Topic: BGen Ménard relieved of Afganistan Comd & other fall-outs

[Infanteer]

Alright, I've cleaned this one up again.  Once more and we'll simply lock it because nobody wants to play nice.

As the staff message above states, let's maintain a sense of professionalism and avoid kniving the guy to bits on the internet.

[NFLD Sapper]

Maybe under CF rules ND's are treated as a court martial offense ?

It's rank-dependent.  Over a certain rank it's automatically CM.

Most mere mortals get the choice of Summary Trial (quick and relatively painless) or CM (long, drawn out, more powers of punishment).

When I got charged for an ND I had no choice, it went straight to Summary Trial..... was quick and painless... all I had to do was pay a fine....

[jollyjacktar]

At any rate you can just hear the needle going across the record on this one.

[Tank Troll]

When I got charged for an ND I had no choice, it went straight to Summary Trial..... was quick and painless... all I had to do was pay a fine....

That is what he also got for his ND a fine. It happened in Kosov With the CO of the Dragoons. He leaned forward in the tank his helmet hit the manual fire plunger on the CO-AX and fired a burst in to the tank in front of him. He plead Guilty and was fined.

It also doesn't matter the caliber either. The boys in MSG had a ND with a 105mm and The amount was the same a 5.56.

[Petamocto]

That is what he also got for his ND a fine.

Very different.

NFLD Sapper said he did not get to elect ST or CM, it just went to ST.

BGen Menard had a CM, and did not get to choose.

The fact that they both ended up with a fine does not make a ST and CM the same.

[Rider Pride]

The media went into a piranha-like feeding frenzy on this one; the joys of a sex related scandal on a Sunday.

Lets see how long this story will have legs.

The only thing concerning is that with the spotlight being on CF Sr leadership, and their "transgressions", it is giving peoples, who are in need of a ringhold to discredit the military (i.e. Afghan detainees), a foothold argument by which they will try to point out that we are not as honourable or as disciplined as we all make ourselves out to be.

[mariomike]

Jack Granatstein had this to say:
"Granatstein said the accusation against Menard does not reflect a wider problem within the higher ranks of the military.
The allegation delivers a black eye to Menard, rather than the military, Granatstein said.":
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100530/national/afghan_cda_commander_relieved

[GAP]

Tough-as-nails fire-plug Vance is unlike Ménard in almost every way
 By MATTHEW FISHER, Canwest News Service May 31, 2010
 Article Link
 
If any soldier is well suited to replace Canada's Afghan commander, Brig.-Gen. Daniel Ménard - suddenly sent home in disgrace this weekend after allegations of an affair - it would be his emergency replacement, Brig.-Gen. Jon Vance, fellow soldiers say.

When a colonel in Kabul familiar with NATO operations across the south of Afghanistan was asked last fall what would be the best thing Canada could do to make its mission in Kandahar a success, his prophetic answer was: "Just leave Jon Vance there for two more years."

Told of this high praise at the time, Vance replied that he had been fortunate to serve when U.S. reinforcements were flowing in. This summer, with even more Americans surging into Canada's battle space, Vance will be running the war for NATO in four districts abutting Kandahar City as well as in the provincial capital itself.

Vance preceded Ménard as commander in Afghanistan. He's now being rushed to Kandahar to take over for Ménard and will command the Canadian task force again until September.

A general's son and, like Ménard, a career infantry officer, Vance's warrior spirit won over the senior British and U.S. commanders he worked with during the 10 months he served in Kandahar last year. In particular, he forged close relationships with NATO's top commander, U.S. army General Stanley McChrystal, and British Maj.-Gen. Nick Carter, ISAF Regional Command South.

Vance will have a chance to refine the second phase of the classic counter-insurgency strategy that he adopted early in his Kandahar tenure. Where his soldiers spent much of last year clearing the Taliban out of what were to become "model villages," the Canadians have mostly been in a hold phase lately as they start to do a little building.

Ménard and Vance may have grown up in the same army, but the two generals are very different types in every respect. Where Ménard is lanky, relaxed and always charming, Vance is a diminutive fire plug with a reputation as a driven, tough-as-nails commander.

During one of his last battlefield visits as commander of Task Force Kandahar last November, Vance lectured leaders in Panjwaii and Zhari districts that westerners had grown impatient with Afghanistan's political class and that if corruption and misrule continued they might strike their tents and go home: "We have lost too many soldiers and spent too much of our people's money to stay if there is not honest co-operation. Canadians, Americans, the British - everyone is wondering whether it is worth it to stay."
end

[Infanteer]

QR&O 108.6

“163. (1) A commanding officer may try an accused person by summary trial if all of the following conditions are satisfied:
(a) the accused person is either an officer cadet or a non-commissioned member below the rank of warrant officer;

For General Officers, there is no oppurtunity to elect.

[Tank Troll]

Very different.

NFLD Sapper said he did not get to elect ST or CM, it just went to ST.

BGen Menard had a CM, and did not get to choose.

The fact that they both ended up with a fine does not make a ST and CM the same.

I realize that a ST and a CM are different. I was saying that the out come was the same, a fine. Sorry if that was hard to understand from  my post. My Bad

[Petamocto]

TT,

No worries, I am still scratching my head over Nfld Sapper not having the option to elect.  Potentially in a trg-type environment where it was common and there was a unit SOP for how to deal with them?

[dapaterson]

Right to elect depends on the nature of the charge. 

Per QR&O 108.17, a 129 does not give a right to elect provided

the circumstances surrounding the commission of the offence are sufficiently minor in nature that the officer exercising summary trial jurisdiction over the accused concludes that a punishment of detention, reduction in rank or a fine in excess of 25 per cent of monthly basic pay would not be warranted if the accused were found guilty of the offence.

As long as it's anticipated the fine will be under the equivalent of 7 1/2 days of pay, there is no right to elect.  And a smart RSM/Adjt combination will ensure all minor charges are dealt with in a way to prevent elections - keep the write-ups simple so the JAG sign off comes quickly, and get the wheels of justice proceeding quickly and smoothly, to resolve things in the unit with as little delay as is possible.

[tomahawk6]

Menards fine of $3500 was pretty stiff.

[Petamocto]

Menards fine of $3500 was pretty stiff.

I think quite in line with the escalation of rank and significance, though.  Something like $200 would have been silly because untrained Ptes and OCdts get that while in training and make 1/10th the money he does.  Something like $10,000 would have been Thor's hammer.

[recceguy]

Menards fine of $3500 was pretty stiff.

Not particularly. 2 rounds @ $1750 per. NCMs and others have gotten $1500 per round.

[Petamocto]

Not particularly. 2 rounds @ $1750 per. NCMs and others have gotten $1500 per round.

It averages out that way, but I am not certain if it is done on a "per round" basis.

I think it is more in line with the significance of the act (at least that's what I have seen in the training system).

If someone has an ND that's a 4-5 round burst with the C9, it is seen as slightly more significant than a C7 one-round ND but not five-times worse.  For example, that candidate might get a $300 fine instead of a $200 fine (if that's the going C7 rate), but certainly not a $1000 fine because he still only made one mistake.

However, if someone had multiple C7 NDs on different days, he might get a $200 fine, then $400, then $1,000 because he has now made three different errors and is not progressing.

[Strike]

One has to wonder why Yon has such a hate-on for Menard.  The only thing that seems to fit is that Menard probably told Yon to pound salt at some point in the past. 

 

[GAP]

More Media commentary....


No sex, please. We're soldiers
Article Link

Erin Anderssen

From Monday's Globe and Mail Published on Sunday, May. 30, 2010 10:49PM EDT Last updated on Sunday, May. 30, 2010 10:50PM EDT

It’s a no-nookie zone, officially. Having feelings for a fellow soldier at the Canadian base in Kandahar is against the military’s fraternization rules, let alone sneaking off with the coveted keys to a light-armoured vehicle and its air-conditioned rear cabin.

But let’s face it, these are young, buff men and women working closely together in life-and-death situations. On weekend nights, the Dutch often host a disco on the base – it’s alcohol free, but the flirty dancing, says a journalist who’s attended, is closer than sanctioned military standards. Scoring the keys to the LAV is an open joke, since the vehicles are one of the few private spots for a rendezvous away from the desert heat. The army store on the base sells western-style lingerie. And there’s a reason, suggest journalists stationed in Kandahar, why condoms (ostensibly for soldiers going on leave) are freely available in the waiting room at the doctor’s office.

But when a commanding officer allegedly partakes in a similar dalliance, breaking the very rules that he’s required to set on the base, there’s no looking the other way.

“The people who are at the top simply must follow the rules and must set an example,” says Canadian military historian Jack Granatstein. “If they don’t then there is no enforcing discipline on others, and maybe more important, things down the ranks. How can I enforce discipline, when Private Jones says to me, yeah but you’re screwing so and so.”
More on link

[Tank Troll]

From what I've seen over the years it usually works out to a half months pay regardless of how many rounds were fired. (a burst will be the same as a single shot) How ever this is normally with live rounds only. In training a ND with blanks usually cost 200 Bucks, which is just enough money to stay on your permanent record 

[jollyjacktar]

It averages out that way, but I am not certain if it is done on a "per round" basis.

I think it is more in line with the significance of the act (at least that's what I have seen in the training system).

If someone has an ND that's a 4-5 round burst with the C9, it is seen as slightly more significant than a C7 one-round ND but not five-times worse.  For example, that candidate might get a $300 fine instead of a $200 fine (if that's the going C7 rate), but certainly not a $1000 fine because he still only made one mistake.

However, if someone had multiple C7 NDs on different days, he might get a $200 fine, then $400, then $1,000 because he has now made three different errors and is not progressing.

Waaay back when I was in 1CMBG, the BG Commander did charge per round, $100. for each.  One poor C-9 gunner let off a burst of 23 rounds.  Costly mistake.

[Petamocto]

One poor C-9 gunner let off a burst of 23 rounds.

 

Sweet Jebus, was he getting tazed at the time or something?  How in the heck can you hold your hand on the trigger that long and not realize something bad was happening?

It can't have been a runaway gun either because then the gun would have been at fault (for the last 20 rounds, anyway) unless they didn't test the functioning of the weapon back then.

[jollyjacktar]

Who can say, some of the kids had heavy trigger fingers.  I remember one of the Sgts screaming at a kid on the firing line WRT trigger control and bursts with the C-9.  " How many times do I have to tell you!  It's F@#K, F#$K  for a three round burst!!! Not a$$$$$$$Hole!!!"  Needless to say we were rolling on the ground laughing our collective asses off. 

There had been, over the previous few months, quite a number of NDs.  The General was cracking down in an effort to make folks more responsible.  Same thing went for traffic accidents after a couple of Ptes rolled and wrote off a brand new HLVW wrecker because they did not want to go through a mud puddle on the Sarcee Ranges.  They went around it on a hill and she rolled over like a dog it was a total loss.  Had been a rash of preventable accidents too.  I guess you could say there was a need for a wake up call.  Speaking for myself, I watched my  Ps and Qs after that.

[ArmyVern]

Disregarding the last few posts, I'm pretty sure I'm sticking this article in the proper thread ... highlights mine.
From the TorStar tonight:

(Reproduced under the fair dealings provision of the copyright act ...)

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/817125--general-toppled-by-a-corporal-s-revelation

OTTAWA —The extraordinary confession of a corporal set in motion the bombshell revelation that ended the tenure and possibly the military career of Canada’s top soldier in Afghanistan, the Star has learned.

The unidentified solider told a trusted confidant at the Kandahar Airfield about her relationship with Brig.-Gen. Daniel Ménard, sparking a chain of events that reached the top echelons of the military and the government.
Within 24 hours, both Ménard and the soldier, a member of his staff, were on the same military transport plane, headed back to Canada, one defence source told the Star.

In the course of a day, Ménard had gone from commanding 5,000 American and Canadian troops getting ready to launch a major offensive in southern Afghanistan to a humiliating return to Canada to face a possible court martial.

The military gave no date for his return. However, one source said his wife, Maj. Julie Fortin, who commands a logistics company at Canadian Forces Base Valcartier in Quebec, was planning to meet him when he arrived back in Canada.

Military experts struggled Monday to recall a similar case of a high-profile commander being stripped of his command. Rarer still is such a case in a war zone. And they wondered why he would risk the high-point of his career on a battlefield dalliance.

“He is the senior commander. He knows the rules. . . . He knows the consequences and should have known better,” said retired colonel Alain Pellerin, head of the Ottawa-based Conference of Defence Associations.

He noted that Ménard commanded several thousand American troops as well as Canadians, reflecting the trust of Canada’s ally in Afghanistan’s south.

“They must have confidence in him to place three battalions under his command. He was a good, solid, professional officer.” Pellerin said.

After a harried few hours on Saturday, all that was gone.

However, defence sources say the decision reflects both the seriousness of the allegation and the fact the Canadian Forces didn’t want a commander in place with a cloud over his head at the very time that coalition troops are preparing for their offensive.

Sources describe a frantic weekend of long-distance communications and high-level decisions that all began with one woman’s alarming disclosure about the relationship. It’s not known whether she made the revelation as an off-hand remark or as a deliberate move to seek help.

Whatever the case, it set off alarm bells that soon reverberated up the chain of command.

The soldier who heard the remark alerted Ménard’s second-in-command, Col. Simon Hetheringon, who immediately brought it to the attention of Lt.-Gen. Marc Lessard, who heads Canadian Expeditionary Force Command.

After discussions with Gen. Walt Natynczyk, the chief of defence staff, the decision was made to strip Ménard of his command because of “inappropriate conduct” and bring him home.

Throughout it all, Defence Minister Peter MacKay was kept in the loop by Vice-Admiral Bruce Donaldson, the vice-chief of defence staff who is second-in-command of the Canada’s armed forces.

Upon his return to Canada, Ménard will report to the chief of land staff, Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie, in Ottawa.

“His exact duties are not known at this time,” said Matthew Lindsey, a civilian spokespersons for the defence department.

“We will not comment or make predictions with regards to Brig.-Gen. Ménard’s future with the Canadian Forces right now,” Lindsey said.

He confirmed that another soldier is involved in the incident but declined to comment further, pending the investigation by the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service, a branch of the military police that handles serious or sensitive defence probes.

Leslie appeared before a Senate committee Monday to discuss issues facing the army but later slipped out to avoid speaking with reporters about Ménard’s case.

Not much is known about the nature of the relationship or how long it had been going on.

“It obviously broke the rules. The allegation was serious enough that the system had to react and remove him,” Pellerin said.

The investigation is likely to look at whether this is an isolated incident.

Ménard, who joined the Canadian Forces in 1984, was said to have been humiliated after having to own up to the negligent discharge of his rifle while preparing to board a helicopter, while Natynczyk looked on.

That offence got him a $3,500 fine. This latest revelation risks bringing even greater disgrace for the once rising military star.

“You want to talk about humiliation. You’ve just been relieved of command and you’re being flown home,” said one defence source.

While his wife is also a member of the Canadian Forces, it’s not likely she was in Kandahar at the same time he was. Military policy discourages married couples from serving in positions where one spouse has to report to the other.

“She’s not allowed to be anywhere in his chain of command,” Pellerin said.

And because Ménard commands all soldiers in Afghanistan that made it impossible for her to serve there, too.

[Michael O'Leary]

Within 24 hours, both Ménard and the soldier, a member of his staff, were on the same military transport plane, headed back to Canada, one defence source told the Star.

They were flown out on the same plane? That must have been awkward.

[Technoviking]

If that article is true, I sure as crap hope it was more than just the Cpl's word that got him sent home.