Topic: Abuse of Authority within a Relationship

[InkerThinker]

Hello, i'm a first time writer, long time reader...and first time p/o....

& i've been searching (on the internet) and on army.ca for the answer to my question... which is best used in an example...

can someone be charged with abuse of authority if the higher ranking person (i.e. WO) comes to a house of a military spouse who is of a lesser (rank) (i.e. pte) wants to carry on a sexual relationship. even if the spouse agrees to it  (the WO came to that person's house because he knew the Pte's schedule and knew that he would not be at home with his spouse which would be when the relationship occurd)

*the ranks are incorrect but are used as this example

i guess what i'm asking and what i want clarified is what is the definition of abuse of authority  (does it have to be their direct boss or is it rank related, does it have to be on base or can it take place off base...)

[corp_express]

That's terrible.
Use you chain of command and cirumvent the individual in question, notify his superiors of the problem in question. Obviously you should no longer be working together anymore. I think any officer has the authority to lay a charge.

[Eye In The Sky]

That's terrible.
Use you chain of command and cirumvent the individual in question, notify his superiors of the problem in question. Obviously you should no longer be working together anymore. Any officer has the authority to lay a charge.

Whoa whoa whoa! 

To start, not all Officers have the authority to lay a charge.  COs set out who can lay a charge, who are Delegated Officers/Presiding Officers, whatever the term is now, etc in ROs, etc.  QR & O Vol II, Chap 107, Art 107.02 refers:

http://admfincs.mil.ca/qr_o/vol2/ch107_e.asp#107.02  DIN Link

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-02/chapter-chapitre-107-eng.asp#cha-107-02   InterNet link

Secondly, what is the Service Offense you are so confident is being committed here?  Abuse of Authority?  I just checked and in QR & O, Vol II, Chapter 103, I don't see that listed as a Service Offense.

http://admfincs.mil.ca/qr_o/vol2/tofc103_e.asp  DIN link

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-02/tc-tm-103-eng.asp InterNet link

I am no expert in this area, but I think your advice is out to lunch.

Aside from this hypothetically involving a WO being friendly with a Pte's wife, the OP said *even if the spouse agrees to it*.

Take some time to familiarize yourself with QR & O Vol II and *Stay in your lanes* seems to be the best advice I can give you.

[Greymatters]

This is one of those issues that the CF doesnt like to get involved in.  If this is actually going on, and you want to act like the adult the CF expects you to be, these types of issues should be dealt with between the two (or three) of you rather than dragging in the whole command structure.

That said, with the sparse information offered, you really cant expect to get good advice on your situation, but trying to press charges is not your first option.  The first issue you need to sort out is your home life.  If this an 'unwanted' visit to the home environment, then you report it to the appropriate law enforcement and seek legal advice.  If this is a 'wanted' visit, then you should be discussing the issue with the spouse and finding out what issues need to be dealt with there... 

[InkerThinker]

Aside from this hypothetically involving a WO being friendly with a Pte's wife, the OP said *even if the spouse agrees to it*.

Take some time to familiarize yourself with QR & O Vol II and *Stay in your lanes* seems to be the best advice I can give you.

eye in the sky: this example is based on a true event, i don't want to say too much due to persec which is why i changed the ranks around...

so from what you are saying, is that there is nothing i can do (because it's not a Service Offense), and from the military side there's nothing wrong?

greymatters: my first option has been dealt with (the b**** is gone) i did not want the person to come to my house in the first place and if i was present i'd obviously would of stopped it

[Eye In The Sky]

eye in the sky: this example is based on a true event, i don't want to say too much due to persec which is why i changed the ranks around...

so from what you are saying, is that there is nothing i can do (because it's not a Service Offense), and from the military side there's nothing wrong?

My trg and knowledge in the area is far to limited to offer you advice on what you should do.  From my time and experience, my first thought is...have you considered talking to a Padre about it?  Doesn't involve the CoC, no accusations against a superior, etc.  Other than that advice militarily speaking, anything else I say is out of my lane.  I'd have to leave that advice to those of higher rank, experience and knowledge than me.

Its a crappy situation, but firing from the hip now might come back to haunt you later.  Again, my first thought was a Padre.  In the past few years, I've had a pretty crappy situation fall on me, and the BEST thing I did was talk to the Padre before deciding my course of action.  The Padre engaged my CoC at the highest level and THAT made a huge difference in itself.

And...I have to add, good on you for maintaining your self discipline and not taking matters into your own hands in a way that would be bad for your career.   

[PMedMoe]

The only place I can see any abuse of authority, is the fact that he used his knowledge of your schedule to time his visit to the spouse.  Other than that, not much can be done through the military.

[Kat Stevens]

It's not abuse of authority, insider trading maybe.   *** hole crap-birds like this exist at all rank levels.

[InkerThinker]

...have you considered talking to a Padre about it?

Wow, I never would of thought about a Padre (not being very religious myself)

and as for the "self discipline" i have thought a lot about just handling this 'man to man' but so many people have told me that there are better ways... so i've listened to them (good advice i hope)

*** hole crap-birds like this exist at all rank levels.

He's more of a "D**** Bag" in my eyes, he thinks of himself as quite the gigalo just makes me want to slap that smirk right off his stupid face... (again self discipline comes into effect)

Eye in the Sky: Is there a number or something I can use to find out the nearest padre? Closest Base would be Borden...

[Kat Stevens]

DON'T GET PHYSICAL WITH THIS GUY!  From experience, you will never win if you crap kick someone with more rank than you, regardless of the reason. Even if you are found to be in the right, he will have friends with long reach. One of the perks of rank, I'm afraid.

[FormerHorseGuard]

If you want to contact the padre, i would call his or her office and make an appointment.  Do you work on or off base?
I am sure the padre would come see you and your spouse and discuss the opitions and offer some sort of official help.
MY  former Padre called it the purple net, ( colour of the background of the cap babdge) they  have no power in the chain of command but have direct access to the CO and can discuss things at the highest levels avoiding  charges or face to face contact with the problem person. if you need some more help just call the padres office
 in Borden at  705-423-2318

[ArmyRick]

I reccomend you seek advise from an HA or talk to a padre. I know alot of COs and RSMs that will "get involved" and put a stop to horse **** behaviour like that!

[Teflon]

I think another side of the issue is maybe the member needs to speak to his wife as well. If this is a case of  "even if the spouse agrees to it" it seems to me there are bigger problems in the marital relationship then what rank the spouse decides to sleep around with.  And this is an area that a Padre / Social Worker / Marriage Councillor or Divorce Lawyer would be of far more assistance with.

[beach_bum]

I think another side of the issue is maybe the member needs to speak to his wife as well. If this is a case of  "even if the spouse agrees to it" it seems to me there are bigger problems in the marital relationship then what rank the spouse decides to sleep around with.  And this is an area that a Padre / Social Worker / Marriage Councillor or Divorce Lawyer would be of far more assistance with.

I have to agree with this one.  Whether or not you liked this person coming to your house, obviously your spouse welcomed him.  Other than the obvious "relations" occuring there is no legal wrong doing here.  I don't see how it involves the military at all.

[Staff Weenie]

The CF does not have any explicit legal involvement in infidelity that I know of - the Yanks do, and have regularly prosecuted folks for exactly this situation (I read about a Col from Strat Bomber Comd who was taken out for an extra-marital affair with a Pte)..

The issue of consent is the key here - the actions between the 'WO' and the 'wife', both consenting adults, are probably not going to be relevant. If said WO was to at all make any comments to you at work, or treat you in a fashion that differs in the slightest from all the other subordinates, then it becomes an issue for the CF.

I would also wonder if a NDA Art 129 could be used, in that such conduct is clearly prejudicial to the maintenance of good order and discipline within a unit. Somehow, I doubt that the rest of the unit is unaware, so it has probably been discussed, and impacts on how the WO is perceived, and perhaps even obeyed. I had to deal with a 'wife-swapping' free sex group in a unit, and had a 2Lt tell me that what happens off base is his business. The advice I rec from legal was that once troops within the unit are aware of it (they were), and it begins to impact upon order, discipline and even morale (they all hated him), it becomes a CF issue to deal with.

Let the system deal with it properly, but for your own sake, see the Padre or other resource.

[Eye In The Sky]

Closest Base would be Borden...

This line leads me to ask this question...are you in the Res Frce?

This could change thinks, if *the WO* is Res Frce, as the CSD is pretty specific about when a Reservist is subject to the CSD.

Not that it changes how much of a fool he is.  For the record, if I were in your position, his face would be in SERIOUS need of surgery, and I'd happily be incarcerated.  I don't have much "self discipline" when it comes to Mrs EITS and dickheads.

[Kat Stevens]

It takes an order of God, signed off by the Easter Bunny to charge a WO, and for a 129 not worth the effort.  He'll just get promoted and posted out of the way for a couple years.

[medicineman]

It kind of does involve the military, even if it's that bit on the PER about "Ethics", not to mention if this predatorial dweeb is doing wives of troops in his command (or anyone else's for that matter), it's pretty hard on morale.  Not sure if it's still on the books in the US UCMJ, but adultery was a chargeable offense in the US and for this very reason, as it undermines morale of troops, be they home or away.  I've seen my fair share of guys sent home from overseas because of fecal cephalics like that.  Strangely enough, the person was kept in unit lines when the spouses came back ...but I guess it's politically incorrect these days pound the snot out of someone.

 

MM

[CDN Aviator]

It kind of does involve the military, even if it's that bit on the PER about "Ethics",

If that was the case, there are many military member's whos actions on civvy street would land them a low rating in the ethics department. That being said, using this incident as a justification for a low ranking for AF16 wouldnt make it very far and would lead to a pretty justifiable redress.

[ArmyVern]

eye in the sky: this example is based on a true event, i don't want to say too much due to persec which is why i changed the ranks around...

so from what you are saying, is that there is nothing i can do (because it's not a Service Offense), and from the military side there's nothing wrong?

greymatters: my first option has been dealt with (the b**** is gone) i did not want the person to come to my house in the first place and if i was present i'd obviously would of stopped it

Stop!

If your spouse confirmed "the event" and confirmed "the deed" actually occured AND the supervisor is in your immediate Chain of Command - then you have a VERY valid complaint; your very first CoA should be to speak with the "supervisor" (not that I'd call their act 'good leadership') who committed the faux pas and request that either he request a move outside of your immediate CoC or, failing that, that you request an immediate move outside of his CoC. There are 'conflict of interest' and 'conduct prejudicial' concerns with this situation.

If this supervisor is indeed within your CoC there is now indeed a conflict and ergo the supervisor should rightly be the one reporting that a conflict now exists. He had to report such if a Cpl in his section was screwing another Cpl (or another Cpls wife) in the section and effect a move of one or the other. The very same is applicable to himself as it is the same circumstances (only worse as this person may be in a position of immediate authority over you).

If the supervisor in question refuses to action or bring forward your request - ask to immediately consult with the next higher in the CoC. If he refuses to make that appointment for you ... immediately seek out an HA or circumvent him entirely and present yourself at the door of his supervisor.

If this person is in your CoC (or is your supervisor) - this equals "a poisoned work enviornment" which is indeed grounds for an official harassment complaint. If, during the course of the Admin Investigation into your Harrassment Complaint, it is determined that there may have been any service offenses committed - the Admin Invest will be ceased and handed over appropriately for a Disciplinary Investigation.

[mariomike]

I had to deal with a 'wife-swapping' free sex group in a unit,

I haven't heard it called "wife swapping" or "key party" much since the '70's. 
I think it's called "swinging" now.

[CDN Aviator]

AND the supervisor is in your immediate Chain of Command

Stop indeed. The Op said that the "WO" had knowledge of his wife's schedule/whereabouts. The OP never said that this "WO" was in his or her CoC.

[Technoviking]

All of us sitting by the computer have no knowledge of all the particulars of the event.  That said, information is power, and no, we aren't the ones needing information: your superiors do.  Bring this up to your superiors.  If you cannot do so, speak to a padre.  They do more than religious services, they also do social.  If there is the possibility of "shenanigans", then an investigation may be ordered.  If the investigation reveals probable service offence, then charges "may" be laid.  Which section of the NDA?  I don't know: the investigation would reveal that.

Now, if the person to whom you refer was not subject to the code of service discipline during the time of the alleged "shenanigans", then there is nothing that can be done per se.  Of course, if elements of a service offence are found to have occured when said person was subject to the code, then there could, hypothetically, be grounds for a charge laying authority to lay charges.

All that to say: talk to someone.

[ArmyVern]

Stop indeed. The Op said that the "WO" had knowledge of his wife's schedule/whereabouts. The OP never said that this "WO" was in his or her CoC.

That's EXACTLY why that sentence was preceeded by the word IF.

Simply put, "If the incident is factual AND the supervisor is in your immediate CoC ..."

[Eye In The Sky]

Although I am *not* a Supervising Instructor Corporal  I still have a feeling that this might be a Res Frce mbr(s).  Still waiting in the OP to confirm if he can...

[InkerThinker]

Wow, Thank you all for your replies...

All Three (3) of us are in the Reserves (Class B over 180) and we all work under the same 'general' command structure...of a Reg F unit...

About the Easter Bunny signing off... yeah... he seems pretty teflon if you'd ask me.

As for my spouse saying that the events happened... the "WO" is saying that nothing has happened and that my wife is full of crap.
(yet I have proof beyond a doubt that the relationship had occured... (discusting philthy proof...) She has told me things and showed me things that only he would of known and done... Don't question whether it happened... I already know that it did... but the fact that the "WO" is sticking to his guns makes my poisoned working environment turn on me...

the CoC issue the "WO" is not in mine... he is in hers... and is privy to my schedule/whereabouts...etc...

[gcclarke]

the CoC issue the "WO" is not in mine... he is in hers... and is privy to my schedule/whereabouts...etc...

Now that just opens a whole 'nother can of worms. Yeah, I highly suggest you bring this issue up with a Padre. As well, retain whatever proof it is that you have.

[Kat Stevens]

Now that just opens a whole 'nother can of worms. Yeah, I highly suggest you bring this issue up with a Padre. As well, retain whatever proof it is that you have.

And get a lawyer, a real smilin' shark.

[patriot1112]

My ex wife cheated on me while I was in Afghansitan. Rumours have circulated that she also did it with other soldiers. I have no proof of this however it does not matter as we are now in the divorce process and have been apart for over a year.

So coming from experience, go to a Padre ASAP, if you havnt already. They will best be able to guide you on this issue. From personal experience, they get **** done. Get a lawyer. This is your own decision to make, but once a cheater always a cheater in my books. Get that lawyer, if there good, because of her adultery, she should get the short end of the stick.

You don't deserve that at all. You sound like an honest decent guy, and judging by your reaction to this you are. You can do better than this wh*re. Trust me, again from experience, you will find better and be way happier than if you try to work things out with her. Keep in mind it takes two to tango. He may be a complete douchebag, but she played just as much of a part in this as him. If it wasn't for her this wouldn't have happened. DO NOT forget that. Get rid of her and find better for yourself. You deserve it.

[Kat Stevens]

My ex wife cheated on me while I was in Afghansitan. Rumours have circulated that she also did it with other soldiers. I have no proof of this however it does not matter as we are now in the divorce process and have been apart for over a year.

So coming from experience, go to a Padre ASAP, if you havnt already. They will best be able to guide you on this issue. From personal experience, they get **** done. Get a lawyer. This is your own decision to make, but once a cheater always a cheater in my books. Get that lawyer, if there good, because of her adultery, she should get the short end of the stick.

You don't deserve that at all. You sound like an honest decent guy, and judging by your reaction to this you are. You can do better than this wh*re. Trust me, again from experience, you will find better and be way happier than if you try to work things out with her. Keep in mind it takes two to tango. He may be a complete douchebag, but she played just as much of a part in this as him. If it wasn't for her this wouldn't have happened. DO NOT forget that. Get rid of her and find better for yourself. You deserve it.

Best. Post. Ever.

[Carcharodon Carcharias]

Upon my return from Iraq, my now EX left me within 6 days, and cost me over $250,000 to wash her out of my life. She's someone elses nightmare now, living north of Sydney.

That was 2007.

Life rolls on, and now I always look at the glass as being half full. However the journey to where I am now was truly an uphill battle.

Welcome to the broken heart's club.

You'll heal, and meet someone better, but its time she gets her marching papers.

Good luck eh.

OWDU

[PMedMoe]

Don't we already have a "cheating spouse" thread?   

[medicineman]

If that was the case, there are many military member's whos actions on civvy street would land them a low rating in the ethics department. That being said, using this incident as a justification for a low ranking for AF16 wouldnt make it very far and would lead to a pretty justifiable redress.

I would agree except that for cases such as this, conduct off duty is certainly causing potential problems on duty - and it's certainly something that is unbecoming someone in a leadership position.  If these actions are common place with this person (ie this isn't just an isolated incident) and the allegations are able to be backed up, I don't see what's wrong with it going on their PER.  Anyone can redress their PER, especially if they haven't been counselled about their shortcomings and the report is a complete surprise.  My guess is this wouldn't be a complete surprise though - he knows what he's doing, just finally getting called on it.  Just my opinion of course - wouldn't be the first one redressed on me  .

MM

[CDN Aviator]

I would agree except that for cases such as this, conduct off duty is certainly causing potential problems on duty -

In my experience, unless someone was thrown in jail, the "conduct on and off duty" bubble is pretty much a default to "acceptable".

[InkerThinker]

I was NOT trying to start another cheating wives thread by any means...

I wanted to know about how the "WO"s conduct is going to be addressed (if at all)

My suspicion was Abuse of Authority or Art 129 of NDA... but how on earth do I make this person 'pay' for this...

I blame him more than I do my wife as i know how much of a lying suave d*****bag he is, and was easily led by his kind nature... 

So enough about leaving her I've already dealt with her on my own terms and for me it's a dead issue... it's HIM i want advice about.

Thank you all for your words, I've left a message with a local padre and hopefully he'll get back to me shortly so we can talk about this.

Is there any more advice on what (if anything) the military can do to help me with this a$$.

[PMedMoe]

I was NOT trying to start another cheating wives thread by any means...

I wanted to know about how the "WO"s conduct is going to be addressed (if at all)

My suspicion was Abuse of Authority or Art 129 of NDA... but how on earth do I make this person 'pay' for this...

I blame him more than I do my wife as i know how much of a lying suave d*****bag he is, and was easily led by his kind nature... 

So enough about leaving her I've already dealt with her on my own terms and for me it's a dead issue... it's HIM i want advice about.

Thank you all for your words, I've left a message with a local padre and hopefully he'll get back to me shortly so we can talk about this.

Is there any more advice on what (if anything) the military can do to help me with this a$$.

No worries, my remark wasn't directed at you.  I understand what info you were loooking for.  Sorry we couldn't help more, it seems to be a pretty "grey" area.

[InkerThinker]

Sorry we couldn't help more, it seems to be a pretty "grey" area.

How can I help de-'grey' the area? 

[gcclarke]

Ummm the fact that the WO is in the wife's chain of command definitely makes it a non-grey area.

[patriot1112]

I was NOT trying to start another cheating wives thread by any means...

I wanted to know about how the "WO"s conduct is going to be addressed (if at all)

My suspicion was Abuse of Authority or Art 129 of NDA... but how on earth do I make this person 'pay' for this...

I blame him more than I do my wife as i know how much of a lying suave d*****bag he is, and was easily led by his kind nature... 

So enough about leaving her I've already dealt with her on my own terms and for me it's a dead issue... it's HIM i want advice about.

Thank you all for your words, I've left a message with a local padre and hopefully he'll get back to me shortly so we can talk about this.

Is there any more advice on what (if anything) the military can do to help me with this a$$.

I respect your decision to not leave her, as it is ultimately your decision. But as I said, I have experience in this, and my ex wife was the "victim" in this too, he got her drunk, he took her home, he took advantage of her... ya ya ya thats bull****. If she didnt want it, it wouldnt have happened PERIOD. A good woman would see through his crap. Its up to you to decide what to do, but heed my warning, I hope im wrong, but it WILL happen again in another time and another place.

im telling you I wanted to kill this guy, thank and in the state I was in I dont know what I would have done. Thankfully I had a few awesome friends I was on tour with sort me out. Think about it, theres ALWAYS gonna be some suave douchebag, and there will ALWAYS be someone who wants to get in her pants. Its hard beleive me I know. But when your on EX shes gonna be the one making the decisions, not you. She has just proven she is a poor decision maker and cannot be trusted. Cut your losses, take your licks. You'll be thankful for it later.

[Technoviking]

Ignore the advice on the particulars of your situation that you receive in this thread, other than anything that says "seek advice of your padre or chain-of-command".  Leave her, stay with her, whatever.  I don't really care.

Also remember as to what "could" happen in the hypothetical case of "shenanigans", no matter what they are, is that there are disciplinary and administrative procedures.  Both, neither, or either could happen.  There is no such thing as "double jeopardy" when it comes to that.  Suffice it to say: get info and give info: to those who need it.

[recceguy]

Ignore the advice on the particulars of your situation that you receive in this thread, other than anything that says "seek advice of your padre or chain-of-command".  Leave her, stay with her, whatever.  I don't really care.

Also remember as to what "could" happen in the hypothetical case of "shenanigans", no matter what they are, is that there are disciplinary and administrative procedures.  Both, neither, or either could happen.  There is no such thing as "double jeopardy" when it comes to that.  Suffice it to say: get info and give info: to those who need it.

Thanks MR,

We're done here. You've got your advice. What you do with it is up to you.

Locked

Milnet.ca Staff