normal training routine?

We went to the ranges quite often when I was on tour.  At the very least, if a soldier need to practice, perhaps they could approach their CoC and have it done (time permitting) in a safe manner.
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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2009, 10:36:58 »
So here's a question:  if someone has an ND with a weapon their CoC did not ensure they were familiar with - where all does the fault lie?  The soldier who had the ND?  The supervisors who didn't ensure he was familiar with it?  The training system that didn't deliver the needed training?

And one which a addressed in my Regiment last Fall.  An RMS Clerk had an ND on the range during an "unload - prepare for inspection" on the firing point.  Investigation revealed said clerk had not handled the weapon since last PWT in 2007, had never done a refresher session in 2008 and the "handling test" was done as a group.  Ergo, the following points came to light:

- NCO conducting the handling test could not honestly say that said clerk had passed;
- OIC practise had not confirmed with the OIC handling test that said clerk was "good to go";
- Said clerk had voiced the opinion that she needed more practise;
- This opinion was ignored ("you'll be alright, it's only PWT1")

The C of C for the Pl/Coy tasked with the range insisted, almost demanded, that this clerk (from BHQ) be charged "as an example".  I refused.  The C of C had not done it's due diligence in preparing said clerk for the practise.
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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2009, 10:42:09 »
The C of C for the Pl/Coy tasked with the range insisted, almost demanded, that this clerk (from BHQ) be charged "as an example".  I refused.  The C of C had not done it's due diligence in preparing said clerk for the practise.

Here's where you and I differ:  Charges should have resulted.  Those who did not do their job to ensure the soldier was ready failed in military duties.  Or is that not quite the outcome the Pl was lookign for?
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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2009, 10:43:58 »
And one which a addressed in my Regiment last Fall.  An RMS Clerk had an ND on the range during an "unload - prepare for inspection" on the firing point.  Investigation revealed said clerk had not handled the weapon since last PWT in 2007, had never done a refresher session in 2008 and the "handling test" was done as a group.  Ergo, the following points came to light:

- NCO conducting the handling test could not honestly say that said clerk had passed;
- OIC practise had not confirmed with the OIC handling test that said clerk was "good to go";
- Said clerk had voiced the opinion that she needed more practise;
- This opinion was ignored ("you'll be alright, it's only PWT1")

The C of C for the Pl/Coy tasked with the range insisted, almost demanded, that this clerk (from BHQ) be charged "as an example".  I refused.  The C of C had not done it's due diligence in preparing said clerk for the practise.

I would agree with this course of action. I don't know which regiment you are in, but if we see a troop that has difficulties, we sort them out quickly. We will either pull them off the range and give them more training, or have one of the safety staff supervise them a bit more diligently.
As for charging someone, the NCO that conducted the handling test should be charged as well as OIC of the practice.
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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2009, 12:12:17 »
Here's where you and I differ:  Charges should have resulted.  Those who did not do their job to ensure the soldier was ready failed in military duties.

As for charging someone, the NCO that conducted the handling test should be charged as well as OIC of the practice.


My comments were regarding the firer only.  Other actions sorted out the C of C.

Or is that not quite the outcome the Pl was looking for?
Things did not go at all as the Pl/Coy expected.  Being held accountable for someone else's ND was not their desired outcome.

I don't know which regiment you are in, but if we see a troop that has difficulties, we sort them out quickly. We will either pull them off the range and give them more training, or have one of the safety staff supervise them a bit more diligently.

Luckily, the only difficulty this soldier experiended was during the "unload".  There was no apparent need for sorting her out until that point.



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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2009, 18:19:56 »
When then does a soldier get to practice with his weapons? I must do hundreds of draw fires at home, just to maintin an average proficiency for IPSC. Do units on tour setup "safe areas" weapon drills can be carried out outside of the normal training routine?

During the latter part of my tour during Nov 08, the KAF 25m range was closed due to "high lead levels in the butts".  So pers employed inside the wire but departing for tasks and new arrivals could not zero their weapons.  Many pers were walking around on KAF had not fired their weapons since pre-deployment training.  Many who came in before Oct 08 were allowed to fire 5 rounds from C7 and 9mm.

A summary investigation into a range practice that results in a ND will normally disclose several levels of poor drills by participants and conducting staff. Charging someone may be the answer, however, corrective action at all levels will minimize NDs on future range practices.

 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 18:24:46 by Frostnipped Elf »
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Offline Jim Seggie

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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #59 on: June 30, 2009, 18:25:40 »
During the latter part of my tour during Nov 08, the KAF 25m range was closed due to "high lead levels in the butts".  So pers employed inside the wire but departing for tasks and new arrivals could not zero their weapons.  Many pers were walking around on KAF had not fired their weapons since pre-deployment training.  Many who came in before Oct 08 were allowed to fire 5 rounds from C7 and 9mm.

 
One question: Who (which country) owns the 25 m range? I've never been to KAF.

IF it is a Canadian owned range, then sort it out. What's the problem? We are in theatre of operations....
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Offline meni0n

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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #60 on: June 30, 2009, 21:08:37 »
At KAF range 06, zeroing weapons. It went something like this " Target to your front, 25m, on your own time *BANG*..... " It was considered an ND and I believe the individual had to pay for it. Now, does anyone remember how much did the 105mm ND at MSG cost?

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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #61 on: June 30, 2009, 21:23:00 »
One question: Who (which country) owns the 25 m range? I've never been to KAF.

Like most things in KAF, it is a multinational and multi-organizational responsibility.
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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #62 on: July 10, 2009, 11:58:10 »
- COMKAF owns the range.  The one in question (above) no longer exists.  The new one will be COMKAF as well.  Sign for all of the range kit at the TLS.
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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2009, 13:31:21 »
Is there a range now for new arrivals to zero or how are weapons zeroed prior to departing the wire?
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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2010, 07:57:09 »
Almost one year to the day I posted pretty much the "same" [see first post] article........I guess recycling news is good for the environment, saves all that pesky looking for new stuff.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/100219/canada/canada_novascotia_ns_gun_discharge_military_drapeau
Military targets weapons discharges
Fri Feb 19, 4:11 AM

Canada's military is having a problem with the negligent discharge of weapons, with more than 600 reported incidents over the past two years.
Documents from 2008-09 list more than 400 incidences of negligent weapon discharges. So far in this recording year, there have been 229 such incidents.

CBC News obtained the documents using an access to information request.
The vast majority of negligent discharges happened during training in Canada, according to the documents.

The problem was first brought to light by the Office of the Judge Advocate General (JAG) of Canadian Forces and the military claims to be taking it very seriously, fining some soldiers and putting others in detention.
Some of the charges involve little more than shooting a weapon on a firing range before receiving the final OK to do so.

The few serious charges involving injuries or worse have resulted in court marshals.
Despite this, retired colonel Michel Drapeau said these numbers are disturbing.
"This is very, very, very, serious. Having the potential to create casualties among soldiers, and it's something that is preventable, when you have 400 in a given year, there is something out of kilter here and this must be the highest ratio that I know of," Drapeau said.

Bob Bergen, a fellow at the Centre for Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary and a former journalist who covered the Canadian Armed Forces, said the military does what it can to prevent accidental firing of weapons.

"They try to do everything they can to mitigate these and reduce the risk, but let's face it, they have the machines of war," Bergen said.
"The purpose of these machines is to kill people. Yes, they want killers, but what they don't want is people dying accidentally."

There have been several extreme cases of negligent discharge of weapons. Cpl. Kevin Megeney, of Truro, N.S., was shot to death by his comrade Matthew Wilcox, of Glace Bay, N.S., while the two served in Afghanistan on March 6, 2007.

They were involved in a game of quick draw. Wilcox was court marshalled and sent to prison for four years.
During the Wilcox trial, videos surfaced showing a soldier pointing a pistol at another soldier's head and pulling the trigger. There were no bullets in the gun.

Only a small number of soldiers have been hurt by the accidental firing of guns. But the military says it is taking the problem seriously.
The last published report from the Judge Advocate General blames the problem on members who are new to the forces.

Several retired military officers also blame the increase of negligent discharge of weapons on inexperienced soldiers. But others said that due to Canada's involvement in the war in Afghanistan, there is more use of guns, which leads to the possibility of more accidents.

But regardless of the reasons, the Judge Advocate General says ultimately, the proper handling of weapons remains a leadership and training responsibility.
One retired officer who led Canadian troops in Bosnia said in his six-month command of 1,700 soldiers, there were only a couple of negligent discharges.
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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2010, 08:52:27 »
I wonder what the Centre of Excellence for small arms has to say about this?

Just guessing, but I would offer that most of those "NDs" are with blank ammunition.  What do I induce from this?
1.  The CF understands the importance of safe weapons handling.  So much so, that it treats the negligent discharge of a blank round as seriously as those of a live round.  So, as people adapt to the rules of handling ammunition (eg: in the training system), they will make mistakes.  If that mistake is in drill, they get jacked up.  If they fire when they aren't supposed to, we use negative reinforcement, and pain (financial) to lessen the odds of them doing that again.
I suppose to lessen the numbers (eg: the statistics), the only other option to reduce the number of Summary Trials is to stop charging people for NDs.  ::)

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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2010, 09:15:13 »
So here's a question:  if someone has an ND with a weapon their CoC did not ensure they were familiar with - where all does the fault lie?  The soldier who had the ND?  The supervisors who didn't ensure he was familiar with it?  The training system that didn't deliver the needed training?

 There was a court martial in 2004 (I think that was the year, I'd have to look for it) but it involved an ND at Camp Julian and a Browning 9mm. The captain charged argued that it had been 10 years since he had handled or received training in his sidearm, had no confidence in his ability to use the weapon and had actually tried to turn it in to his COC in theatre but was refused. He was a left-hand shot also, and that figured in somehow. I'm sure one of you folks can dig up the judgement because it's posted, but he was found entirely guilty of the ND.

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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2010, 09:20:22 »
One retired officer who led Canadian troops in Bosnia said in his six-month command of 1,700 soldiers, there were only a couple of negligent discharges.


Gee, a peacekeeping mission, with much less ammunition and less training in advance with blank and live ammo.  You think there would be fewer incidents, perhaps?

40below:  An individual is responsible for their actions.  But their CoC is responsible to ensure their subordinates are properly trained.  If, as is alleged, this individual had not handled a pistol for 10 years, and was not provided with refresher training or validation prior to deployment then those above him should also face administrative or disciplinary action - they failed in their duty to prepare their subordinates.  As I recall, there were two instances (one witness to the second ND (through the door of a vehicle) even quoted him as saying "Oh no, not again!").

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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2010, 09:54:05 »


Gee, a peacekeeping mission, with much less ammunition and less training in advance with blank and live ammo.  You think there would be fewer incidents, perhaps?

40below:  An individual is responsible for their actions.  But their CoC is responsible to ensure their subordinates are properly trained.  If, as is alleged, this individual had not handled a pistol for 10 years, and was not provided with refresher training or validation prior to deployment then those above him should also face administrative or disciplinary action - they failed in their duty to prepare their subordinates.  As I recall, there were two instances (one witness to the second ND (through the door of a vehicle) even quoted him as saying "Oh no, not again!").

Found a link to the judgement. Turns out not that many majors get court-martialled in any given year:

http://www.jmc-cmj.forces.gc.ca/dec/2004/rompre-mg-eng.asp

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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2010, 10:13:34 »


Gee, a peacekeeping mission, with much less ammunition and less training in advance with blank and live ammo.  You think there would be fewer incidents, perhaps?

I'm not sure I get your point.  The amount of ammo carried is irrelevant.  In Sarajevo, everyone was well and truly bombed up, as we were in Vukovar.  One weapon with one magazine with one round in it will create an ND no less than one weapon, 10 mags, 300 rounds.  The commonality is 1 soldier behind the controls.
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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2010, 10:43:39 »


Gee, a peacekeeping mission, with much less ammunition and less training in advance with blank and live ammo.  You think there would be fewer incidents, perhaps?

No - got nothing to do with load outs, but everything to do with training, reinforcement of that training and attitude.  When I deployed in 94, we did a whole pile of live and blank training and still people had ND's here, in the States and in theatre.  Hell, our first day going to work on base with blanks, someone had an ND - and we didn't even have to have a round in the chamber at that point.  It comes down to attitude - the fact you have to remain switched on until the weapon system is "turned off" and made safe no matter what your physical or mental state is at that point in time.  Almost was guilty myself once for the same reason - body was switched on but brain wasn't - luckily for those around me I woke the (add your own expletive) up before I shot someone. 

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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2010, 12:03:01 »
Now, does anyone remember how much did the 105mm ND at MSG cost?

I know it cost me a few grey hairs!

Over in C/S 3 we thought we were being mortared.

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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2010, 23:14:31 »
THAT does not surprise me. I've seen examples of people who were to never command troops again....be posted to greater leadership roles....and they were still right out of it.
 :rage:

Don't I know it...I worked for a certain Gork "The Dork" in C Coy in 93.  I am sure you know him Middle Aged Silverback.

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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2010, 23:29:30 »
Don't I know it...I worked for a certain Gork "The Dork" in C Coy in 93.  I am sure you know him Middle Aged Silverback.

I sure do know him. Good soldier skills, quite a dysfunctional individual. He was released a few years later....
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Re: Accidental Discharge of Weapons Up 40% in Two Years- Article
« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2010, 02:32:05 »
There was a court martial in 2004 (I think that was the year, I'd have to look for it) but it involved an ND at Camp Julian and a Browning 9mm. The captain charged argued that it had been 10 years since he had handled or received training in his sidearm, had no confidence in his ability to use the weapon and had actually tried to turn it in to his COC in theatre but was refused. He was a left-hand shot also, and that figured in somehow. I'm sure one of you folks can dig up the judgement because it's posted, but he was found entirely guilty of the ND.

Worst excuse ever!  It pains me that there are educated people in the military who must have demonstrated some level of responsibility go to such great lengths to show themselves to be total idiots.  Surprise! you're going to war and you might get a weapon.  Assuming he is literate, every unit has a PAM library and the 9MM Service Pistol is not a rare publication.  At anytime at Julian the Captain could have walked up to pretty much any infantry NCO and asked to be refreshed on handling drills.  I'm sure there would have been one camp security duty.  Personally, it takes me at least 30 minutes to write a witness statement.  I would much rather take that time and run anyone through their weapons drills.

It happens sometimes for left handed firers to experience their loaded magazines to magically leap out of their mag pouches into the mag housing, then mysteriously ready and fire.  To prevent this, remove hand from the pistol grip and put the weapon on safe.