Author Topic: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS  (Read 45821 times)

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Offline ObedientiaZelum

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Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2009, 00:30:00 »

I am sorry, but I don't by his rather 'lame' excuse for shooting a mate. I am sure there is more to this.

OWDU

Yup. Pathetic. Talk about dishonouring the dead.
He whirled around and shot because he heard a weapon being cocked? Inside the wire at their tent lines?
His lawyer should have told him how stupid that sounds. After reading that lame excuse I have no sympathy for Cpl Wilcox.
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Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2009, 00:40:32 »
It's genius.  He's building the groundwork for a stress/mental breakdown defence.  Pathetic, but genius.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2009, 10:46:31 »
I thought this POS was a low-life for having a loaded wpn where he shouldn't have in the first place which ended up with him killing someone.

But this is truly the bottom of the barrel.  Wilcox you aren't worth the crap I flushed down the toilet this morning.

I can't find the words to describe how I feel knowing he is playing the "feared for my life" card. 

An embarassment to the CF, the Army, the Army Reserves, 36 Brigade and 2 NSH. 

RIP Cpl Megeney.   :cdn:
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Offline ENGINEERS WIFE

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2009, 13:39:34 »
Okay, being a civvie, not knowing anything about guns, Cpl Wilcox story seems like a big pile of poo.

It doesn't make sense.

If everytime he heard a weapon being cocked and "he just reacted" wouldn't that mean a lot of other soldiers being shot?  I am assuming this is not his first time hearing that. 

And doesn't the military train you to look down the gun and see who's holding it?

Seems to me like he f#*cked up royally and instead of just saying sorry, I f#*cked up, and taking the consequences he's trying to justify shooting his friend.

This must be very hard for Cpl. Kevin Megeney family, to lose their son and then to have to go through this.  It's a shame.
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Offline Jammer

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2009, 13:56:57 »
RUBBISH!!!!
F**&ing coward!
I've seen so much of this **** from reservists that aren't properly trained or held to account when they are called out.
What could possibly go wrong?

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2009, 14:09:01 »
Folks, he is just doing what happens thousands and thousands of times everyday in every courtroom in the country.

Spend a day in court some time and your day will be torn between outright giggling, wanting to throw up, and/or just wanting to rip heads off.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2009, 14:18:36 »
RUBBISH!!!!
F**&ing coward!

Agreed!

Quote
I've seen so much of this **** from reservists that aren't properly trained or held to account when they are called out.

Jammer, let's not paint the entire PRes because of Cpl Wilcox.  Having served in sub-units and the HQ of 36 CBG, I can say MOST of its soldiers aren't of the sort he is.  I've never seen someone f**k up and then point the blame at someone else to this extent before.  That he is blaming the man he killed for his own grave mistake sorta kicks at something inside me.  It took me awhile to figure it out today, but I've come to realize he is dishonouring "loyalty" in a way I've never seen before.

I just think we shouldn't use this as a stepping stone against the PRes as a whole, the Army, or the CF.  This is about Cpl Wilcox, his lack of spine and loyalty and honour.
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Offline X-mo-1979

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2009, 14:22:57 »
I'll be honest I don't know rules and regulations like some,but discussing a incident involved in a current military court don't seem right to me.Anyone?


Offline 0tto Destruct

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2009, 14:30:58 »
That's a pretty big brush you're using to tar reservists with, Jammer. I think any one of us know of an example where a CF member did something negligent with a weapon, be it a regular force member or reservist. In this case, Cpl. Megeney and his family paid an extremely high price for it. I won't comment too much on Cpl. Wilcox as the matter is still before the court, but I do think he may have committed to something that he's going to have to take to bed with him for the rest of his life. I hope he's prepared for the consequences of that.

As for being held to account for one's own actions, again, poor judgment is not the sole province of the reserve force. Duty, Honor, Integrity, and Discipline are something ALL CF members should instill in themselves and others. Again, we've all seen examples where a few (from either component) have forgotten that. Let's not bring components into this. Its ugly, and that in today's environment where up to 20% of rotations (according to a 2008 Ombudsman's report) are reservists who serve in all areas of the theatre with distinction, it's patently untrue.

If anything, I hope we can keep this as a reminder of just how important weapons safety is. If remembering what happened to Kevin prevents one person from doing something negligent with a weapon, then there is (as small as it may be) a silver lining to this tragedy.

RIP, my friend, and I hope your family finds peace in all this as well.
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Offline Roy Harding

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2009, 14:32:07 »
I'll be honest I don't know rules and regulations like some,but discussing a incident involved in a current military court don't seem right to me.Anyone?

It's a discussion based on a public process, reported in a public forum (the news media).  There is no OPSEC/PERSEC issue here (and let's KEEP it that way).

If you don't feel comfortable joining the discussion (I feel the same way) - don't.


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Edited to add remarking about keeping PERSEC/OPSEC issues out of it.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 14:35:24 by Roy Harding »
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Offline Jammer

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2009, 14:32:46 »
Ack,
...but it is an open forum and although we are not privy to the inner sanctum of this trial we should open this up for healthy debate.
I'm not tarring all reservists with the same brush, but lets be honest the D and S Platoon on KAF was pretty much a reservist run CoC. I have seen time and time again 18-19 and 20 yr olds who just don't have the maturity that their reg force peers have.
Not to say that regs don't have discipline probs by any stretch, but that have more consistant supervision and tighter control by more experienced leaders, not summer PLQ wunderkinds.
What could possibly go wrong?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2009, 14:44:05 »
Well, I don't know the Jnr NCOs from the platoon in question, but I do know the PL WO.  Over 20 years in, not his first tour, he isn't one to dick around, let people dick around or encourage people to dick around.  I can't comment on the type/quality of NCOs he had under him.

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Offline 0tto Destruct

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2009, 14:53:47 »
If I recall correctly, the platoon responsible for convoy escorts for the TF 1-07 task force was also all reserve (at the Platoon level down, as with the guard platoon), and they performed professionally and well during our deployment...particularly when compared to other nations operating in our area, including the US, UK, and Portugese.

Further, as far as I know, except for one (granted) highly unfortunate incident, the guard platoon in KAF for that tour also did extremely well throughout the deployment. They had a very stressful job, and despite the loss of Cpl. Megeney and the aftermath, they carried on with professionalism and pride.

Also, there were other "all reserve" elements on deployments (CIMIC and PSYOPS teams) that are all reservists, and they don't seem to have any problems, despite being out in the field constantly, in small groups, also under trying circumstances. "Summer PLQ wunderkinds" or not, we do a hell of a lot of training before deployments, and perform a dangerous job under trying circumstances right along our regular force comrades.

Again, the PRes bashing thing is old news. Individuals screw up, from either side of the fence, but that happens everywhere.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 15:06:55 by 0tto Destruct »
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2009, 14:59:42 »
I have seen time and time again 18-19 and 20 yr olds who just don't have the maturity that their reg force peers have.

Are you ******** me?  How are 19 year old Regular Privates any more mature than 19 year old Reserve Privates?

This is not a reserve vs regular force issue so drop it.  This is an issue that the court is sorting out right now - I have my opinions on this, but I'll save it until the Court Martial issues its verdict as right now, this fellow is still innocent.
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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2009, 15:10:41 »
My two cents,

Before we go condemning the accused, and praising the dead troop, just remember this;

Unless the Wolcox intentionally Shot Megeney, the only other concept is what the Prosecution has put forward; the two were playing quick draw.  If that is the case, both would be at fault.

As for Jammer,  I will let Infanteer's words reprepresent mine, as I do not feel like swearing right now....

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Offline hamiltongs

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2009, 15:13:39 »
Seems to me like he f#*cked up royally and instead of just saying sorry, I f#*cked up, and taking the consequences he's trying to justify shooting his friend.
There's a difference between court process and how we do things in the CF. In a traditional CoC situation, we're taught to assume complete responsibility for our actions and trust in our CoC to understand things in their context and dole out an appropriate punishment if warranted.

In a court case, by contrast, there's a prosecutor employed for the sole purpose of trying to get you imprisoned for as long as possible; if you just "mea culpa" without making any kind of further explanation, they'll lock you up and throw away the key because you didn't provide a defence of yourself. The "mercy of the court" only works if the court understands why you did what you did.

Wilcox isn't trying to get himself off by saying he shot his mate the way he did - he's saying that what he did was accidental (manslaughter) rather than intentional or criminally negligent (first or second degree murder). Obviously no one (least of all Wilcox himself, I suspect) is going to say it's okay that he shot his buddy, but there's no need to excoriate him for providing a legal defence. He's going to see time either way.

Offline Jammer

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2009, 15:20:16 »
Infanteer,
Read my post again.
What could possibly go wrong?

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2009, 15:41:42 »

I've seen so much of this **** from reservists that aren't properly trained or held to account when they are called out.

This post is plain wrong!

I've seen plenty of regs and militia that are just as big as idiots. People are people.

I won't say anymore.

OWDU

EDITed for clarity, not changing the flavour of this post.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 15:51:37 by Overwatch Downunder »
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Offline WB

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2009, 15:45:00 »
Quote
Infanteer,
Read my post again.

I read it again, and I still think you're off.

This issue has nothing to do with Wilcox being a reservist.  It's about the discipline expected of soldiers. By the time a soldier is deployed, there is nothing to distinguish a reg force guy from a reservist.

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2009, 16:08:16 »
Ack,
...but it is an open forum and although we are not privy to the inner sanctum of this trial we should open this up for healthy debate.
I'm not tarring all reservists with the same brush,...not summer PLQ wunderkinds.

I would truly be surprised if the court accepted that defence.  As for the above it's rubbish too.  The two D&S' I saw ran a very tight ship, took their roll seriously and executed their missions with professionalism and as a result brought us pretty much everything we needed.  The NCO's certainly were not shy about sorting discipline problems.  Possibly some extra man management was required but IMO it is just as likely a result of being in KAF as it would be a result of a soldier's relative age or component.

The PRes have the same QR&O's as the RegF and last I checked we're on the same side. 

Offline ObedientiaZelum

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2009, 10:23:13 »
I've seen so much of this **** from reservists that aren't properly trained or held to account when they are called out.

Ack,
...but it is an open forum and although we are not privy to the inner sanctum of this trial we should open this up for healthy debate.
I'm not tarring all reservists with the same brush, but lets be honest the D and S Platoon on KAF was pretty much a reservist run CoC. I have seen time and time again 18-19 and 20 yr olds who just don't have the maturity that their reg force peers have.
Not to say that regs don't have discipline probs by any stretch, but that have more consistant supervision and tighter control by more experienced leaders, not summer PLQ wunderkinds.

I'm going to take a another crack at the point I was trying to make sans having a nerve hit.
Jammer I really respect your service record and you've obviously must have worked with reservists a lot in your career but I still can't even come close to agreeing with your comments.

Your first comment about reservists not being properly trained. If that were the case, who is responsible for training reservists going overseas, their home unit or the regular force?  Work up training is now in excess (stupidly) of a year. A year isn't long enough for regular force types to bring their reserve counterparts up to speed?

Arguing the maturity level of 20 year old privates doesn't jive. There is no difference between them.
I've been overseas to Afghanistan with a full reservist platoon twice including a few months D&S.

At the platoon level at least half of our platoon were university and college educated, among them professionals such as police officers, firemen, paramedics electricians teachers, even a doctor.  More than half the troops being PLQ qualified.
One platoon walked away with 2 medals of bravery a meritorious service medal and bla bla BBQs and meetings with generals to the flavor of 'wow how are you doing so well being reservists?!' I'm told we had the most contacts out of any C/S including battlegroup which at the very least means we weren't picking our nose feeling balls on gate the whole time.

To address the PLQ summerkids comment. Running concurrently with my PLQ course was a regular force course.  On the weekends they would dress up in stealth suits with masks on and run through out tent lines flipping cots and trashing crap. The whole summer we had to lock everything we had in our cars or in a sea can so it wouldn't get ruined or stolen on weekend leave. They would drive by our course and shout out go home ******* tunes rev the crap out of their go fast cars and peel away. Future leaders indeed.

We've all seen troops doing stupid things when their bored overseas. It's not that we're not professional, it happens. You're right in that it's a leadership responsibility to combat it, and it does get combated. My (reserve) platoon WO was terrifying. You step out of line a little and you might as well burn a Canadian flag on July 1st on parliament hill, this guy didn't piss around with discipline.

How would you stop to troops from playing quick draw (or whatever) while off duty in their own tent? Tricky.

It's a challenge being based in KAF when it comes to finding training and stuff to keep troops busy. For example, we were told we weren't even allowed to use the ranges there for gunfighter training. Only units coming in and special forces were allowed on the range.
You go to the medics or rad ops and ask for a couple of soldiers for a day or two to give your platoon some extra training and see the faces they make.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 10:27:41 by Flawed Design »
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Offline Jammer

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2009, 10:37:19 »
You go to the medics or rad ops and ask for a couple of soldiers for a day or two to give your platoon some extra training and see the faces they make.


Really???
Haven't seen it yet that when a unit has requested refresher trg that they were turned down...speaking as a Rad Op.

I stand by my opinion based on my experience
What could possibly go wrong?

Offline recceguy

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2009, 12:26:49 »
Ack,
...but it is an open forum and although we are not privy to the inner sanctum of this trial we should open this up for healthy debate.
I'm not tarring all reservists with the same brush, but lets be honest the D and S Platoon on KAF was pretty much a reservist run CoC. I have seen time and time again 18-19 and 20 yr olds who just don't have the maturity that their reg force peers have.
Not to say that regs don't have discipline probs by any stretch, but that have more consistant supervision and tighter control by more experienced leaders, not summer PLQ wunderkinds.

Another shot like that gets you on the warning ladder. Both sides have their fuckups. Let it go, and don't try bring it up again.

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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2009, 12:36:57 »
My 2 Cents, I get trying to not go to jail.  ( dont always agree with it but I get it) However his story based on my experience is pure and utter B.S. Full stop.  There is no way that jives with where he was and the normal routine he should of been following WRT Wpns handling and states.  I do not know if they were playing a "game" nor do I care,  This guy's story does not wash with me, and by his Trg it is the wrong reaction for the time and place even if the events had of went that way.

As for beating on the Reserves, that was uncalled for.  A idiot is an idiot regardless of his reg or reserve designation.  I have worked with Reg and Reserve who were Junk.  I have worked with others who know thier jobs cold, and can perform in any situation.  There may be a discrepancy in Trg but that has been improved.  There are gaps though and for those gaps I will show you Reg force personnel who can be just as bad for what ever reason. 

Or do you want to blame Solmolia on a reservist ( and yes we had them there as well.) 

There are differances with the Reg and Reserves, they are NOT as pronounced as they use to be.  And frankly it falls on to the Reg Force that any reservist deploying or not is as highly trained as the CF can make them.
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Re: Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2009, 12:51:01 »
Next person that brings up the Reg vs Res thing, for, against, whatever, goes straight to C&P. It's not what this thread is about, nor should it ever be.

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