Topic: Reserve Cpl to Reg forces Cpl faster?

[NDC]

Yes, I searched, couldnt find the info I was curious about.

So, I am pretty sure I am going to try to join soon, and my dream job is as a Reg Forces Musician, yet its not the easiest to get into (not to mention next auditon period is next september), so while I am going to try for that eventually for sure, I've been looking into other trades which interest me, and there are afew that do, which I might try to do for afew years before, just for the experience, then try for Musician after my first contract is done in 5 years or so..

But something I was told by someone whos in the reg forces right now, is that an idea that might be best, especially in my situation where I eventually want to either OT or wait out my first contract, is to join the reserves first, spend a year or so to become a Cpl, then to join the reg forces.

He was saying that in the Reg Forces, it can take 3-4+ years to become a Cpl, while in the Reserves it is significantly shorter, like 1 year (assuming your CO recommends you).. Is this true??

I dunno if I'll do that, cause my city doesnt have much for reserves anyways (that im interested in) and I think I would rather be fulltime from the start, but Its an option I'll look into if thats the case, which might help if I did switch and be a Cpl sooner than if I join Reg forces from the start..

Any insight?

[Nauticus]

If I'm correct, a reservist may get promoted to Cpl after 2 or more years of service. And no, once you're a Cpl in the reserves, you may not still be a Cpl if you transfer to the regular force. I don't recall the "time-in" requirements to keep your rank, but after 2 years as a reservist Cpl, you won't be a Cpl in the regular force.

Like really, you train one night a week, one weekend a month and may get promoted more quickly, and you are suggesting that it compares to the promotions of the regular force?

[George Wallace]

There are quite a few factors involved here, so there is no "Simple Answer".

In the Reserves you may have a shorter time requirement to become a Cpl, but you will still have to meet the requirements of being "Trade Qualified".   If you are a Reserve Cpl, and qualified in a Trade that has Regular Force standards on your Trades courses, and you have a Deployment under your belt, you MAY retain your rank on a Component Transfer to the Regular Force, if you are not doing an Occupational Transfer (changing Trades) as well.   If you think you can do all this in less than two years, you would likely find that you are wrong in that assumption.

[PuckChaser]

Its pretty difficult to figure out rank retention. I just had a member posted into my unit who got his MCpls just before he transferred to the RegF, and he retained it. No tour, not even as a Cpl. It may very well depend on the career manager for the trade you're transferring into, and how packed full of experience your MPRR is.

[Celticgirl]

If I'm correct, a reservist may get promoted to Cpl after 2 or more years of service. And no, once you're a Cpl in the reserves, you may not still be a Cpl if you transfer to the regular force. I don't recall the "time-in" requirements to keep your rank, but after 2 years as a reservist Cpl, you won't be a Cpl in the regular force.

According to my superiors, this is incorrect. If you are trade qualified to QL5A, have your two years' seniority, and you are not doing an OT as well, there should be no rank relinquishment upon doing a CT to Reg F.

Like really, you train one night a week, one weekend a month and may get promoted more quickly, and you are suggesting that it compares to the promotions of the regular force?

Like really, you do know that not all reservists are one-night-a-week soldiers? Some of us actually work 40 hrs a week in the PRes. A lot of us, as a matter of fact.

If you look up the promotions guidelines, you will see that the rate for being promoted is the same for all ranks other than Private to Corporal (shorter in the Reserves) and MWO to CWO (longer in the Reserves).

[CDN Aviator]

Like really, you do know that not all reservists are one-night-a-week soldiers? Some of us actually work 40 hrs a week in the PRes. A lot of us, as a matter of fact.

Notwithstanding the fact that we dont realy have an air reserve ( since we seem to employ the vast majority full-time), the army reserves is much larger and its part-time staff dwarfs the air reserve.

40 hours a week eh ? whats it like having that much free time ?   

[Celticgirl]

Notwithstanding the fact that we dont realy have an air reserve ( since we seem to employ the vast majority full-time), the army reserves is much larger and its part-time staff dwarfs the air reserve.

40 hours a week eh ? whats it like having that much free time ?   

Yes, but that's 40 hours plus a second job I do two evenings a week plus volunteering with my daughter's Girl Guide troop...it sure feels like a full dance card to me. 

By the way, I am less familiar with the promotion policy (i.e. if it differs) for Army because I know that the training is different (not Reg F trg like the Air Res does). Does that affect them upon CT? I could see where it might, actually, but I don't recall ever seeing that in the pubs I have studied.

Cdn Aviator, you know everything...riddle me that. 

[Retired FDO]

No body can say for sure whether you will retain your rank with a CT. When I did I had 4 years as a Reserve. 2 1/2 full time and several deployments with the RegF. I lost it all and went in as an OD with QL3 and one year towards seniority. Today it all depends on what the Occupation Manager decides you will be offered. I don't know what the criteria are for each individual trade but I'm sure it will all depend on your training, time in and of course the most important thing, "needs of the service"!!

[Nauticus]

According to my superiors, this is incorrect. If you are trade qualified to QL5A, have your two years' seniority, and you are not doing an OT as well, there should be no rank relinquishment upon doing a CT to Reg F.

Like really, you do know that not all reservists are one-night-a-week soldiers? Some of us actually work 40 hrs a week in the PRes. A lot of us, as a matter of fact.

If you look up the promotions guidelines, you will see that the rate for being promoted is the same for all ranks other than Private to Corporal (shorter in the Reserves) and MWO to CWO (longer in the Reserves).

I'm not taking anything away from the reserves, but when it takes less time to get promoted from Pte to Cpl, plus less actual training, you can't expect to keep your rank in the reg force. They do take this into account. With that said, if you've proven yourself in the reserves, you may keep your rank should you also complete the other criteria that you mentioned.

The reserves are fantastic at what they do, but I (and in general, the CF) don't equate a part-time role to a full-time role. If you ARE on a full-time contract, that is one of the many variables that they will look at, but if you aren't, a part-time job should not and is not looked at equal to the full time reg force in terms of rank.

[George Wallace]

I'm not taking anything away from the reserves, but when it takes less time to get promoted from Pte to Cpl, plus less actual training, you can't expect to keep your rank in the reg force. They do take this into account. With that said, if you've proven yourself in the reserves, you may keep your rank should you also complete the other criteria that you mentioned.

The reserves are fantastic at what they do, but I (and in general, the CF) don't equate a part-time role to a full-time role. If you ARE on a full-time contract, that is one of the many variables that they will look at, but if you aren't, a part-time job should not and is not looked at equal to the full time reg force in terms of rank.

Not all Courses, nor all Trades, in the Reserves get a lower quality of training as you allude to.  There are Trades that get the EXACT SAME training as the Regular Force, and in some cases better.  So don't fool yourself with the idea that Reservists get less training and experience.  Every QL5A Crse I have instructed on has been made up of both Reg and Reserve candidates, all meeting the same required levels as laid out in the QL5A TP.  There is only one QL5A TP in this Trade and it is for both Reg and Reserve.  Not all Trades are the same, so do not GENERALIZE all as being lesser than the Reg Force.

At the same time, there are getting to be some huge "training deltas" being developed in other Trades that really leave the Reservists in that Trade totally liking in the skills required of Reg Force Members in that Trade.  Armour is one such Trade, where the lack of Vehs, Radios, and Wpns of the type used by their Regular Force counterparts has created a whole lack of "trained Reservists" to create a pool to draw from.  An unfortunate situation of lack of money and equipment to properly equip the Regular Force, let alone the Reserves.

So take the fol as good advice:

No body can say for sure whether you will retain your rank with a CT. When I did I had 4 years as a Reserve. 2 1/2 full time and several deployments with the RegF. I lost it all and went in as an OD with QL3 and one year towards seniority. Today it all depends on what the Occupation Manager decides you will be offered. I don't know what the criteria are for each individual trade but I'm sure it will all depend on your training, time in and of course the most important thing, "needs of the service"!!

[clericalchronicals]

Woooo...clerk intervention...clerk intervention...lol.

Okie dokie, so the CT rank and qualification question...eep.  Lets start off by breaking it up...two items...first, rank.

CMP Released a policy some time ago that authorized career managers of distressed occupations to offer CT's to personnel remaining in the same occupation transfer into a "controlled rank" (MCpl/MS +)  example, PRes CPO2 RMS Clerk CT's to the Reg Force as RMS Clerk, the CM needs 3 MWO/CPO2 RMS Clerks, therefore, can offer transfer to the reg force as a CPO2.  Now, let's mix it up a bit.  Same CPO2 CT's but the CM doesn't need any MWO/CPO2 but needs 10 WO/PO1, the CM will offer transfer as PO1 RMS Clerk.

Now...if the occupation is not distressed, lets say, that same CPO2 RMS Clerk would be offered transfer as LS RMS Clerk.

In addition to all that jazz, when the person transfers, they have to courier all of their old PER's to the Reg Force PER Processing Centre in Ottawa to be scanned in.  So, let's say the CPO2 ct'd and was accepted as a CPO2.  They have 5 immediate PER's from their time as a CPO2 in the reserves, good odds they will get promoted to CPO1 the following year.  Obviously depending on promotion forecasts...so on and so forth.

Now for part 2, qualifications...CDA HQ is the authority on ALL qualification, Reg Force and Res Force.  One's off the top of my head that I can promise you are "transferable" qualifications;

BMQ (Can be BRT)
SQ
PLQ (CF PLQ, PLQ-L, JLC, CLC)
ILQ (SLC)

***ALL SUPPORT OCCUPATIONS!!!!!!***  RMS Clerk, Supply Tech, Cook, Steward (although now an Operations Group Occupation).

The more technical occupations are on a case by case basis.  Regardless, ANY qualification can be transferred using a PLAR...Prior Learning Assessment.  Basically, if you are Res Force MP QL5 Qualified, and you CT, you won't be granted MP QL5, but if you submit a PLAR to CDA HQ and you have ResF MP QL5 and two Class C tours to Afghanistan as an MP...well, you can figure it out!

Cheers!

[TimBit]

As well, I seem to recall frm reading the policy multiple times that if you hold an uncontrolled rank (Pte, Cpl, 2Lt, Lt, Capt) then you will not lose your rank. Certainly all the officers CT I have seen have followed that rule.

[JMesh]

For information on rank protection, you'd want to refer to CF Mil Pers Instr 03/08, para 4.7. Available on page 9 of this document: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/doc/03-08-eng.pdf

[clericalchronicals]

TimBit...you are on the money there. Uncontrolled ranks are generally left as is.  The only case is when the member doesn't meet the time prerequisites for that rank (ie.  ResF Cpl after 2 years CT's, they are reverted to Pte on CT).

Cheers!

[Celticgirl]

TimBit...you are on the money there. Uncontrolled ranks are generally left as is.  The only case is when the member doesn't meet the time prerequisites for that rank (ie.  ResF Cpl after 2 years CT's, they are reverted to Pte on CT).

Cheers!

No, this is not the case anymore.  I will have 2 years in April, will just be finished my 5's, and will get promoted to Cpl.  A WO at D Mil C (the folks that handle CTs) assured me that I would get my CT offer as a Cpl.  They *cannot* take an uncontrolled rank away, 2 years, 4 years, doesn't matter.  It used to be that they would revert you to Pte if you didn't have the equivalent of 4 yrs in + promotion to Cpl upon transferring to the RegF, but that has changed in the past couple of years.

[TimBit]

Wow, so it would then indeed confirm that it is quicker to go reserves and get promoted before going reg force. How odd...

[Celticgirl]

Wow, so it would then indeed confirm that it is quicker to go reserves and get promoted before going reg force. How odd...

Yes, and this is a relatively new thing, so I am told.  Our MWO told me the other day, "This is your only freebie...enjoy it."  LOL

People can't always rely on that 2 years, though...it depends a lot of your CoC and how proactive they are (and you as well: keep asking for the career courses you need until you get them).  You need your 5's to get promoted to Cpl in the PRes, unlike the RegF  (more than half the ppl on my upcoming 5's will be Cpls, all RegF). 

[Oh to be purple]

.........You need your 5's to get promoted to Cpl in the PRes, unlike the RegF  (more than half the ppl on my upcoming 5's will be Cpls, all RegF).

They may already be Cpls without their QL5, but don't forget they in all likelyhood have more time in trade and at least 3 years of service and more likely closer to 4 years.

[George Wallace]

They may already be Cpls without their QL5, but don't forget they in all likelyhood have more time in trade and at least 3 years of service and more likely closer to 4 years.

Whom are you talking about here?  If they are not Trade Qualified, I don't see how they can have that much more TI in their Trade.  As for Reservists becoming Cpls in less time, that is only for those who can commit to training and accomplish those prerequisites to be promoted.   Some, perhaps many, depending on availability of crses and instructors, may take three or four years to become Cpls in the Reserves as well.  In your books, that would also be a fair amount of TI, albeit not a 24/7/365(6 ).

[Celticgirl]

They may already be Cpls without their QL5, but don't forget they in all likelyhood have more time in trade and at least 3 years of service and more likely closer to 4 years.

My point was that the PRes does not have "acting lacking" ranks.  Ergo, you need your 5's in the PRes to be promoted to Cpl.  The upside being that you can accomplish this in as little as 2 years.  I am aware that to get promoted to Cpl in the RegF usually takes 4 years of "time in", but they don't need their 5's to get it. 

I'll be the only reservist on my course and likely the person with the least "time in", so it should be interesting.  Fortunately, I have been given many responsibilities in my OR (talk about being 'fed through a firehose'), so hopefully that will help me in keeping up.

[Eowyn]

My point was that the PRes does not have "acting lacking" ranks.  Ergo, you need your 5's in the PRes to be promoted to Cpl.

That may be the case in the Air Reserve, but in the Army Reserve there are "acting lacking" ranks.  True they are rare.   For the CSS trades, Army Reserve, Pte only need QL3 and 2 years Time in Service.

[Brasidas]

My point was that the PRes does not have "acting lacking" ranks.  Ergo, you need your 5's in the PRes to be promoted to Cpl.  The upside being that you can accomplish this in as little as 2 years.  I am aware that to get promoted to Cpl in the RegF usually takes 4 years of "time in", but they don't need their 5's to get it. 

I'll be the only reservist on my course and likely the person with the least "time in", so it should be interesting.  Fortunately, I have been given many responsibilities in my OR (talk about being 'fed through a firehose'), so hopefully that will help me in keeping up.

As Eowyn said, acting lacking corporals exist in the reserve. Knew one who didn't even have his QL3 mod 2 (sig op). Promoted two years after enrolment date, completed his mod 2 twelve months after that, then deployed overseas as a corporal.

Two year corporal's virtually automatic, barring somebody in the CoC taking a disliking to the private in question. Haven't seen somebody with just BMQ/SQ get it, but it's possible even without completing QL3 or DP1.

[George Wallace]

As Eowyn said, acting lacking corporals exist in the reserve. Knew one who didn't even have his QL3 mod 2 (sig op). Promoted two years after enrolment date, completed his mod 2 twelve months after that, then deployed overseas as a corporal.

Two year corporal's virtually automatic, barring somebody in the CoC taking a disliking to the private in question. Haven't seen somebody with just BMQ/SQ get it, but it's possible even without completing QL3 or DP1.

I am not sure that most units would follow a similar policy as your unit seems to have done.  This does affect the "credibility" of the member, the unit, and the rank.

[agc]

My point was that the PRes does not have "acting lacking" ranks.

The reserves will not allow an acting rank, lacking a leadership qualification.  E.g. One cannot be a Master Corporal without PLQ qualification.  Lacking trade qualifications is allowed.  So, a Master Corporal in the reserve with PLQ, could lack QL5.

[Brasidas]

I am not sure that most units would follow a similar policy as your unit seems to have done.  This does affect the "credibility" of the member, the unit, and the rank.

I don't disagree.

However, said member really was one of the best sigs in the unit, got his qualifications dealt with when and where they could be done, and was selected for promotion based on time in grade and experience. He trained on the kit extensively through OJT, had more hands-on time than several of the corporals in the unit, and was an effective mentor.

I can think of several incompetent ones who affect their own credibility, that of the unit, and the rank. I repeatedly supervised an incompetent corporal as a private myself. I know of one disciplinary failure at CFSCE (reserve) in the last four years, and zero training failures. Having a second  trades course does not a good signaler make, any more than four years does.

[Celticgirl]

As Eowyn said, acting lacking corporals exist in the reserve. Knew one who didn't even have his QL3 mod 2 (sig op). Promoted two years after enrolment date, completed his mod 2 twelve months after that, then deployed overseas as a corporal.

Well, deployment would be different; Class C is treated as RegF in most respects, acting/lacking rank included.  A Cpl I worked with was deployed as an 'acting' MCpl, but reverted back to Cpl afterwards because, as she was told, "There is no acting/lacking in the reserves".  I also work with a Pte who was a Cpl with 4 yrs and her 5's in the RegF, who released and re-enrolled in a different trade but was offered Pte because she did not have her 5's in the new trade.  When she questioned it, she was told, "There is no acting/lacking in the reserves." 

Interesting that the Army and Air Force differ on this, though.  I wonder what the Navy's policy is on acting/lacking ranks.   

Does anyone have a ref (pub) handy on the differing policies for acting/lacking in the reserves? 

[CDN Aviator]

  A Cpl I worked with was deployed as an 'acting' MCpl, but reverted back to Cpl afterwards

It is more likely that this person was deployed WSE - While So employed - vice "acting " for the tour.

[PuckChaser]

The reserves will not allow an acting rank, lacking a leadership qualification.  E.g. One cannot be a Master Corporal without PLQ qualification.  Lacking trade qualifications is allowed.  So, a Master Corporal in the reserve with PLQ, could lack QL5.

That's changed, I've seen a lot of acting lack ranks in the PRes now. Sgts finally getting their QL6a, MCpls without their QL5s.

[kratz]

Interesting that the Army and Air Force differ on this, though.  I wonder what the Navy's policy is on acting/lacking ranks.   

Does anyone have a ref (pub) handy on the differing policies for acting/lacking in the reserves?

NavRes normally does not do acting lacking, instead they occasionally rely on 'while so employed' (WSE). I do not have the messages at home, but MARCORD 9-1 covers NavRes pers management.

There is a clarifying NAVRESGEN clearly indicating anyone who had a WSE promotion will not have that time credited in the higher rank.

[Celticgirl]

It is more likely that this person was deployed WSE - While So employed - vice "acting " for the tour.

Now that you mention it, yes, I believe it was WSE.  Good catch.

NavRes normally does not do acting lacking, instead they occasionally rely on 'while so employed' (WSE). I do not have the messages at home, but MARCORD 9-1 covers NavRes pers management.

There is a clarifying NAVRESGEN clearly indicating anyone who had a WSE promotion will not have that time credited in the higher rank.

Seen.  Thanks for the info, Kratz.

That's changed, I've seen a lot of acting lack ranks in the PRes now. Sgts finally getting their QL6a, MCpls without their QL5s.

This one has me scratching my head.  I can't get promoted to Cpl unless and until I graduate from my QL5, so how is someone promoted to the 'appointment' of MCpl without it? 

[airmich]

This one has me scratching my head.  I can't get promoted to Cpl unless and until I graduate from my QL5, so how is someone promoted to the 'appointment' of MCpl without it?

I was appointed to MCpl without my QL5.  Granted, it was acting/lacking.  Usually a member will have their QL5, get their MCpl and then go on JLC/PLQ.  In my case, I already had my JLC, got my MCpl and then did my QL5.

[Brasidas]

Well, deployment would be different; Class C is treated as RegF in most respects, acting/lacking rank included.

He was a class A reservist at the time. He completed the second half of his QL3 after well over a year as a class A reservist acting/lacking corporal, deployed, and returned to the reserve. He's a class A reservist again, still a corporal, and still doesn't have his QL5.

[Celticgirl]

I'm starting to suspect that my coworkers were not told the whole truth.  Hmmm...

[Nerf herder]

Then there is this little tidbit of info that is left out, from the perspective of the Armour trade -

When you do show up in your new Reg Force place of employment as a Cpl you are expected to pull your weight and conduct yourself as such, not coming in acting like a no hook Pte with only 2 years under your belt.

Remember, those two chevrons mean something to the people with only one (or none at all) chevron. They have been through the training system by Cpls of a high standard and will expect you to be the same. More often than not the Ptes will have more cumulative TI than you as well and loads of work experience. As an example, I have 3 Tprs currently outperforming the CT Cpls.

Failure to perform adequately not only will you be sorted out by your superiors but also earning respect of your peers and subordinates will be an uphill battle.

I've had a few CTs come in to my office for Tp interviews and state that they'd rather have gone through St Jean and done all their courses over again.

Regards

[Celticgirl]

Der Panzerkommandant,

There are two things that I hope will help me with the CT process: (1) I have had all RegF trg (Air Reserve), (2) I have worked in a severely understaffed OR for the past 10 mos and had to learn and do things that a Pte doesn't normally learn/do in the year following QL3 trg.

On the other hand, I see what you are saying, and it does worry me.  I've expressed these concerns to my CC but she believes I have enough experience to be able to keep up and she says I am a very fast learner (let's hope so) and a hard worker.  I know I'll be at a disadvantage, though, and will have to prove myself more at my new unit than Cpls with far more TI and experience.  It's going to be 'sink or swim' for sure, and to be perfectly honest, I am nervous as heck. 

[Nerf herder]

Der Panzerkommandant,

There are two things that I hope will help me with the CT process: (1) I have had all RegF trg (Air Reserve), (2) I have worked in a severely understaffed OR for the past 10 mos and had to learn and do things that a Pte doesn't normally learn/do in the year following QL3 trg.

On the other hand, I see what you are saying, and it does worry me.  I've expressed these concerns to my CC but she believes I have enough experience to be able to keep up and she says I am a very fast learner (let's hope so) and a hard worker.  I know I'll be at a disadvantage, though, and will have to prove myself more at my new unit than Cpls with far more TI and experience.  It's going to be 'sink or swim' for sure, and to be perfectly honest, I am nervous as heck. 

If your CC at 403 thinks you're GTG, then more than likely you are.

Regards

[Celticgirl]

If your CC at 403 thinks you're GTG, then more than likely you are.

Regards

Thank you.   I hope you are right. 

[agc]

Sorry to bring this back.  I missed a few posts on this thread.

That's changed, I've seen a lot of acting lack ranks in the PRes now. Sgts finally getting their QL6a, MCpls without their QL5s.

Right, this is basically what I said, just in a different way.  Managed to get into the CFAO this morning (it's 49-5 for Reserves if anyone needs it, but not avail on the internet at the moment).  Para 8 states that  a leadership qualification cannot be waived in respect of promoting a member to the next rank.  So the situations you describe are legit, but a Cpl seeking promotion to MCpl cannot be lacking the PLQ for example.

This one has me scratching my head.  I can't get promoted to Cpl unless and until I graduate from my QL5, so how is someone promoted to the 'appointment' of MCpl without it?

P Res promotion policy is different from Reg F.  The same CFAO as above refers (vice 49-4 for Reg F).  See Annex A Appendix 1.  Your QL3 (aka QL1) is the required occupational qual.

They *cannot* take an uncontrolled rank away, 2 years, 4 years, doesn't matter.  It used to be that they would revert you to Pte if you didn't have the equivalent of 4 yrs in + promotion to Cpl upon transferring to the RegF, but that has changed in the past couple of years.

If you see:

For information on rank protection, you'd want to refer to CF Mil Pers Instr 03/08, para 4.7. Available on page 9 of this document: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/doc/03-08-eng.pdf

They can protect an uncontrolled rank, but only if certain criteria are met.

[JMesh]

P Res promotion policy is different from Reg F.  The same CFAO as above refers (vice 49-4 for Reg F).  See Annex A Appendix 1.  Your QL3 (aka QL1) is the required occupational qual.

Actually, it looks like that may have changed. DAOD 5031-8 notes the same QLs for both RegF and PRes, though it also notes that the course itself may be different, and when it is, shall be named as such (PRes QL3, PRes QL5, etc.)

[agc]

Good eye.  However, this reference describes the framework for Professional Development.  The CFAO is the actual career policy that governs promotion authorities.

[clericalchronicals]

If you see:

They can protect an uncontrolled rank, but only if certain criteria are met.

Actually, take that reference one step further, to Para 4.3, specifically where they speak of the "RPE" or review of previous experience.  Mark my words, just because you are a Cpl in the reserves does not by any means make you eligible to retain that rank in the RegF.  I've processed enough of these files to be able to say that.  Cheers.