Topic: 100% Home Equity Assistance (Relocation 2010)

[TimBit]

captloadie:

I disagree with you. PMQ's and military housing are a fundamental part of not only military administration, but lifestyle, in most militaries of the western world. Their reason for being is to provide flexibility which the market may not be able to provide. I am sorry, but if you are posted out of season twice in two years from one small community to another, it may not be feasible to find conveniently located affordable housing to suit your family needs. Again, it all comes down to the one thing service personnel are asked to do which few others are: move whenever told wherever told. In this context, Q's provide flexibility, i.e. the choice b/w the economy, if doable, or  another option.

I think Q's on all bases should remain.

[captloadie]

With the exception of maybe Edmonton, where else is there a shortage of rental accommodations near areas members get posted to? The issue of cost is supposed to be irrelevant, as PMQs are expected to be at or near market value for the area. I have been posted out twice in two years, one of those time out of season, and guess what I had to do until I sold my old house and found something new? That's right, I went IR.

Lots of companies, and other Government departments move people around, and they normally don't have subsidized housing? Does the RCMP have accommodations for the Mounties in all the little places they get posted too?

And as for the poor private with three kids who couldn't afford to live without a PMQ, really? It is called family planning. Don't have more kids than you can afford to look after.

Anyway, I think we have probably hijacked this thread long enough.

[George Wallace]

With the exception of maybe Edmonton, where else is there a shortage of rental accommodations near areas members get posted to?

Ottawa.

Lots of companies, and other Government departments move people around, and they normally don't have subsidized housing? Does the RCMP have accommodations for the Mounties in all the little places they get posted too?

Yes, they do.  If you may have noticed, many of Canada's smaller RCMP Detachments are located in a building that is designed as one half Office, one half living quarters. 

[N. McKay]

Lots of companies, and other Government departments move people around, and they normally don't have subsidized housing?

But, again, there are very few situations in which a company or OGD will require a person to move to a certain place, on a certain date, with very little possibility of saying "no".  "Take this new position in Alberta or you'll never see another promotion in this company" is a possibility, but "You will be the new Regional Director of Tire Recycling in Peace River starting 7 Sep 10 and if you don't like it you can take two weeks' notice" is extremely rare, and certainly not a routine part of anyone's career progression outside of the regular force.

And as for the poor private with three kids who couldn't afford to live without a PMQ, really? It is called family planning. Don't have more kids than you can afford to look after.

Not a bad point at all.

[acooper]

And as for the poor private with three kids who couldn't afford to live without a PMQ, really? It is called family planning. Don't have more kids than you can afford to look after.

What you call "family planning" doesn't always fit with the morals or religious compulsions of a CF Member, however. Are you saying that someone shouldn't join the forces and serve their country simply because they want a large family? Essentially, I don't think you know enough about that private's situation to criticize him.

 I think it's entirely reasonable for at least SOME housing like the PMQs to be available. Not everyone wants them, or needs them. But some people need them, because of various situations. And some people want them, again, for varying reasons.

We're moving into one of the SHHO units in Ottawa, and looked at the PMQs. Without those options, we wouldn't be able to afford to live in Ottawa, even with one child, until my husband finishes his GeoTech course. From what I can tell, the SHHO and PMQs are priced a little under market value for Ottawa. I haven't fully read through this thread, but has anyone done an analysis of what it would cost the CF to keep a family separated and the CF member on IR vs building/maintaining some PMQs and/or SHHO units to house a percentage of the junior ranks expected to be posted to a given area?

[N. McKay]

What you call "family planning" doesn't always fit with the morals or religious compulsions of a CF Member, however. Are you saying that someone shouldn't join the forces and serve their country simply because they want a large family?

I would suggest that the real point is that a person -- whatever his or her occupation -- shouldn't have more kids than he or she can afford to feed and house.

[acooper]

I would suggest that the real point is that a person -- whatever his or her occupation -- shouldn't have more kids than he or she can afford to feed and house.

That theory may work fine for you, and for me, as well, but it's simply not compatible with some people's way of life, religion, morals, etc. I've seen many families live well, with many kids, on a relatively small income.  What I think it comes down to is that the CF should be providing affordable housing for its members WHO NEED IT. Not for the higher ranks who make plenty to live on the economy, but for those of lower ranks who wish to serve their country, and whose families are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to support those wishes.

This, of course, assumes the answer I'm expecting to my previous question - that it's more affordable to build and maintain PMQs than to keep all those members separated from their families on IR...

[dapaterson]

Pte pay: $32-47K.  Cpl pay: $53 - 57K.  Non-specialist.  Spec pay can get a Cpl up to $69K.  These are not starvation wages.

The CF provides a healthy compensation package.  The pension plan is one of the best in the country, with the employer paying roughly 2/3 of the cost.  Full medical and dental coverage, plus spousal and dependant coverage through the PSHCP at no cost to the member.  Adding more to the compensation package, in the form of subsidized housing, is unsustainable in this fiscal environment.  Adding a benefit that only some receive (such as subsidized housing)  unfairly penalizes those who do not take advantage of it.  Initiatives like PLD provide support.


There has been a deliberate effort to get government out of businesses where there is a local market to meet needs.  Housing, in most base locations, is one of those things.

[N. McKay]

That theory may work fine for you, and for me, as well, but it's simply not compatible with some people's way of life, religion, morals, etc.

Then let me say much the same thing as I said before, but turn it the other way: a person who chooses  - for any reason - to have a large family should find a job that will provide enough income to support that family.  If he or she can find such a job in the Forces, then that's great.  If not, keep looking.

This, of course, assumes the answer I'm expecting to my previous question - that it's more affordable to build and maintain PMQs than to keep all those members separated from their families on IR...

That's a pretty important question, but also a complex one.

[PuckChaser]

I guess the dinosaur attitude of "the Army didn't issue you that family" never really goes away, does it?

Sure, we don't need PMQs. Must not need the MFRC, or the Canex either. I'm sure if you told a family of 5 (heck even 4) that instead of their $800 a month PMQ, they have to spend $1000 on a mortgage, plus utilities, plus property tax, they'd have some choice words thrown in your general direction. Oh, but they could live 45 minutes out of town and spend 80 bucks a week on gas even in a good mileage 4 cylinder car just to get back and forth to work.

[dapaterson]

Full-time military compensation is extremely generous.  Pay scales are public information.  No one goes in blind.  If you can't make do on the CF's pay (and benefits), don't join.

It's really quite simple.


(And re: Canex: it costs more to run than it returns to communities.  Contract it out what's needed in remote areas and close the remainder.  Cheaper and better service, too).

[Pusser]

I guess the dinosaur attitude of "the Army didn't issue you that family" never really goes away, does it?

Sure, we don't need PMQs. Must not need the MFRC, or the Canex either. I'm sure if you told a family of 5 (heck even 4) that instead of their $800 a month PMQ, they have to spend $1000 on a mortgage, plus utilities, plus property tax, they'd have some choice words thrown in your general direction. Oh, but they could live 45 minutes out of town and spend 80 bucks a week on gas even in a good mileage 4 cylinder car just to get back and forth to work.

At what point did the taxpayer become responsible for a CF member's lifestyle choices?  Does anyone dump on IBM because they no longer provide housing for their employees?  People need to grow up and learn to live within their means.  Although there are certain locations where PMQs should be provided, for the most part, we should be getting out of the housing business.  It's a huge money loser and what we spend in maintenance could be better spent on other programs (e.g. PLD).

The CF provides a generous compensation package by any standard and it is worth noting that if you compare it to those militaries that have "better" housing benefits, you will also find that their pay packages are considerably less than ours.  In short, they are completely dependent on their respective militaries to provide them with housing and when they retire, they are left in the cold.  Remember also that a higher salary (which comes with lesser housing benefits) also leads to a better pension in the end.  The lesson here is to understand how much money you make and find accommodation within your means.  As a final note, before you moan and drip about how much you have to spend on gas when you live way out in the boonies, consider selling the car and using the money you save to live closer and take the bus.

[ArmyVern]

I guess the dinosaur attitude of "the Army didn't issue you that family" never really goes away, does it?

Sure, we don't need PMQs. Must not need the MFRC, or the Canex either. I'm sure if you told a family of 5 (heck even 4) that instead of their $800 a month PMQ, they have to spend $1000 on a mortgage, plus utilities, plus property tax, they'd have some choice words thrown in your general direction. Oh, but they could live 45 minutes out of town and spend 80 bucks a week on gas even in a good mileage 4 cylinder car just to get back and forth to work.

You forget though that MFRC's exist now exactly because of those "dinosaurs" who are serving. The same dinosaurs who are "the higher ups making so much money these days who can afford to live on the local economy" (according to acooper). The same dinosaurs who, a mere decade and a half ago when they were Ptes & Cpls, had to go to food banks to feed their families because, unlike now, they weren't even paid a livable wage. Those same guys & gals that stood before SCONDVA with their complaints about "not getting paid enough to support myself, let alone a family. Having to declare bankruptcy, going deeper into debt each month, etc." Those dinosaurs certainly didn't have the benefit of tax-free tours or left-overs from weekly pays to save up for downpayments for home purchases. Some of them went so far into debt during that time period that it is only in the past few years that they are able to save up for downpayments.

The ironic thing is ... those that are dinosaurs still living in Qs now are, a whole lot of the time, the same ones we all said to ourselves back then when they were Ptes/Cpls "we don't make a decent living wage ... STOP having kids if you can't afford them." Lots of them "chose" to keep having more kids anyway --- with an expectation that they could afford it because the CF is "obligated" to provide me with subsidized housing (says who!!??). Only just now (that the kids are moving out) able to afford to save up for a downpayment ... and some even still paying of credit cards they racked up back then.

No one should be having kids or more kids, regardless of employment, if they expect grease from their employer or the taxpayer to make that "affordable" for them; that's their lifestyle choice, but it shouldn't be dependant upon someone "else" who is NOT part of their family having to do anything to make it "affordable" for them. We already have incentives that cover higher cost of living areas etc; we call it PLD and people know what their wages are going to be when they volunteer to join this outfit.

Qs began being torn down in the mid-90s ... this is not new and shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[Lex Parsimoniae]

I understand that several applications have been sent up and none have been approved.

HEA has been approved in at least one APS 2010 case in Esquimalt.

[GINge!]

Hey folks:

Looking to start a discussion on HEA (100% from Core). 

Heavy Reader - any follow up to this? Market out here took another stumble this summer. Looks like I will be asking the CM to keep me here for a 5th year to avoid losing on the house. At this point, I'd rather take the hit to the career than the wallet...hopefully the branch gives me that option. Two IR's out of 8 cost moves...not looking to do a third IR.

[4Feathers]

BINGO, but it would not have been your loss would it?

Try finding a civvy employer anywhere who would do such a thing for their employee who had to move!! You won't; they get the old "move or you're fired. period."

Damn, we doooooo have it good here in the CF with the options we get.

As a professional in many major corps, not only do they pay for everything to move you, they buy your house for you if it does not sell. Not sure where you are getting your info from. Also, some other federal gov't departments buy your home from you if it does not sell and they have moved your employment. Our system with IRP is not as golden as you think it is, and just my opinion but I think it is pathetic  considering our unlimited liability clause and requirement to move when it suits them.

[George Wallace]

......... Also, some other federal gov't departments buy your home from you if it does not sell and they have moved your employment. Our system with IRP is not as golden as you think it is, and just my opinion but I think it is pathetic  considering our unlimited liability clause and requirement to move when it suits them.

I don't know where you got this information, and would be curious to see it in "Black and White", as Treasury Board makes the policies, not individual Gov't Depts.  I have never heard of any Gov't Dept buying a person's home if they could not sell it.


As for major Corporations doing this, I can agree that they will bend over backwards to attract their "high priced talent", but are unlikely to do so for their "common peons".  As an example, Chrysler may have done that for Lee Iaccoca, but surely didn't do it for someone working on the assembly line floor.

[4Feathers]

I don't know where you got this information, and would be curious to see it in "Black and White", as Treasury Board makes the policies, not individual Gov't Depts.  I have never heard of any Gov't Dept buying a person's home if they could not sell it.


As for major Corporations doing this, I can agree that they will bend over backwards to attract their "high priced talent", but are unlikely to do so for their "common peons".  As an example, Chrysler may have done that for Lee Iaccoca, but surely didn't do it for someone working on the assembly line floor.

RCMP and CSIS both offer to buy your home in their relocation benefits, not to mention at least half of the top 100 employers list for Canada. This is for the rank and file, not just the CEO's. http://www.canadastop100.com/national/

[George Wallace]

RCMP and CSIS both offer to buy your home in their relocation benefits, not to mention at least half of the top 100 employers list for Canada. This is for the rank and file, not just the CEO's. http://www.canadastop100.com/national/

I haven't read anywhere of any Gov't Dept buying your home if you can't sell it.  I did read:

extensive relocation support services (from a guaranteed home sale program to language training for spouses);

; and that does not say anything about the Gov't buying your home.  It says that they have a program similar to our IRP program.

I'll let an RCMP member on this site confirm or deny your claims about the RCMP purchasing a member's home when they are posted and can not sell.

[CDN Aviator]

RCMP relocation policy :

http://www.irp-pri.com/images/filesFor_about_otherInfo/RCMP_IRP_2009_10_FINAL_E.pdf

Policy does not contain any provisions for the GoC to buy your home if you cant sell.

[Zoomie]

RCMP uses the same company (Brookfield) to relocate.  They are subject to the same conditions under IRP.

The difference that exists in our National Police force is that you are not expected to move until your house is sold.  We had a local mountie stave off a posting by up to 2 years by purposedly being obstinate in dealing with would-be buyers and by overpricing her home.

[Pusser]

ALL Federal Government employee/member (i.e. CF, RCMP, Public Service) moves fall under the same Treasury Board policies.  In fact it's the same person at Treasury Board Secretariat who manages the program.  It's also a single program with a single contract for all three groups (i.e. the INTEGRATED Relocation Program).  Although there are some minor differences between how the program is administered among the three groups, the major benefits are identical.  The Federal Government does not buy mounties' or public servants' homes.

[4Feathers]

ALL Federal Government employee/member (i.e. CF, RCMP, Public Service) moves fall under the same Treasury Board policies.  In fact it's the same person at Treasury Board Secretariat who manages the program.  It's also a single program with a single contract for all three groups (i.e. the INTEGRATED Relocation Program).  Although there are some minor differences between how the program is administered among the three groups, the major benefits are identical.  The Federal Government does not buy mounties' or public servants' homes.nn

I work in the same building as CSIS, the policies are applied a lot differently, as they are with the RCMP. I would sure like the option of not moving until my house sold. If you have a spouse, two kids and a dog and are posted during the normal APS, I bet things go well, but if you just got back from Afghanistan, are a single parent, then posted in the dead of winter things are not always as simple. I suppose it always looks greener, but IMHO our IRP benefits are not that great, and I bet if we did a pole for those who have moved 3 or 4 times in the last ten years most would agree.  I will do a quick check and confirm how many thousand grievances we have in the system related to move benefits.

[Pusser]

I work in the same building as CSIS, the policies are applied a lot differently, as they are with the RCMP. I would sure like the option of not moving until my house sold. If you have a spouse, two kids and a dog and are posted during the normal APS, I bet things go well, but if you just got back from Afghanistan, are a single parent, then posted in the dead of winter things are not always as simple. I suppose it always looks greener, but IMHO our IRP benefits are not that great, and I bet if we did a pole for those who have moved 3 or 4 times in the last ten years most would agree.  I will do a quick check and confirm how many thousand grievances we have in the system related to move benefits.

Don't confuse apples and oranges.  The move benefits available to the CF/RCMP/Public Service are pretty much the same.  But the timing of a posting and/or move (e.g. immediately upon return from deployment) is not an IRP issue.  It's a chain of command issue.

I've moved twice under IRP and found it to be quite superior to the way we used to do it.

[PPCLI Guy]

but IMHO our IRP benefits are not that great, and I bet if we did a pole for those who have moved 3 or 4 times in the last ten years most would agree. 

I have moved 4 times in the last 5 years including one OUTCAN, and I am now renting out my house in Ottawa while I rent here in Edmonton.  IRP is what it is, and moving frequently comes with the territory for some members of the forces (but evidently not all members).  I have yet to suffer any financial losses as a result of moving (less OUTCAN, where my wife's visa precluded her from working), and so IRP works just fine from my perspective.

If I wanted stability and predictability in my life, I would have stayed a civvie - but then of course I would have been in a job that added little in value to the country as a whole.  I traded up to a job that matters in the larger scheme of things, at the cost of stability and predictability.  From my perspective, I made the right choice.